Simple transfer switch to entire panel

[R-mm]

Tis the season for transfer switch wiring inquiries.

Is is possible to wire an xfer switch to the entire panel and to responsibly turn off breakers that would overload the generator? I plan to start with a tiny generator and work up if I feel its needed and don't want to limit myself with the xfer switch wiring nor do I want to spend a lot on it upfront. I can wire it myself.

Thanks

 

[Jim_No_Garage]

Sounds like you are asking about an interlock for your panel.

It's a mechanical linkage between the main breaker and a specially positioned breaker in the panel, allowing only 1 of the 2 breakers to be connected to the panel at the same time.

What is the make/model of your panel?

Most MFG's make an interlock or a 3rd party makes a more expensive kit.

cheers

Jim

 

[R-mm]

Its a Ge Load center.

 

[R-mm]

I suppose an added complication here is that there are main disconnects in my condo building's electrical room, but I do not presently have a main breaker in my load center.

 

[klassenl]

.........condo building..........

Can of worms. Sorry that's all I got.

 

[R-mm]

useless, why respond

 

[6PTsocket]

Sounds like you are asking about an interlock for your panel.

It's a mechanical linkage between the main breaker and a specially positioned breaker in the panel, allowing only 1 of the 2 breakers to be connected to the panel at the same time.

What is the make/model of your panel?

Most MFG's make an interlock or a 3rd party makes a more expensive kit.

cheers

Jim

That is the route I went with only the central air turned off. My portable can carry everything else. There is another approach that I like better. There is an automatic transfer switch that plugs in between the house and the electric meter. There is a receptacle underneath for the generator. As soon as power fails the switch connected the house wiring switches to the receptacle and returns to ulility power when it returns. Some power companies offer it for installation. Mine seemed to have no objection to installing it if I bought it but does not offer it. The only tools needed are whatever it takes for them to pull the meter. Probably just a pair of cutters to cut the seal.

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[matt_i]

I googled "whole house transfer switch"

This is just one of many links. I didn't study it enough to determine what Home and Business mean.

http://www.steadypower.com/categories.php?category=Transfer-Switches/Manual/Whole-House-or-Business

In my mind the automatic switch is something like a giant 400A capable relay. Which is electrically held in the closed position by the utility power. IOW utility powers the relay coil. So when utility is lost the relay goes to normally closed set of contacts and that's where the generator power is wired.

Once the utility gets enough voltage to pull in the coil once again, the contacts swing back the other way. Since its "break before make" the two power sources are always isolated.

The downside that I see is installing such a full-panel transfer switch is that now the meter has to be pulled and new conduit routed to the T-switch box, presumably requiring new longer conductors, then conduit has to be run to the main panel to the main lugs. Lots of hefty wires to fit and land. The bottom line is it's not going to be a 15 minute outage to put this in. Couple of hours if all materials are there and everything goes perfectly. If not, the outage length will grow.

I get the feeling around here if the utility gets involved in pulling the meter they want that activity to be joined to permits, not "just so I can move some stuff around".

 

[tyme2par4]

I would still suggest the interlock. Just have the main disconnect shut off, and install a main breaker in your panel. It should be as simple as pulling the wire off the lugs, installing the breaker, and reinstalling the wires in the new breaker lugs.
Home depot probably has the interlock kit for your panel. They may have main breakers as well.

 

[pattenp]

I suppose an added complication here is that there are main disconnects in my condo building's electrical room, but I do not presently have a main breaker in my load center.

Isn't there restrictions in place for the condo that prohibits the use of a generator? I assume this is something you have checked on? But if it's okay, then as suggested you need to convert the main lug panel to a main breaker panel to use an interlock.

 

[R-mm]

Thanks very much guys these are the types of ideas I was looking for.
I am the president of the very small condo association and there are no restrictions on generators however the service entry, meters and primary disconnects are in a room where it is not suitable for me to do work, otherwise the whole house switch idea is a nice one.

That leaves the interlock or a conventional transfer switch. The later may be easier since I have maxed out my panel including piggybacks and the interlock kits I'm seeing aren't all that inexpensive, especially once you add in the new main breaker I'll need. Suppose I'll go for a conventional 6 circuit kind of thing.

 

[R-mm]

Sorry if I'm asking the same question more than one way I don't have the exact vocabulary for these parts. Could I do something like this where I leave the meter and primary disconnect in the remote electrical room but I move the incoming service to a 200 amp rated transfer switch?

 

[Bad Habit]

Yes, if you have the opportunity to intercept the feeder to the unit. You would just put in a Double throw switch of the correct capacity that you would tie the generator feed into. It would be a manual switch and only able to connect to one source at a time, either utility, or generator. You would need a 3 pole switch as you would have to switch the neutral too and ground the neutral at the generator. In this scenario, the entire sub-panel in your unit would be fed by the generator so it may have to be sized for the entire load, even if you're thinking you would just shut of unnecessary circuits (because that will be forgotten when you go to transfer over).

 

[R-mm]

Yes for sure a 200amp 3 pole double throw switch... which... seems to be a very expensive thing! Maybe the good old 6-circuit xfer is the way to do it.

 

[Mr_fixit]

I suppose an added complication here is that there are main disconnects in my condo building's electrical room, but I do not presently have a main breaker in my load center.

Yep, that's a complication. If you had a panel with a main breaker, that was relatively new , a generator interlock added to the panel would work best.
Here , you don't, but you could solve that by adding one, but there's no space for the generator interlock breaker to be added, and your box might not have one available, because of it's age.

strike three , you're out.

 

[Bad Habit]

Yes for sure a 200amp 3 pole double throw switch... which... seems to be a very expensive thing! Maybe the good old 6-circuit xfer is the way to do it.

But then you have to intercept those 6 circuits. Either this has to sit in your unit next to or near your existing panel and run the generator feed to to it (not sure of the distances to where the generator is planned), or you place it closer to the generator and extend the circuits down and back.

Never simple...

 

[R-mm]

That much is simple in my case. I can park the 6-circuit on the wall next to the 200amp panel which is in the garage which is ~8' from a place I can park the gen. If I want to be propper I can put a nema box on the ext. wall and hard wire to the xfer, if I want to wing it I can put a 2x4 under the garage door and run the cord below it into the panel.

 

[Bad Habit]

Yep, that's the way to go. Doing a similar set up but able to do it right at the meter (the meter enclosure also has some circuits in it, I'm intercepting the well pump there). This is what I'm using with a ~5kw portable gen and cord feed.

https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Milbank-MMTS301L/p17640.html

 

[Crazyjake8493]

I think the easiest route here is a small 6 circuit transfer switch next to the main panel, for things you really need during an outage.

If you really need to be able to power everything, turn off the main disconnect in the electrical room and convert your main lug panel to a main breaker, as someone already suggested. That would allow you to use an interlock and tie the generator in at your panel. To make room in your panel, you could either add a sub panel next to it, or replace the whole panel for a larger main breaker panel.

 

[R-mm]

Dad's upgrading to a fancy generac so I get his xfer switchs free! Making me feel flush maybe I'll go for a nicer inverter such as the well reviewed units from HF. I'm thinking 2kw might be fine - I have all LED lighting so thats maybe 2amp max, a 4.5amp fridge and a gas furnace. No a/c, no well pump (city water) no other pumps. Gas hot water tank, all gas cooking.

 

[6PTsocket]

I googled "whole house transfer switch"

This is just one of many links. I didn't study it enough to determine what Home and Business mean.

http://www.steadypower.com/categories.php?category=Transfer-Switches/Manual/Whole-House-or-Business

In my mind the automatic switch is something like a giant 400A capable relay. Which is electrically held in the closed position by the utility power. IOW utility powers the relay coil. So when utility is lost the relay goes to normally closed set of contacts and that's where the generator power is wired.

Once the utility gets enough voltage to pull in the coil once again, the contacts swing back the other way. Since its "break before make" the two power sources are always isolated.

The downside that I see is installing such a full-panel transfer switch is that now the meter has to be pulled and new conduit routed to the T-switch box, presumably requiring new longer conductors, then conduit has to be run to the main panel to the main lugs. Lots of hefty wires to fit and land. The bottom line is it's not going to be a 15 minute outage to put this in. Couple of hours if all materials are there and everything goes perfectly. If not, the outage length will grow.

I get the feeling around here if the utility gets involved in pulling the meter they want that activity to be joined to permits, not "just so I can move some stuff around".

The auto transfer switch works as you described and nothing is done inside. There is no wiring. You plug your portable into the receptacle on the transfer switch. The meter is just plugged in. How long could it possibly take to yank meter, plug in transfer switch and plug in meter? Two minutes? As I said, it is offered by some power companies. Since it is the power company employees that are at risk with impropper back feeds, I am sure the town inspectors are perfectly happy to let the utility deal with their own system and their own installations. There is no permit involved. They are not cheap to buy. I don't know who owns it if the power company installs it. Do you buy it, rent it, or pay a one time fee and they own it, like they own the meter. I don't know.

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[theoldwizard1]

Is is possible to wire an xfer switch to the entire panel and to responsibly turn off breakers that would overload the generator?

You want an interlock, but you will have to be responsible for turning off big loads. For the "average" homeowner, if you turn off all of your 240V appliances (stove, water heater, dryer, A/C) you won't have a problem. Most well pumps are small enough it won't overload the generator (unless you are making bacon and eggs in an electric skillet, with the coffee pot, toaster and microwave turned on ! )

You don't have to worry about damaging the generator. It will have a breaker to protect itself.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Wiring a "whole house" transfer switch requires a professional !

I don't know if it is a code requirement but, usually when a whole house transfer switch is installed the generator MUST be sized to carry the whole load.

 

[rlitman]

You want an interlock, but you will have to be responsible for turning off big loads...
You don't have to worry about damaging the generator. It will have a breaker to protect itself.

Some generators do, but not all. Some rely on an overload forcing the engine to stall (that's an older setup that required heavier internal wiring).

However, with the interlock, you'll have a breaker that handles the generator inlet, so you'll have a breaker protecting the generator in your panel.