Single Pour OK?

[ddawg16]

Well....the contractor called and said he is ready for inspection prior to the concrete pour on my 20' x 25' garage floor.....

He is doing a single pour....Is this ok?

When I would getting quotes, most of the contractors said they were going to do two pours....first the footing and stem wall and then come back and do the slab.

Tomorrow is a holiday so it will be Wed before the inspector comes out....should I assume all is well if he gives it his blessing?

And yes, I do plan to keep it wet and covered for 5-7 days to allow for slow proper drying...

 

[GSSFC]

it isn't possible to do the footings, frost walls and slab in one pour. that is three. they could do a floating or monolithic slab in one pour.

Tim

 

[ddawg16]

I should clarify...the stem wall will be about 12" high above the floor.....

 

[BillK]

John,
My 24x24 was done in one pour, but it is a single slab with footers combined. No stem walls. The sill plate is right on the slab, which is common in this area. It has been fine for about 25 years now, but when I did it I overkilled the specs. Footings were 18' wide 30" deep and the main slab is 6" with plenty of steel.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

In southern California I don't think you have a frost line problem, a monolith pour probably will work just fine. My 60x60 is a monolith pour, the outer 2 ft or so is about 18 to 20 inches deep and about a 4x4 ft area around each building column (metal building) is also about 18 inches deep. No problems after 8 years.

Charles

 

[dreamingmuscle]

Nothing wrong with a single pour in your area of the world.
________
Fujio Cho

 

[grits]

Well....the contractor called and said he is ready for inspection prior to the concrete pour on my 20' x 25' garage floor.....

He is doing a single pour....Is this ok?

When I would getting quotes, most of the contractors said they were going to do two pours....first the footing and stem wall and then come back and do the slab.

Tomorrow is a holiday so it will be Wed before the inspector comes out....should I assume all is well if he gives it his blessing?

And yes, I do plan to keep it wet and covered for 5-7 days to allow for slow proper drying...

I would suggest you do it in two pours, I'd have the footing & stem walls pourd first and let set for several weeks, Remember cement doen't dry, It's a chemical reaction called curing, once cured it becomes comcrete. Most all concrete reaches it's curing strength in or around 28 day, this is typical. Most importantly is the amount of steel used in the footings and stem walls.
I'd have the contractor provide an engineered design for you. Now you're ready for the slab or floor to be poured.
Let us know how it's going
Grits

 

[1320stang]

If you're wanting a stem wall above the finished floor, I don't know how it could be done. Working in construction I've done a mono pour with the foundation, stem walls and slab on top, then went back later and laid block on top of the slab, filled with grout and placed the anchor bolts. The slab had rebar that stuck above the slab.

 

[mikeyr]

Mine was poured last week, 20x22 one pour. Footers were about 18" deep and the stem wall is about 8" high above the slab. They did the same for me a few months ago and still no problems of course one slab is only 2 months old and the other 4 days old. They make it look pretty easy to do in one pour with the stem wall.

 

[ddawg16]

One more quick question....

What would you say is a 'reasonable' ramp from the driveway up into the garage. Right now there is about 2' from the existing driveway to where the opening of the garage is to be.

Up untill today the agreement was a 1" rise from the drive into the opeing of the garage and then about a 1/2" slop at most to the back.

I get home tonight and they have about 3 1/2" to 4" rise in that 2' space....

Couple that to them calling me today and saying they are ready for inspection on Wed....and don't plan on working tomorrow....and the only rebar they have is in the front....given their current pace, they have at least another full day of work.....

Add to that the fact that the project manager was making rumbles to my wife that he should maybe charge me more because the project is taking longer than it should...

Add to that, that as of Friday they will be 4 weeks into this project....

Add to that the fact that the new block wall that they installed already has a crack in it.....

And I'm about to crack.....this is a licensed contractor.....to say I am pissed right now is an understatement...........

 

[BooUrns!]

I would suggest you do it in two pours, I'd have the footing & stem walls pourd first and let set for several weeks, Remember cement doen't dry, It's a chemical reaction called curing, once cured it becomes comcrete. Most all concrete reaches it's curing strength in or around 28 day, this is typical. Most importantly is the amount of steel used in the footings and stem walls.
I'd have the contractor provide an engineered design for you. Now you're ready for the slab or floor to be poured.
Let us know how it's going
Grits

Actually the process is called Hydration. Concrete will reach 90% of it's design strength after 28 days but it will continue to harden throughout it's lifetime.

One more quick question....

What would you say is a 'reasonable' ramp from the driveway up into the garage. Right now there is about 2' from the existing driveway to where the opening of the garage is to be.

Up untill today the agreement was a 1" rise from the drive into the opeing of the garage and then about a 1/2" slop at most to the back.

I get home tonight and they have about 3 1/2" to 4" rise in that 2' space....

Couple that to them calling me today and saying they are ready for inspection on Wed....and don't plan on working tomorrow....and the only rebar they have is in the front....given their current pace, they have at least another full day of work.....

Add to that the fact that the project manager was making rumbles to my wife that he should maybe charge me more because the project is taking longer than it should...

Add to that, that as of Friday they will be 4 weeks into this project....

Add to that the fact that the new block wall that they installed already has a crack in it.....

And I'm about to crack.....this is a licensed contractor.....to say I am pissed right now is an understatement...........

Unless they're taking tommorrow off for Remembrance Day, I'd recommend you demand they show up and get the job done. Remember, you're the boss and you control the money.
Bo professional, don't swear or shout. ust tell them you want the work to be done according to the specifications you agreed upon originally. If you don't agree and they place the slab anyway, you could consider it a deficiency and reduce payment. It would have helped to have everything in writing before work began...

Is this project manager in charge of the crew who did the block wall and site prep work? If so. Fire him. 'Rumbling' to your wife is somewhat inappropriate and if he is managing the project, then he is responsible for making sure the project is on time and under budget. It's not your fault that he's incompetent. He needs to do his damn job and go manage the project.

 

[ddawg16]

Thanks Boo....that is pretty much what I was thinking.

Tomorrow morning I'll be calling the office and ask to speak the owner (owner of the contractors license). I'll 'explain' the problem and the follow up with an email (written documentation)....and then we will take it from there.

On Sat a buddy of my neighbor told me that I could notify them in writing that if the project was not completed by x day, that I could deduct say $250 per day untill it was done.....not sure I want to go that far....I want the project completed....

Bottom line....I really don't want to be one of the 'horror stories' you hear about. I want my garage floor....

 

[hidollartoys]

As a contractor I would not recommend that you become confrontational with the project manager. You will only get minimum requirement to pass code. Remember that code is the MINIMUM requirement. What you should do is contact the Owner or project manager and ask for a meeting prior to the pour to discuss the " couple things that you would like to review and refine prior to the finish pour". Be reasonable and ask a lot of questions. Express your concerns and be specific. Make a list. Site conditions will always trump the original quote/proposal and scope of work. You should also be flexible and sensitive to this. If some other sub did the site prep work and you did not verify his work then it will be difficult to strongarm the concrete sub now.

Did you hire this contractor on price, referral, license or did you actually contact his reference list and check out his previous projects. "Licensing and insurance a contractor does not make". Remember, an owner that does not perform the work himself just sends the lowest payed help or sub he can find to your house to perform the work. These employees/subs have nothing to lose or gain by being/not being professional. I dont care how long they have been in business, their employees are the ones that do the work. Maybe the project manager is close to retirement and does not care. Maybe he is a horse's *** and does not care. Maybe the owner is a ***** and does not care. These are also reasons to hire/not hire a specific contractor. This contracting business would be a great business if it were not for the contractors. And I am a contractor. This construction business is a give and take but all parties should be communicating throughout the project. Not just when things go wrong. Maybe some donuts and coffee will help with your presentation. I always try to give my customers more that they expected.

 

[ddawg16]

Thanks for the advice guys....
I sent an email this morning to their office outlining my concerns and asking that the owner call me. I will also follow up with a phone call.

Bottom line...I want the job done...but done right....

I have delt with three other contractors on this job...demolition, survey and tree removal. Except for maybe a one day slip in schedule (sh!t happens), everyone did their part and did it well. Why did I have to get the contractor from hell for the foundation...and I checked his license....I should have asked for references.....well, I won't make that mistake again.

I just hope I don't have the laborers knocking on my door telling me they didn't get paid and put a mechanics lien on my house....

 

[boiler7904]

One more quick question....

What would you say is a 'reasonable' ramp from the driveway up into the garage. Right now there is about 2' from the existing driveway to where the opening of the garage is to be.

Up untill today the agreement was a 1" rise from the drive into the opeing of the garage and then about a 1/2" slop at most to the back.

I get home tonight and they have about 3 1/2" to 4" rise in that 2' space....

That's pretty steep. 14.6% and 16.8% grades respectively. Depending on what you'll be driving into the garage, it may work. Is it possible to rework part of the driveway to reduce the slope at the apron? We typically use 1-2% at aprons on our commercial jobs.

On Sat a buddy of my neighbor told me that I could notify them in writing that if the project was not completed by x day, that I could deduct say $250 per day untill it was done.....not sure I want to go that far....I want the project completed....

I don't know about California contract law, but in Illinois that wouldn't be enforcable. Basically, you're trying to unilaterally modify the terms of the contract without his consent. The original signed contract would stand in court. Most contractors here won't sign a contract with a penalty clause unless there is also a performance bonus that pays them $X for every day they finish early.

 

[hidollartoys]

Again as a contractor, I offer the following for consideration: If you have had only 1 day of schedule slip with 4 contractors you are NOT HAVING ANY PROBLEMS. You are very lucky. Most construction schedules factor in several (depending on project size) slip days for each contractor. ONLY commercial projects would be run so tight. They too have slip days allowed in the contract. Maybe loosen up a bit before you blow a gasket. By the way you never mentioned if you have a performance clause in the contract. Do you have a written contract for the completed project or you doing the general contractor work (planning, hiring subs, scheduling, inspection, permits, etc) and subbing the seperate project segments as you go. Do all of the subs on the project know who all the other subs are? Face to face communication is far more productive than email or letters. You have to stay involved at ALL points of the project.
This CYA approach with "backed up in writing" is anti-productive and very confrontational. You dont want to piss-off your contractors/subs. There is no future in it. No one is perfect. Are you perfect at your job ALL the time? Do you provide 100% perfect product to your customers and/or co-workers?

There is more to the construction process than meets the eye. If there is a problem, 99% of the time it is because specific requirements were not adequately defined and communicated. The customer precieves one thing and the contractor/sub precieves something else. It must be understood that all constructed structures are a bundle of compromises. The biggest problem I face is the "ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS.......". I dont use subs because they traditionally do just enough to get paid and leave any issues for the next sub in to deal with. The concrete sub blames the site prep sub, the framing sub blames the concrete sub, the electrian blames the hvac guys who blame the plumbers and vice-versa-vica, the rock sub blames everyone before him, The rock finisher blames the hanger, the painter blames the finisher, the trimmer blames all the above. The point is the general has to be on top of all of this even before some of the work is even done. If you are the general you must know when to call the next sub in or you must identify any defficiencies that a previous sub left. You cant take it for granted that any sub will actually fix anything that a previous sub failed to do or left screwed up. Most times YOU as the general will have to fix these issues. The more you stay involved the closer to PERFECT the end product will be.

 

[ddawg16]

4 Contractors....

1. Demolition - Showed up on time...planned to have it complete in one day...so it took him 1.3 days....did an outstanding job...did an excellent job of cleaning up.

2. Tree Removal...he was one day late...but was quick and did the job right...once again, cleaned up his mess....except for the stump grinding material....I asked him to leave it for me.

3. Surveyor - Completed work as promised...and sent me wet stamped drawings showing where the property lines were.

4. Foundation Contractor - Per the contract was supposed to be done in 12-14 days....this Friday will make 4 weeks. I emailed them a copy of the approved foudation drawings before they quoted on the job...they even came out and looked over the empty space where the work was to be done.....as they dug down they came across roots from the tree that was removed....claimed it was my responsibility.....instead of working on the other 3 sides, they basically just stopped until I got back from England....

Instead of bringing in a back how to dig the trenches for the footings, they hired a couple of 'across the border' laborers....I never saw the same person more than two or three times....I would estimate that there have been about 10 different guys digging on the foundation....

If I had not pointed out details on the drawings....almost everything would be wrong...stem wall too short....pads not dug...etc. I'm not an expert but I know how to read the foundation drawing....especially since I drew it.

I did have engineering on this....had to since It's basically a 2 story structure....

Truth is, even though the company is a licensed contractor...I have my doubts about the project manager...everytime I turn around they are doing things the cheapest way they can....like the footing for the block wall is only about 6" thick and they use sacks of concrete...threw in some #4 rebar and dropped blocks on top of it...let it sit for a day and then started building the wall....now it's cracked.

I have been nice...up till now....I also did something stupid....I gave him $1000 from his next progress payment....he is supposed to get $3500 when he is ready to pour concrete.....he basically begged me to get it early....I should have stuck to my guns and said no...if he has money problems now...then he is going to have money problems when it's time to pay for the concrete.....

I think I'll insist on the concrete guy signing a unconditional waiver & release when he delivers....I don't want any mechanic liens.....

Hidollar....thanks for the input....

One last question....who would normally be responsible for removing the big pile of dirt left over from the foundation digging?

 

[hidollartoys]

Dawg, If there was no provision in writing to the site prep guy or concrete guy then it is your mess. This is the type of thing that falls through the cracks if you are not experienced with this type of project. You can not assume that all items will be delt with if they are not spelled out. The removal of the dirt is an expensive proposition IE truck, loader, driver/operator, dump site. On a customers garage project I did it cost me $500.00 to dispose of demo concrete and diggings. Since I gave "a cost not to exceed" I had to eat it because I let it slip by on the bid. I suspect your concrete guy will not be willing to remove the diggings. Some options would be to share it with neighbors, offer it to a landscape co., use some for back fill around garage/new drive(you will need more than you think), build raised planter beds/landscape your yard, backfill around your house, sell it, etc.

The concrete sub you have, as you already know, is problematic. This is my argument against hiring the lowest bidder. I see this type of thing all the time. Please dont get offended, but sometimes a homeowner gets in over their head for the sake of saving money. More often than not they get a vastly inferior job and dont save that much money. When they realize that they did not get what they expected it is usually to late. They will call me (or other reasonable above board contractor) and find that to fix the problems it will be sometimes(more often than not) equal to the original project. This is due to their lack of understanding of the DETAILS. While this seems simple, and it really is, the devil is in the details (the thousands of details). While professionals will sometimes miss something, they have the experience and knowledge to forgo problems by making adjustments on the fly.

 

[GSSFC]

I have been nice...up till now....I also did something stupid....I gave him $1000 from his next progress payment....he is supposed to get $3500 when he is ready to pour concrete.....he basically begged me to get it early....I should have stuck to my guns and said no...if he has money problems now...then he is going to have money problems when it's time to pay for the concrete.....

I think I'll insist on the concrete guy signing a unconditional waiver & release when he delivers....I don't want any mechanic liens.....

Hidollar....thanks for the input....

One last question....who would normally be responsible for removing the big pile of dirt left over from the foundation digging?

I would suggest you talk with the contractor and pay the concrete charge yourself when the delivery comes. That way you know it is done right. It shouldn't matter to the contractor if you deduct it. I always pay my concrete guys directly, and the contractors are happy to be cut out of the equation.

Tim

 

[ddawg16]

This is what is out there right now.....

They say they will be here by 7:30 in the morning and should have all the rebar done before noon.....

The inspector is scheduled....but I have no idea as to when he is going to show up......but my money is on him NOT signing off on the rebar.....

This is turning into a real nightmare.....

I think I need to charge up the battery on the video camera.....I can see him walking off the job refusing to do it per code/contract/spec....I want it on video so I can show it in court....which is where I think this is heading....

What really ***** is that if I had been able to get the contractor I really wanted originally back in June....this would not be an issue....but because he is so good...he is not up to his hair roots in good paying comercial jobs.....no time to do mine.....and his price was a little cheaper....and he had good references.....

 

[tatra]

d/d.......maybe the thing to do is cancell the project and take the time to do it right...........hell man, if i had some vacation time i would come down and give you free labour[ minus beer and food]...........the disappointment of a half assed job will be there forever.............whatever you decide, i do hope it works out...............the whole situation just ***** pal.................good luck................btw, do you come to winnipeg on biz?..............

 

[ddawg16]

What the building inspector says tomorrow will impact on whether I kick the contractor off the job or not....if he says it looks pretty good but just needs a 'few' adjustments...ok...let them move forward....

As noted above...it does not help anyone if we all get into a ******* contest.....

I just want my garage.....

As for Winnipeg....I'll be there in Jan....and most likely again in Feb.....we are doing a 'project' for a local 'aerospace' company up there that you most likely know who I am talking about.

And if by some weird chance you work for said company....find the new addition....look for the autoclave control room and you will most likely find me in it.....

 

[tatra]

pm me when you are coming and i got a coupla restaurants to suggest for you,.........nope on the aviation thing, i fix locomotives...........got an idea who your talking about tho..........later

 

[ddawg16]

Deal.....I'll buy you a beer or two...or three and we can talk politics.....cuz it's so ****** cold there is nothing else to do that time of year.....

Only ONCE have I been there when I saw green grass....every other time the snow was piled up on the side of the road...and you needed an extension cord to plug in your car to keep it 'somewhat warm' so you could start it the next day......

Why do we always have to do startups in the dead of winter??????????????

 

[tatra]

thats why we drink, keep the blood thinned out to flow............summers here are quite nice at times other than the mosquitoes and oppresive heat and humidity, another reason for beer....................

 

[GSSFC]

I've gotta be honest, that form work makes no sense. Maybe you guys do it differently in warmer climates, but I have never seen form work like that. Seems like a combination of a frost wall and a monolithic slab. But at the very least I would expect to see a form on the outside of the perimeter or you are wasting a ton of concrete if they are using the earth as a form.

And I don't think those little 2x2 spindles are going to keep the forms square once the weight of the concrete is added. Seems like they are using scraps to do this job. Also, how they heck are they going to remove the inner spindles once the job is poured since you said it was being done in one pour. They can't be left in there, and they can't be removed or the form will collapse. I am scratching my head at this setup!

And are they planning on pinning the new work to the old existing slab. I don't see anything yet, but it would be important to have a mechanical bond between the two to help reduce cracks and movement.

Tim

 

[mikeyr]

Rebar qoes quick if you know what you are doing, my contractor was at about the same point last Wednesday and scheduled the inspector for Thursday afternoon, I thought he was nuts, but Thursday morning 4 guys finished off the rebar in no time at all, inspector came by and signed off no issues.

I have to admit that seeing no forms into the ground looks like a waste like the previous poster but from the contractors point of view its only concrete and your money right

 

[TipsyMcStagger]

DDawg...I know this thread is a couple of years old but I'm very curious to know what happened with the inspection and your concrete sub???

Tipsy

 

[ddawg16]

Inspection went ok.....contractor was an idiot.....

Next time around I'll just hire the concrete laborer he did....in fact I used him to do the stucco.

Now that I know what I'm doing....I'll do part of the work myself next time....which is coming up because I'm doing a 2-story addition to the house.

Biggest problem was that I did not double check all the dimensions....when they were measuring the foundation, they used the back wall as the anchor...which is not perfectly square with my property....as a result, my garage is not perfectly square....one side is about 2" forward on one side.

I do have one small crack in the slab....but I'm inclinded to think that it's a temp expansion/contraction crack....really thin....guess it will make putting down epoxy in a couple of years an easy decision.

 

[Justanoldguy]

Got any pics of the finished job?