Sistering joists with cracked headers

[dlundblad]

The fiance and I bought a 100 year old farmhouse back in October.. 5 acres, huge garage, pole barn and pond. Many plans and to do's. A few areas in the floor are sagging and my plan is to go in and sister the floor joists, but I am not sure how to fasten them at the ends.

The first and easiest troubled area is a 16' span. 2x8 joists. 16 on center. 10 or so feet wide. The 8x8 poplar headers have cracks from I'm assuming drying out over time. Would joist hangers work in this situation? The existing joists have the traditional 2x6 chunks cut off at the end and are fitted into the headers.

Thanks guys.

 

[manwithtools]

Pictures please. Then you might get some more pertinent answers.

It's hard to understand "The existing joists have the traditional 2x6 chunks cut off at the end and are fitted into the headers." What are traditional 2x6 chunks? What you describe as headers sound more like beams, headers go above door and window openings typically.

 

[dlundblad]

Pictures please. Then you might get some more pertinent answers.

It's hard to understand "The existing joists have the traditional 2x6 chunks cut off at the end and are fitted into the headers." What are traditional 2x6 chunks? What you describe as headers sound more like beams, headers go above door and window openings typically.

Thanks. Sorry my terminology isn't the best.

Here's a photo. From what I've seen, the 2x6-ish notches at the end are typical with older homes.

 

[PugetDude]

 

[manwithtools]

That is called is a mortise for a floor joist into a beam. The reason it's done that way is the floor joists are of varying height (because they are rough sawn), the pocket cut into the beam is sized to match the "notch" at the end of the joist, leaving the top flush with the beam regardless of the joist height.

Several methods of attachment are possible, what is the root problem you are trying to solve? Soft or bouncing floors? Creaking or noisy floors?

 

[dlundblad]

That is called is a mortise for a floor joist into a beam. The reason it's done that way is the floor joists are of varying height (because they are rough sawn), the pocket cut into the beam is sized to match the "notch" at the end of the joist, leaving the top flush with the beam regardless of the joist height.

Several methods of attachment are possible, what is the root problem you are trying to solve? Soft or bouncing floors? Creaking or noisy floors?

Just visible sag. No creaking or noise. They are quite stout feeling overall.

*The PO installed tile in the bathroom.. more of a complex area. The mortar is cracking and non existent in some areas.

 

[JRC3]

To remove the sag I think thethe joist would need to be evenly jacked slowly over time to straighten, and then sister. But if you need to jack them why not just do that and just leave it instead of sistering. Basicall you're adding another beam and cutting the span of the joist in half. Looks like a crawlspace so who cares if it's obstructed. I've seen this done many times on older houses, even in open basements.

How many joist are there needing this?

 

[dlundblad]

To remove the sag I think thethe joist would need to be evenly jacked slowly over time to straighten, and then sister. But if you need to jack them why not just do that and just leave it instead of sistering. Basicall you're adding another beam and cutting the span of the joist in half. Looks like a crawlspace so who cares if it's obstructed. I've seen this done many times on older houses, even in open basements.

How many joist are there needing this?

10 in the first area.

 

[jd_1138]

To remove the sag I think thethe joist would need to be evenly jacked slowly over time to straighten, and then sister. But if you need to jack them why not just do that and just leave it instead of sistering. Basicall you're adding another beam and cutting the span of the joist in half. Looks like a crawlspace so who cares if it's obstructed. I've seen this done many times on older houses, even in open basements.

How many joist are there needing this?

Yeah I'd do that.

 

[ez-duzit]

...A few areas in the floor are sagging...16' span. 2x8 joists...

The joists are way too small for the span.

 

[JRC3]

10 in the first area.

How tall is the crawlspace. Menards has the best price on jacks. https://www.menards.com/main/buildi...90-c-5725.htm?tid=-9200918513364040511&ipos=8 It's overkill but you could do one under each joist. Or do a smallish beam and fewer jacks. It doesn't need to be huge as it only carrying the floor and no structure.

 

[dlundblad]

How tall is the crawlspace. Menards has the best price on jacks. https://www.menards.com/main/buildi...90-c-5725.htm?tid=-9200918513364040511&ipos=8 It's overkill but you could do one under each joist. Or do a smallish beam and fewer jacks. It doesn't need to be huge as it only carrying the floor and no structure.

6' or so, but it's technically a basement with the furnace, water heater etc.

 

[dlundblad]

The joists are way too small for the span.

Uhhh yeah.. You think?

I didn't build the house.

 

[manwithtools]

Another beam mid span, that's what I would suggest as well. One thing to consider, it took 100 years for those joists to sag and it will take time to get them to un-sag. In other words; if you use the jacking method to level them out, you need to do it a bit at a time, otherwise they will fracture.

 

[ez-duzit]

...my plan is to go in and sister the floor joists...

Uhhh yeah.. You think?...

What you need is a beam under the mid-span.

 

[dlundblad]

What you need is a beam under the mid-span.

Once the situation is under control, that's my plan. A steel beam across the mid section with 2 jacks.

 

[acer66]

View media item 90422This is what I did because I wanted the height in the crawl space the new girder will just sit underneath.

 

[ez-duzit]

...A steel beam across the mid section with 2 jacks.

Doesn't need to be steel.

 

[JRC3]

Steel will be expensec

I'd run 2x6 3 or 4 wide as a beam, 2x8 would be even better. Then crank the jacks over time and just leave them in place when you get things leveled out. Or at least something along those lines.

 

[dlundblad]

So let's say the joists are ready to get leveled, what's one to fasten to at the beams?

 

[ez-duzit]

...what's one to fasten to at the beams?

You don't need to fasten anything. The joists will simply rest on the new beam, supported at their mid-span.

 

[acer66]

Framing nails if you are talking about your middle support.

 

[acer66]

You don't need to fasten anything. The joists will simply rest on the new beam, supported at their mid-span.

Highly unlikely that they are all the same size, you would have to cut them all out level to do that or just snug the supporting beam up to the lowest one and shim the rest.

 

[JRC3]

Highly unlikely that they are all the same size, you would have to cut them all out level to do that or just snug the supporting beam up to the lowest one and shim the rest.

Shims were my thought too.

 

[dlundblad]

Highly unlikely that they are all the same size, you would have to cut them all out level to do that or just snug the supporting beam up to the lowest one and shim the rest.

I would think the orignal 2x8 joists would be undersized compared to the new.

 

[ez-duzit]

Unsubscribed.

 

[dlundblad]

Unsubscribed.

Thank you for the advice thus far.

Have a good weekend.

 

[manwithtools]

I would think the orignal 2x8 joists would be undersized compared to the new.

I'd wager they are true 2 x 8 +/- a 1/2". They are rough sawn. Not today's kiln dried, planed to size framing lumber. They will be larger than lumber available today and all different sizes. Likely harder than a rock too.

 

[JRC3]

Likely harder than a rock too.

That old framing lumber is some crazy stuff. Don't know what they used to use but I don't think it was yellow pine.

 

[manwithtools]

That old framing lumber is some crazy stuff. Don't know what they used to use but I don't think it was yellow pine.

In the mid-west where the OP is, it was poplar, oak, butternut, chestnut and other hardwoods. Not a lot of softwoods in that area. Indigenous trees were the primary source of framing lumber. After drying, some of it is now harder than woodpecker lips :tard:

 

[acer66]

I would think the orignal 2x8 joists would be undersized compared to the new.

what I meant is that if they are like ones at my place which was build in 1901 the original 2x8’s will be all different in height so if you just jack up your new center support beam flush against against all of them from underneath you will end up wit a very uneven floor.

I hope that is a bit clearer, I sometimes have a hard time to convey my thoughts.

 

[acer66]

That old framing lumber is some crazy stuff. Don't know what they used to use but I don't think it was yellow pine.

True, a friend of mine has his house almost completely framed out of oak.
They often just used what was growing close back in the day.

 

[wrenchguy]

Are you removing the floor sheeting in this 10x16 area? Your prolly dealing with balloon framing, you jack up 1 joist the ends of it will prolly come up too. I wouldn't jack a 100 year old joist, i'd sister them on plane to be determined using a base line of the highest (toward living space) at the ends of all the joist. Platform or western framing the outside walls bear over the the floor sheeting, rim joist and floor joist, not the case with balloon framing.