Single phase to 3 phase

[Cameronlunz12]

I recently bought a 2010 torin big red wheel balancer model number- tre0448
And serial number- 910010314 for $500 at an auction. It came with all the cones and a bunch of wheel weights. But the problem is I just got it home and saw it was 3 phase. I’ve been looking online for ways to get three phase, but all I’ve found is either the rotary converter, get 3 phase to the house from the power company, or a vhd. Which the first two would be fine if they weren’t so expensive or the vhd I’ve read would work perfect for just the motor, but I don’t know if the computer would take the power. I would convert the machine to single phase, but I don’t know if the computer will take single phase power. I’ve also looked for more info on this changer or a manual and have found nothing. And a coworker was Telling me I could get 3 phase power by just using three breakers, but I don’t know how true that is. So would I be able to just use three breakers? Or would it just be better to try and sell the changer and find a single phase unit. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

 

[Cameronlunz12]

I wasn’t able to post my pictures of it because they won’t load, I’ll try when I get home.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I recently bought a 2010 torin big red wheel balancer model number- tre0448
And serial number- 910010314 for $500 at an auction. It came with all the cones and a bunch of wheel weights. But the problem is I just got it home and saw it was 3 phase. I’ve been looking online for ways to get three phase, but all I’ve found is either the rotary converter, get 3 phase to the house from the power company, or a VFD. Which the first two would be fine if they weren’t so expensive or the VFD I’ve read would work perfect for just the motor, but I don’t know if the computer would take the power. I would convert the machine to single phase, but I don’t know if the computer will take single phase power. I’ve also looked for more info on this changer or a manual and have found nothing. And a coworker was Telling me I could get 3 phase power by just using three breakers, but I don’t know how true that is. So would I be able to just use three breakers? Or would it just be better to try and sell the changer and find a single phase unit. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

its called a VFD

the computer is probably single phase. only large servers use 3 phase power

open the machine up and check the power supply for the computer

as to the three pole breaker, that wont give you 3 phase power on a single phase panel. your coworker only knows enough to be dangerous

what may be able to do is buy a single phase motor and rewire the power supply for the computer

can you post pics of the computer and its power supply?

I wasn’t able to post my pictures of it because they won’t load, I’ll try when I get home.

you have to have 5 posts before you can post pictures

 

[Cameronlunz12]

Okay thank you. I’ll look for a single phase motor for it. And I can get some pictures of the inside tomorrow, this is all I’ve got right now

 

[Cameronlunz12]

These are the rest of the pictures I have.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

looks like 3/4hp motor

need to see how the computer is connected.

plug doesnt have a neutral so it may be a 240v single phase power supply on the computer

 

[Cameronlunz12]

looks like 3/4hp motor

need to see how the computer is connected.

plug doesnt have a neutral so it may be a 240v single phase power supply on the computer

Okay, the machine is at my parents house right now so I will take some pictures of the computer tomorrow

 

[a_whale]

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[u3b3rg33k]

Okay thank you. I’ll look for a single phase motor for it. And I can get some pictures of the inside tomorrow, this is all I’ve got right now

it looks like a 8 pole 3 phase motor (900RPM). good luck finding a 8 pole single phase motor in that frame.

a 1/2hp phase converter VFD is under $200.
https://www.driveswarehouse.com/ode-3-120023-1f12

if that nameplate is right it's a perfect match. 2.3A drive, 2.3A motor.

you could step up to a 1HP drive to be safe, just breaks $200:
https://www.driveswarehouse.com/ode-3-120043-1f12

 

[Cameronlunz12]

it looks like a 8 pole 3 phase motor (900RPM). good luck finding a 8 pole single phase motor in that frame.

a 1/2hp phase converter VFD is under $200.
https://www.driveswarehouse.com/ode-3-120023-1f12

if that nameplate is right it's a perfect match. 2.3A drive, 2.3A motor.

you could step up to a 1HP drive to be safe, just breaks $200:
https://www.driveswarehouse.com/ode-3-120043-1f12

Okay, I’d be fine with the 1hp VFD, but would it work with the computer? Or would I just need to wire it in, in between the power supply and the motor itself. Or would the vfd power both the computer and the motor? Here are the pictures of the computer.

 

[RPH]

Vfd supplies motor only. Control power source will be needed for what ever the devices call for ie. 120vac or 240 vac.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok where does the power cable connect to and where does the motor connect to?

The computer most likely controls the motor operation so im not sure how you would feed the motor separately from the computer.

The computer would need to control the VFD

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Okay, I’d be fine with the 1hp VFD, but would it work with the computer? Or would I just need to wire it in, in between the power supply and the motor itself. Or would the vfd power both the computer and the motor? Here are the pictures of the computer.

the computer doesn't need to know about the VFD.
you can use either the existing contactors or a new relay of appropriate coil voltage as dry contacts to tell the VFD to start - that's probably the "simplest" way to do it.

you will probably have to get out your multi-meter and trace out where the power goes. if there's no diagram I would start at the plug, figure out L1, L2, L3, Ground, and which terminals the transformer is fed from. those will likely become L1, L2, and L3 is probably only used for the motor(s).

 

[Cameronlunz12]

the computer doesn't need to know about the VFD.
you can use either the existing contactors or a new relay of appropriate coil voltage as dry contacts to tell the VFD to start - that's probably the "simplest" way to do it.

you will probably have to get out your multi-meter and trace out where the power goes. if there's no diagram I would start at the plug, figure out L1, L2, L3, Ground, and which terminals the transformer is fed from. those will likely become L1, L2, and L3 is probably only used for the motor(s).

The blue line is the power from the wall to the computer and the green one is from the computer to the motor. So would I be able to just wire the vfd in between the computer and the motor, and then change the plug so it’ll plug into single phase 220? Or is there more to it

 

[a_whale]

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[wyliesdiesels]

I can't see where all the wires are going on the circuit board mounted relays and terminal block, but the computer is being powered through that transformer that is running either between two legs or between one leg and neutral (not sure which are which on the terminal block). There are traces running away from the relays, probably just to the coils but I am questioning why those 3 large resistors are present at the bottom of the circuit board.

I can help further if you cut the zip tie holding that bundle of wires together and take a pic showing clearly where every wire routes between the terminal block and that row of relays, and also would be helpful to know which of the incoming 4 wires are L1, L2, L3 and neutral so we know how the transformer is connected. It is almost certainly connected between one phase and neutral, in which case 120V input will be perfect for it.

If you could send a pic that is high enough resolution to see the part numbers on the resistors and what I suspect are capacitors below the relays in your pic, that would give a good guess as to what they are being used for.

if you look at the pic of the plug that he posted, you would see that there is no neutral. its a 4-wire cord and 4-wire plug- 3 hots and a ground

 

[a_whale]

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[My Old Tools]

The computer already handles 3 phase internally. The VFD creates 3 phase out of your single phase shop power. Run the VFD at 60 hz and you're good to go.

 

[a_whale]

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[a_whale]

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[u3b3rg33k]

The VFD i linked is not intended to be used as a phase converter, and I expect it will error out or kill the electronics.

I assume cost is a primary concern, so I would suggest disconnecting the motor at the motor, and putting a new 240V coil relay across L1,L2. use that to close the run contacts on the drive, and wire the drive directly to the motor as per the drive's installation instructions.

you should be able to source a relay for $20 or so.

 

[a_whale]

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[a_whale]

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[Cameronlunz12]

If he has any problems with running the computer off of the output of the VFD (due to the non-sinusoidal nature of that output), then next step would be to rewire the transformer to the single phase. Being a transformer with filtering and a linear regulator on the output, he will probably be ok, but if not, this is next step.
Make sure to only run it at 60Hz! Otherwise you're definitely in for problems with the computer side.

So as long as I wire the VFD in between the plug and the machine it should work fine? And if I run it at 60hz it won’t mess with the computer at all? Also I can get more pictures of the computer board and cut that ziptie if you still want them.

 

[a_whale]

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[Norcal]

As much as I don’t like them, this may be a good application for a static phase converter or a RPC but that could get expensive to use a rotary phase converter. A RPC would be great but if the machine is lightly used a static converter would work & be cheap. The reason I do not like static converters is they start a 3 phase motor but then it cuts out & is being single phased while running losing one third of the horsepower of the machine in the process.

 

[a_whale]

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[u3b3rg33k]

So as long as I wire the VFD in between the plug and the machine it should work fine? And if I run it at 60hz it won’t mess with the computer at all? Also I can get more pictures of the computer board and cut that ziptie if you still want them.

the short answer is you need to know how this machine works to answer that question. without a schematic or a manual we can't begin to answer it.


I would assume there's a strain gauge or three and some kind of rotary encoder in there, but that's just guessing.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

correct me if im wrong but i thought a wheel balancer has sensing circuitry that senses where the weights are needed. this works in tandem with the motor to sense how the wheel is out of balance

 

[a_whale]

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[a_whale]

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[a_whale]

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[u3b3rg33k]

based on what i've seen tire balancers do, my bet is it does some form of DC braking/regen to stop the tire faster. that's probably what that power resistor is for.

that functionality would be replaced by the VFD, and can probably be ignored. The two drives I linked are a frame size 1, and do NOT have a brake chopper, but they do make those in the larger frame sizes (2 and above) with that feature. they cost more, of course.

this is a 2HP frame 2 drive with the brake chopper:
https://www.driveswarehouse.com/ode-3-220070-1f42

 

[a_whale]

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[u3b3rg33k]

That's my thoughts. we could also hunt down an ebay VFD to save money, but for instructional/planning purposes I figure list pricing is more useful. it does drive the price of the machine up, but it's harder to hunt down good links to used stuff for single phase input use.

 

[Cameronlunz12]

Also, Cameronlunz12, if you want to PM me, I can work with you directly and you can post the results here, that may be faster. I think this will be pretty easy once this power board and the connections are understood.

Okay, where can I message you at? Also I got some more pictures today that are clear.

 

[a_whale]

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[u3b3rg33k]

those smaller power resistors/capacitors look like snubbers to me, whale.

also this is the closest thing to a manual i've found:
https://www.joelsgaragegear.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/wheel-balancer-instruction-manual.pdf

it says 200RPM, which feels more accurate for what I've seen, which is in conflict with what I said about motor poles.

 

[a_whale]

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