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Site Location Decision

Jakemedic

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Hello! First, I would like to say I greatly appreciate the opinions of the group. I have been struggling with the location of my shop. I have an old pole barn that is 12x24 existing on the property, with dirt floor and could use some maintaining. I am building a woodworking shop on our 2.5 acre homestead. Either plan is a metal building with 10’ walls and 2’ overhang all the way around.

Originally, I was planning on putting it where the existing concrete is to the left of the house, but after shooting the location with a laser, it would have required 14k worth of fill to make sure I didn’t have a river running through the shop. So that wasn’t feasible, and I had to abandon that idea.

Plan A is to build a 24x32 on a foundation (the lot slopes badly) with stick built walls, a 4/12 pitch. That plan will cost me 30K to make happen. The positive of the location is it is close proximity to the house, making electric and natural gas a breeze. It would also allow for a half bathroom if I choose without much work. The foundation goes to the frost line (here in Iowa 4’) but will require a pump truck to do the concrete. The location is 20’ from the house, with easy access from the rear man door of the existing garage. I would need to take out an ash tree (but it needs to come out anyhow) and have access established to the shop.

Plan B involves removing the existing structure. Honestly, it isn’t much but reasonably dry for the mower and snowblower. I could have it done in about 2 days, saving the metal and posts for another project another day. This plan includes a 28x36 shop with poured 4” floor inside. That dried in would cost me 21K. The positives are it is bigger, with the site relatively flat so the dirt work cost is minimal. It has good access so a cement truck would be able to make it without the risk of getting stuck. No foundation needed. The negatives is power and natural gas. I would need 200’ of natural gas pipe buried and the same amount of electric cable buried. I have a phone call into the electric company to see what pulling a service from the pole would cost, and if that would make more sense to have a separate meter. There could not be a half bath there, but honestly, I could walk outside without much problem. It would mean that I would share the space with the zero turn, and anything else my bride decided to store in there. It would also involve a bigger HVAC system, as I plan on heating and cooling the space. Walking, this plan would be 150’ from the house. I could establish a drive to the shop eventually, but wouldn’t be on the top of my list.

I have thought about it and just keep going back and forth. My bride says “just make it happen” and she really doesn’t care either way. My question to the group is “am i missing something?” I recently retired after a long career being a paramedic and only get one shot at this. Thank you in advance for any suggestions or ideas that you may provide.
 

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yeldogt

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With all that space .... B

Do you have septic? If you do and you are able to add a bathroom .... you could always pump. Obviously, with sewer that would work as well.
 

kaehlin

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East Lansing, MI
I'd go with Plan A. The shop would be easier to access, and you retain another building to store stuff in. It sounds like if you need more storage space in the future, you may be able to add on to the older building, keeping your woodworking shop for its purpose.
 
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Jakemedic

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Hi thanks! Yes I have a septic system that is downhill from plan A but plan B would require pumping upstream. The Amish gentleman who will be building either building suggested plan A when he stopped by to look at the sites. He didn’t like the idea of taking down a building to build another one. He also commented about the distance too. The other thing the photo doesn’t show is the slope. It slopes from right to left and from front to back. Need to be cognitive of water flow too. That would be another positive for plan A
 
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driftpin

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Congratulations on your recent retirement. I'm a retired firefighter/paramedic, began in the mid-'70s. Invest in a place where you can enjoy making/doing things. It sounds to me like Plan A is the best path.

The pole barn allows sheltered storage, and the shop you build will be close-to the house, convenient, and tie-into your existing improvements. It's a good idea to have an inside the building half-bath at least, my opinion.
 
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Jakemedic

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Thank you! Another positive about plan A is that the concrete could be in mid to late March and then the building in April. Been waiting a long time for a dedicated shop to build things in. It got old sharing the garage with vehicles.
 

Vahispd

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SE VA
Congrats on the retirement! Interesting decision. I would go with Plan A, based on the info you presented. The cost for gas and electrical service on Plan B would be nice to know though.

The pros of Plan A to me:
1. bathroom; running water is great to have in the shop, plus you can have an eye wash station (safety right?).
2. shorter distance from the house will make moving larger pieces like book cases, cabinets etc. easier.
3. possibly better security for the shop contents (if that is a concern). Easier to run alarm and camera wiring back to the house. Isolated buildings can be easier to break into since they are less visible and any noise is diminished by the distance.
4. Easier to heat/cool just what is needed. No sense having A/C for the snowblower!
5. you will have some ash wood to make things from!

Either plan is a wash for square footage really. I would add a wall or partition to plan B just to have designated space for lawn & garden if you go that route.

You are fortunate your bride doesn't care. Mine would likely be concerned about the size of the shop next to the house. A consideration if you ever plan to move as some buyers may feel the same way.

Is there any way to create landscaping on the left side of the house to divert the water? Maybe some sort of terraces or swales so you don't have to have so much fill?
 

JamesW84

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Close proximity to the house is good for the reasons mentioned. However, noise generated in the shop will likely transfer to the house more, so is your wife ok hearing the tablesaw/grinder/air compressor?
 

captain14

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Are the bedrooms on the Plan A side or the kitchen/living areas? If your wife needs to check on you during a project which is easier since you are in the retirement age group?


I’m sure driftpin and myself can recall at least one emergency where the family members didn’t discover the emergency until much later.

The half bath will pay for itself quickly when it’s rainy, cold and icy.

Good luck and enjoy it.
 
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Jakemedic

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Hey Gentlemen, Thanks so much for the thought provoking comments. The posting is exactly what I was hoping for.

Vahispd, doing the Natural Gas myself, without ditch witch rental costs, it would be 500.00 to plan B. Electrical on the other hand was much more expensive. Earlier this last fall, I got a quote to run 100 amp service to my first location (nixed due to fill cost) of 3500.00 including a Square D sub panel in the new building. Being in close proximity to the house with plan A, I can easily bring that to closer to 1000.00, as I could pull a 100 amp circuit to the shop from my 200 amp breaker panel inside the house. I don't weld or get carried away with too much electric, but 100 amp should do just fine for a one man woodworking shop. I have been eyeing a mini split however for cooling mostly. But they are very efficient anymore and shouldn't require me anything more than the 100 amp service.

Ssdave, your comments hit the nail on the head. Even the Amish builder commented that the shop would be something I would enjoy much more having it be closer to the house. JamesW84, my bride would enjoy hearing any noise coming from the shop, that means I am doing something I enjoy. She has been impressively supportive of the entire project and just wants it built (so I can do some of the "honey build this" projects for her).

Captain14, been there and done that along with Driftpin. There were numerous times where someone could have survived IF someone would have known about the emergency. From a safety standpoint, the close proximity to the house is much better, and the likelihood of having my bride come out to see what I am up to is that much more appealing. I was blessed to be able to retire at 55. My bride is 9 years younger but nursing has taken it's toll on her body too...... Closer would be much better.

Having the driveway go around the house and to the building make security much better as well. We rescue greyhounds, and while they are far from guard dogs, they do let you know when someone is coming up the driveway.

I would have simply added onto the garage that exists, but the County we reside in requires a 100' setback from the center of the road. That kept me from simply adding onto the existing house.

I am planning on adding at least one extra 2" PVC conduit from the house to the garage for internet and anything else that would need to be run in the future.

The half bath is something that I have kicked around for sometime. Having that, coupled with a slop sink for cleaning paint brushes or making a pot of coffee would be VERY useful. It will take away some floor space, but still would make the place all that much more comfortable and useful. At some point, I could cover the walkway to the shop, but if I get too carried away, I may have to get a job to pay for it......... YIKES.

Keep the comments coming, they are sincerely appreciated!
 
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captain14

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Half bath is great as we mature, become seasoned veterans and get wiser. It’s all the other people out there that get old and look it.

Another point is snack delivery is much easier if it’s nearby and just wants to come and hang out.....
 

B.C.Biker

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Myself ? I'd go plan B. Maybe I'm weird but my shop is about 100 feet away from my home with trees in between and I like it that way. Keeping the work and hobbies away from home life is a bonus to me.
I'm about the same age as you. Not retired but have worked seasonal my whole life so have always been "semi" retired. 18 years with the same woman and lucky to be still nuts about her but being able to walk "down to the shop" is very valuable. We're on 10 acres here but I still walk down to the other end to a hay barn for my morning coffee. Alone. :)
For the safety aspect it's not that big a deal to me. Unless she's sitting there watching you after your leg is tore clean off and you can't reach your phone or you stroke out the extra 60 or 80 feet really won't mean much. If one is really concerned about safety keep ALL the guards in place, safety glasses by the door when you walk in and PPE next to ALL machinery and only work wide awake and sober. Chances really are near zero that you'll be hurt.
Your retirement income is not my business but saving 10 grand is huge. That's a lot of little things and time spent with grandkids, the expensive tools you only need once a year but make life sooo much easier, all the little things you weren't able to do when working full time.
A retired guy can also do his own trenching ect. to save more money and give you the extra satisfaction of doing it yourself. Whizzing outside which ever direction you want is one of the great parts of living on an acreage. Hope I never get to old to appreciate that!
The tore down shed materials can be used to build a lean to beside the new shop. Lawn equipment etc can go in there. For a sink have it drain into a very simple, small (barrel) septic tank under your new lean to.
Enjoy your retirement. Being a paramedic must be one of the hardest jobs on the brain and soul you could have I'll bet. Don't worry, your wood shop will have way less drama. :) My wife was a nurse and retired early also. Difficult job too.
 
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CraigStu

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I wouldn't even consider B. I like being close. My wife likes it too. The difference between a short walk and a long one is huge to me. I'd move it as close as possible and build an enclosed breezeway to connect it.
 
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Jakemedic

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Thanks CraigStu and B.C. Biker. Your opinions are exactly what I wanted. While I agree 9K is a lot of money associated with building closer, it maybe closer to 7k once I get everything done. Yea, on a fixed income although I do some casual work here and there. Going to go mark it off this afternoon and see what I think.
 
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yeldogt

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Sorry ... would never build that close. I have had to do it ... and it nicer when there is some distance ... what else do you do with the land? It not even far?

When you have a large building near the house -- they block light and wind. How is the orientation ? If it's on the east side you will have no sun in the winter morning .. ice and snow will stay longer .... more frost between the buildings.

If you garden ... you can make a shed off the back side for tools and potting space.


Get fill dirt to level -- sidewalk ... camera for the Mrs.
 
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Jakemedic

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Yeldogt, thanks for sharing your opinion. It is genuinely appreciated! Was down by play B location today. It was soaked, tons of water standing. The property is high on the right, going to the left. Plan B is low, would require some fill but it is already there from the septic system put in last summer. My bride spoke up today and said that she wants it closer than further. I was out today looking at the spot, I could easily go 35’ from the house and still have room. It would be much easier to put it in plan A location, just more expensive. Keep the comments coming, this is exactly what I am looking for! I promise to post the build, which ever location I end up picking. God Bless!
 

Vahispd

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A couple more thoughts. In my area there are companies that are frequently looking for places to dump fill dirt from construction, landscaping, pools etc., and some deliver too.
Could be some companies in your vicinity that would be glad to dump some fill on your property. Might be worth it for a small trucking fee, even if you dump in other areas of the property just to level out or improve drainage. OR make your first location more viable?

I've been bit by the 'should be plenty' guesstimate situation before. For electrical service, look up the power requirements for your desired equipment to make sure you pull the right service and panel. You don't want to outgrow your electrical service or have to compromise on tool choices in the future. I've seen too many threads and videos where folks are trying to upgrade wiring in a finished shop to accommodate their new needs.
Especially count which machines will be on at the same time, such as a decent cyclone dust collector system which may draw 20+ amps plus 15A for a tablesaw or planer etc. gets you close to half your service. Then your HVAC, lighting, air scrubber, chargers for tool batteries, and any media/internet devices will all be on when you are in the shop.
100A service may be fine, but it's better to know for sure so you can do it right the first time.
 

yeldogt

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Yeldogt, thanks for sharing your opinion. It is genuinely appreciated! Was down by play B location today. It was soaked, tons of water standing. The property is high on the right, going to the left. Plan B is low, would require some fill but it is already there from the septic system put in last summer. My bride spoke up today and said that she wants it closer than further. I was out today looking at the spot, I could easily go 35’ from the house and still have room. It would be much easier to put it in plan A location, just more expensive. Keep the comments coming, this is exactly what I am looking for! I promise to post the build, which ever location I end up picking. God Bless!

I'm not able to see all of the various conditions ... I'm just going by past experience.

It's the one thing I don't like about my current project -- my studio building will be close to the main structure. I just don't have the lot size to do anything about it.
 
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Jakemedic

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A couple more thoughts. In my area there are companies that are frequently looking for places to dump fill dirt from construction, landscaping, pools etc., and some deliver too.
Could be some companies in your vicinity that would be glad to dump some fill on your property. Might be worth it for a small trucking fee, even if you dump in other areas of the property just to level out or improve drainage. OR make your first location more viable?

I've been bit by the 'should be plenty' guesstimate situation before. For electrical service, look up the power requirements for your desired equipment to make sure you pull the right service and panel. You don't want to outgrow your electrical service or have to compromise on tool choices in the future. I've seen too many threads and videos where folks are trying to upgrade wiring in a finished shop to accommodate their new needs.
Especially count which machines will be on at the same time, such as a decent cyclone dust collector system which may draw 20+ amps plus 15A for a tablesaw or planer etc. gets you close to half your service. Then your HVAC, lighting, air scrubber, chargers for tool batteries, and any media/internet devices will all be on when you are in the shop.
100A service may be fine, but it's better to know for sure so you can do it right the first time.

Thank you for your comments. My last shop did just fine with 100 amp service (actually it was 90 amp due to wiring constraints). But none the less, I did contact the power company to see what it would cost each month for a separate service to the shop. I think it will be 15.00 or so, but then they would run electric to a mast and I could have 200 amps. Not because it's cool to have it, but for future proofing. As you stated "do it right the first time".
 

CraigStu

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Yep more amps service is always a good thing. We just had a 2500 ft house built w/ full unfinished basement and 28x32 garage. I was amazed that the house has 400 amp service which they split into two 200 amp breaker boxes in the garage and then a 100A sub panel upstairs and a 100A subpanel in the basement. Been in plenty of places before where there were maybe two empty slots for breakers. Made it hard to do much. I know this is about the house but...anyway I asked if we could have a 20A breaker for the bathroom wall outlets and the lights on a separate breaker. No Problem. Now my wife can have the little space heater on and run her hair dryer at the same time. And I don't have to run to the garage like in another house when she popped the breaker. You will be very happy w/ that decision. BTW spend some time on your shop layout particularly where you want any 240V power tools. It's not crazy expensive but it does cost more to run 240V outlets than 120V. So, if you can locate the mast, and hence the meter and the breaker box near where they will be, that will help reduce cost.
 
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Jakemedic

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Update: went to the County to pull my building permit. The sanitation inspector called and showed up due to the addition of a half bath. As expected no grinder pump or additional tank is needed. The site and plans are approved as originally submitted. He did however enlighten me on a few things.

1. The 100’ setback from the center of the road that is in code is for new homes. I can move towards the road as long as the front wall doesn’t go past the existing garage. All it would require is a trip to the Board of Supervisors meeting to get their blessing. Said it wouldn’t be a problem and the building department would sign off. By moving it up 25’, I may not need a foundation, or possibly not the 8’ foundation walls originally quoted. Haven’t really had a chance to look all that closely.

2. It would be permitted to add my shop attached to the rear of the existing garage. Good idea and news, but with one problem. The natural gas, rural water and fiber internet services all reside in that area.

The positives of an attached shop are quite extensive. The only real negatives are the costs with moving the utilities and finding matching vinyl siding, which a trip to Menards could fix. Not sure if my Amish contractor could frame the attached addition or not, but a phone call will tell. Attaching it opens some additional possibilities too. Could beam the back wall and have it extra deep (56’) or leave the rear wall of existing garage intact and add an insulated garage door for a separate entrance. Size wise I would stay the same, 24x32. Really don’t have an opinion yet, but am leaning towards a man door and additional garage door if I go attached. Heating and cooling would be much easier (1344 sq ft vs 768 is significant)

Have a phone call into the trenching guy to ask if moving utilities was something he does. He was amazing with the septic system last fall. I already spoke with rural water and from my meter to the house is on me (asked about pulling water to shop). Natural gas maybe on the utility company as it is before my meter. A few phone calls will give me the answers. I am watching grand daughter who is 8 months old till early this afternoon, so makes phone calls impossible and one finger typing to add this update. Will add what I find out once I know more.

Have a wonderful Thursday!
 

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Jakemedic

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Now, that is good news. An attached addition will be so much more usable. Like I posted before, my shop and garage is attached to the house, and the shop is fully heated. I can walk out of the back entry of the house to the garage and into the shop any time, no coat, no shoes if I was so inclined. Much more usable than some detached shed that I have to walk through the cold or rain or wind to.

It'll be worth moving the utilities to have the increased functionality.

I agree! Save around 3k on foundation. May not need to move water. Internet provider wants 500 to move my fiber. Natural gas company hasn’t called me back yet. Have a contractor coming Sunday to quote the building and Monday will call the Amish builder and give him a chance at it too.

Here is the latest design. The smaller garage is existing.
 

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jetnow1

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Consider putting it behind the garage and connecting with a breezeway, still attached but with the best of both worlds. Might save moving utilities, and keeps noise away from a main house also. I would consider putting storage a storage space above, my better half
has filled the walk up attic of my 24 x 30 garage already.
 

CraigStu

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Good news for sure. On the siding; I'd get the closest match you can and then re-do the siding on the street side wall of the existing garage also. For me the rest will be close enough since is around a 90 degree corner. I don't think that the water and internet will be much trouble but the gas will be another story. I hope the gas company will help out but I could certainly see their point of view if the charge you.
 
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Jakemedic

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Consider putting it behind the garage and connecting with a breezeway, still attached but with the best of both worlds. Might save moving utilities, and keeps noise away from a main house also. I would consider putting storage a storage space above, my better half
has filled the walk up attic of my 24 x 30 garage already.

Thanks for your input! I did think about that, but there is significant savings doing 3 sides of a foundation along with 3 sides of a 10’ wall. Internet says 500 dollars, natural gas tbd, and water maybe okay. They say it’s 4’ under ground anyhow. Where it comes into the house is 8’ (or close to). My bride has a 15x30 room in the basement for storage once I get all my tools out of there. Don’t give them more space, and they won’t bring more home, right? :lol_hitti
 
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Jakemedic

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Good news for sure. On the siding; I'd get the closest match you can and then re-do the siding on the street side wall of the existing garage also. For me the rest will be close enough since is around a 90 degree corner. I don't think that the water and internet will be much trouble but the gas will be another story. I hope the gas company will help out but I could certainly see their point of view if the charge you.

I have a bad window in the existing garage that I will be changing out with a new construction window. I totally agree with swapping some siding around, street view gets new (depending how close of a match). Plan b is to strip the back of the house and side the street side with that siding and use the new stuff on the back of the garage and back side of the house. (If the match isn’t that good). Plan c is to reside the entire house and garage, but hope I don’t get that deep into it. Being retired and have experience with siding, it opens a lot of possibilities. I’m just not able to frame it and roof it. I will post what the gas company says. As long as it isn’t SUPER expensive. I’m going for it. I can actually visualize this shop. Something with the other locations, I was having a hard time. Also will be skipping the 1/2 bath, we have 3 full baths in the house already, and there are only two of us. There is a utility sink right inside the existing garage man door, so that will give easy access for cleaning up. A friend of mine came out today and will be quoting me the framing and roofing. I also will call the Amish builder and see if he wants a shot at it. Take care!
 
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Jakemedic

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Guy from the power company came out. Moving the gas meter to new location cost 950.00 plus the cost of rerouting of the main gas main inside the house. I have a phone call into the plumber who ran my gas line for the dryer and stove when we moved in. It isn’t all that far but all finished walls. In the past,, I would have done that myself, but in today’s society, doing my own natural gas work won’t cut it, even though I have done it in the past successfully. Insurance companies looking for ways to keep from paying claims and such. Maybe he will allow me to fish the flexible gas line and he hooks it up.
 
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