Six Breaker Rule for Panel

[BentBierz]

Hello,

I have another circuit panel question somewhat related to the issue I had in the following thread: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356727.

As discussed in the above thread, I have a detached steel building that has a new circuit panel inside that is fed from the main panel at the house. The new panel (GE PowerMark TLM812SCUD) that the electrician installed in the steel building has main lugs instead of a main breaker but is convertible to a main breaker set-up. There is a 100 amp breaker installed at the main panel (soon to be a 90 amp as per the above thread).

Now to my new issue...and I can't necessarily blame this on my electrician but somewhat do...I'll take 50%-75% blame here as I had told him I would probably have 8-10 circuits once I finished out the building but, at the time, only had him install one for the sewage system sub pump. Sooo...I was reading that in a detached building if you have more than 6 breakers in the panel (i.e. it takes more than 6 hand movements to shut-off all of the breakers in the panel) than I would need not only the 90 amp breaker back at the house main panel but also a 90 amp main breaker (or some other form of disconnect) in/near my steel building panel. No problem...I'll go get the main breaker kit at Home Depot, install it and be done. The only problem is the two hots coming into the panel that are attached to the lugs have absolutely no slack in them and the way the panel is configured to convert to a main breaker requires you to use slots 1 and 3 on the upper left side of the panel. Also, it would be VERY difficult to put in some type of disconnect ahead of the panel.

The only solution that readily presents itself is to limit my circuits in the current steel building panel and run a sub panel off of this panel to another part of the building. Not something I am opposed to because this would have its own advantage for my set-up. For the electricians out there...would I still be within code compliance if my existing panel only had 6 breakers (one of them being a 50 or 60 amp breaker feeding the new subp panel)?

Sorry the set-up took so long to get to the finish!

 

[Norcal]

As long as there are only 6 throws, it does not matter if they are single, or 2-pole breakers,for example if you have 1, 2-pole, & 5 single pole breakers, there are just 6 breakers.

This is why using ,4,6,8 space panels IMO is pure foolishness, spending $10 to save a penny. Installing a panel of sufficient size or even oversized allows for changes in the future, my own shop has a 42 circuit panel which is way larger then needed at the time it was installed & is still not in full use 24 years after the shop was built.

My shop panel:



The backfed main does not require a holddown/retainer bracket in that panel.

 

[BentBierz]

As long as there are only 6 throws, it does not matter if they are single, or 2-pole breakers,for example if you have 1, 2-pole, & 5 single pole breakers, there are just 6 breakers.

I don't want to seem dense but you ARE saying that as long as there are NMT 6 throws on my current panel I can feed a sub off of it without putting in a main breaker?

This is why using ,4,6,8 space panels IMO is pure foolishness, spending $10 to save a penny. Installing a panel of sufficient size or even oversized allows for changes in the future, my own shop has a 42 circuit panel which is way larger then needed at the time it was installed & is still not in full use 24 years after the shop was built.

Completely agree! I have quite the reputation for overkill and overbuilt when I do my own stuff...sometimes to the point that even I look back and think that some of the things I did was way over the top. I also try to future proof as much as possible as you suggest in putting in a bigger panel than current needs may dictate. Unfortunately, I didn't know what I didn't know at the time having never put up a new building before --and-- my electrician (sub'd out from the GC) was young and evidently not too used to asking the customer questions or making suggestions...just went and bought a cheap HD panel, ran too small a gauge of wire and, in short, at ever turn of the way pissed me off. OK...getting worked up...going to go sit out in our nice East Texas weather and have a beer or three.

My shop panel:



The backfed main does not require a holddown/retainer bracket in that panel.[/QUOTE]

 

[LXCam]

What code section states this 6 action clause ********? Granted I haven't done a resi project in decades and am certainly not up to code in regards to resi work but that's a new one on me. This I gotta read for myself.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I never install a panel without a main in it,no matter what size it is.

 

[Radix2]

Just get some splicer reducers and extend the wires so you can put the main in as you wanted to do. You can get them at any home center.

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . if you have wire size limitation of 90A at the subpanel,
. . . . . . . just the HOUSE feeding the detached garage needs the 90A breaker.

No need to have 90A breaker (ie subpanel shutoff) as it can be 100A main breaker that may come in your 6 space, or 10 space, 12 space, 20 space, etc panel. Only the upstream feed HAS to have the 90A breaker.

If it were me, I'd just put panel with PLENTY of spaces to handle ANY expansion you might EVER have in the detached garage. Thus, a 100A main breaker panel with 20 spaces, 24 spaces or even 30 spaces.

 

[mikegt4]

Now to my new issue...and I can't necessarily blame this on my electrician but somewhat do...I'll take 50%-75% blame here as I had told him I would probably have 8-10 circuits once I finished out the building but, at the time, only had him install one for the sewage system sub pump. Sooo...I was reading that in a detached building if you have more than 6 breakers in the panel (i.e. it takes more than 6 hand movements to shut-off all of the breakers in the panel) than I would need not only the 90 amp breaker back at the house main panel but also a 90 amp main breaker (or some other form of disconnect) in/near my steel building panel. No problem...I'll go get the main breaker kit at Home Depot, install it and be done. The only problem is the two hots coming into the panel that are attached to the lugs have absolutely no slack in them and the way the panel is configured to convert to a main breaker requires you to use slots 1 and 3 on the upper left side of the panel. Also, it would be VERY difficult to put in some type of disconnect ahead of the panel.

The rule is not 6 swipes, it is ONE swipe of the hand to turn off all 6 breakers, 6 being the # of breakers that a typical size hand can cover. It has been a code requirement (max 6 breakers w/o a main breaker) for a long time.

 

[rlitman]

The rule is not 6 swipes, it is ONE swipe of the hand to turn off all 6 breakers, 6 being the # of breakers that a typical size hand can cover. It has been a code requirement (max 6 breakers w/o a main breaker) for a long time.

Actually it is two swipes, at three breakers per swipe.
Six handles are allowed in 8 space panels where there are four spaces on the left, and four on the right.

 

[mm08822]

What code section states this 6 action clause ********? Granted I haven't done a resi project in decades and am certainly not up to code in regards to resi work but that's a new one on me. This I gotta read for myself.

230.71(A) Been around at least since the mid 70's that I know of. Maybe someone else knows when it hit the code book.

 

[mm08822]

The rule is not 6 swipes, it is ONE swipe of the hand to turn off all 6 breakers, 6 being the # of breakers that a typical size hand can cover. It has been a code requirement (max 6 breakers w/o a main breaker) for a long time.

No, the article for maximum number of disconnects is actually written as "shall consist of of not more than 6 switches or sets of circuit breakers".
In this case each "set" of the 6 circuit breakers could be 1P, 2P, or 3P.

There is no "throws of the hand" written in the code, but in the field that is what is stated.

 

[LXCam]

230.71(A) Been around at least since the mid 70's that I know of. Maybe someone else knows when it hit the code book.

Thank you.

But guys this is in reference to "Service" disconnects and has nothing to do with branch circuit protection. Unless someone else has another code section to reference.

 

[alfredeneuman]

No, the article for maximum number of disconnects is actually written as "shall consist of of not more than 6 switches or sets of circuit breakers".
In this case each "set" of the 6 circuit breakers could be 1P, 2P, or 3P.

There is no "throws of the hand" written in the code, but in the field that is what is stated.

 

[ddawg16]

I had to change my sub-panel in the garage....I had too many 'handles'....

Not sure how anyone determined more than 6 handles was a safety issue....

Chances are, if one breaker does not solve the problem....40 breakers is not going to solve the problem and I'll already be down the road.

If the breaker in the main panel doesn't solve the issue....I f'd up big time.

 

[BentBierz]

There is no "throws of the hand" written in the code, but in the field that is what is stated.

Just to clarify...I wasn't saying "throw of the hand" was in the code but was how I read electricians on other forums describing it in field or layman terms.

 

[PoorOwner]

Thank you.

But guys this is in reference to "Service" disconnects and has nothing to do with branch circuit protection. Unless someone else has another code section to reference.

I look up 230.71..... clear as IRS publications..

I think the OP is misunderstood that he needs it for his sub..
shut off is a good idea, but that's not what that section of code is talking about?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

As long as there are only 6 throws, it does not matter if they are single, or 2-pole breakers,for example if you have 1, 2-pole, & 5 single pole breakers, there are just 6 breakers.

This is why using ,4,6,8 space panels IMO is pure foolishness, spending $10 to save a penny. Installing a panel of sufficient size or even oversized allows for changes in the future, my own shop has a 42 circuit panel which is way larger then needed at the time it was installed & is still not in full use 24 years after the shop was built.

My shop panel:



The backfed main does not require a holddown/retainer bracket in that panel.

When is a backed main not required to be anchored in a panel????

 

[mm08822]

Thank you.

But guys this is in reference to "Service" disconnects and has nothing to do with branch circuit protection. Unless someone else has another code section to reference.

You are correct. I referenced the wrong article b/c a service can only be supplied by a utility.

Go to article 225 for feeders Part 2.
Read 225.33(A) It is virtually the same as similar article in 230.

The 6(max) breakers used for the branch circuits qualify as the equivalent disconnect for the feeder to the separate building.

 

[mm08822]

Just to clarify...I wasn't saying "throw of the hand" was in the code but was how I read electricians on other forums describing it in field or layman terms.

Not really directed you.
Just clarifying that throws of hand, swipes, movements, etc. are not terms in the Code. These loose terms used by many sometimes get new meanings and morph over time or from mouth-mouth. The Code definitively describes what it requires.

 

[LXCam]

**** you guys are going to make me research this huh?. Article 225 off the top of my head was outside structures but more so required clearances of overhead conductors/ lighting, **** like that. Guess I'm gonna to have to look.

But I do appreciate the effort.

 

[Bert_]

When is a backed main not required to be anchored in a panel????

That main IS anchored. It doesn't require any additional screws/straps because it is a bolt in breaker. Notice the line of screws in between the breakers, that is how they attach to the bus.


I am a bit curious about what appears to be a 3 pole breaker in a single phase panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

When is a backed main not required to be anchored in a panel????

When the panel was installed before that code was adopted and are plug on...

Ive seen older panels with backfed mains and no retention bracket or screw since it wasnt available back then...

 

[Norcal]

When is a backed main not required to be anchored in a panel????

When they are bolt on, required for plug in breakers only.

 

[Norcal]

That main IS anchored. It doesn't require any additional screws/straps because it is a bolt in breaker. Notice the line of screws in between the breakers, that is how they attach to the bus.


I am a bit curious about what appears to be a 3 pole breaker in a single phase panel.

There are only 1 & 2 pole breakers in that panel,I'll let you guess why.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

When they are bolt on, required for plug in breakers only.

That's the same result as screwing it down or clamping it.
I thought you were saying that a back fed breaker didn't need to be mechanically connected in the panel,my bad.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

That main IS anchored. It doesn't require any additional screws/straps because it is a bolt in breaker. Notice the line of screws in between the breakers, that is how they attach to the bus.


I am a bit curious about what appears to be a 3 pole breaker in a single phase panel.

I thought he was talking about the ge panel in nor cal's post.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

When the panel was installed before that code was adopted and are plug on...

Ive seen older panels with backfed mains and no retention bracket or screw since it wasnt available back then...

I was looking at the picture of Norcal panel,wrong picture.

 

[tkendall1517]

There is no code prohibition to splice wire onto the feeders that currently hook to the main lugs, despite what some may tell you. Yes it will look goofy, but it will get the job done without having to add a subpanel. Google Polaris lugs.

Sent from my HTC One A9 using Tapatalk

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Say what?

 

[sberry]

Did anyone answer the guys question? Yes, add another panel. Feed it from that one.

 

[AntonLargiader]

There are only 1 & 2 pole breakers in that panel,I'll let you guess why.

Just taking up space... not connected to anything. Someone give you that panel with all of the shutters gone, and you had a bucket full of spare breakers?

 

[mm08822]

OP, your original idea will work and be compliant. I suggest you eliminate this current hassle and be done with it. You will always need to add something in the future at this current location. Others on this thread have already given many reasons supporting this.
Buy a new panel of same brand with many ckt spaces including a main to replace the old one.
Depending upon vertical placement of the new panel and where breaker/neutral lugs are, you may be able to eliminate any splicing. It may take a little planning to do this and not short all the branch ckt wiring. If you need to splice in the panel, do so, not the end of the world.

If you feel another subpanel in the building really makes sense for you, re-use the old one there.

 

[BentBierz]

OP, your original idea will work and be compliant. I suggest you eliminate this current hassle and be done with it. You will always need to add something in the future at this current location. Others on this thread have already given many reasons supporting this.
Buy a new panel of same brand with many ckt spaces including a main to replace the old one.
Depending upon vertical placement of the new panel and where breaker/neutral lugs are, you may be able to eliminate any splicing. It may take a little planning to do this and not short all the branch ckt wiring. If you need to splice in the panel, do so, not the end of the world.

If you feel another subpanel in the building really makes sense for you, re-use the old one there.

Thanks. This is the way that I am currently leaning...just trying to figure out placement, how much EMT rework I will have to do, etc.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Not really directed you.
Just clarifying that throws of hand, swipes, movements, etc. are not terms in the Code.

Well, the 2017 code does say, "... to disconnect all ungrounded conductors with no more than six operations of the hand." 225.33(B).

 

[Bert_]

Could you simply cut 6" off the pipe and mount a new larger panel. You would get more slack in the wire to reach a main. Putting in a sub panel is a fine option but this may be just another option.

There are only 1 & 2 pole breakers in that panel,I'll let you guess why.

It did look a bit different than a normal 3 pole, took me a bit to figure out what it could be. I finally googled a picture of a 2 pole shunt trip and it looks like a winner.

Just taking up space... not connected to anything. Someone give you that panel with all of the shutters gone, and you had a bucket full of spare breakers?

I'm guessing he ordered it with all those breakers. It's substantially cheaper to order a panel full of breakers than to buy those same breakers after the fact, at least for bolt on or any 3 pole stuff.

 

[BentBierz]

Could you simply cut 6" off the pipe and mount a new larger panel. You would get more slack in the wire to reach a main. Putting in a sub panel is a fine option but this may be just another option.

That is something I am considering but it will be a little difficult. The conduit was roughed-in before the slab was poured and there is no outside LB to where I can pull the wire out. The pvc conduit comes up out of the slab and is hugging the interior building metal siding so sawing it (especially on the backside) is going to be kind of iffy...not impossible, just a lot of opportunity for hacking it all up and potentially knicking the wire. The conduit runs up the wall and terminates at a LB. The electrician punched out the backside of the panel so that the LB socket protrudes into the box. It now has 4-wire vice the 3-wire shown in the picture.

 

[Radix2]

That is something I am considering but it will be a little difficult. The conduit was roughed-in before the slab was poured and there is no outside LB to where I can pull the wire out. The pvc conduit comes up out of the slab and is hugging the interior building metal siding so sawing it (especially on the backside) is going to be kind of iffy...not impossible, just a lot of opportunity for hacking it all up and potentially knicking the wire. The conduit runs up the wall and terminates at a LB. The electrician punched out the backside of the panel so that the LB socket protrudes into the box. It now has 4-wire vice the 3-wire shown in the picture.

My take on your op was that you wanted to just add a main to your panel to make it compliant. The issue was too short of wire to do that. The simple solution as I posted above is to use some splicers to add the wire you need. What is the big deal ?

If you want to have a bigger panel and still need more wire, same deal. Nice if you could get it another way, but not worth a huge effort.

Or you can leave it and add the sub. I would still prefer a simple main over 6 at the entrance tho...

 

[AntonLargiader]

Just out of curiosity... say you had an 8-space MLO panel and then filled it with single breakers. Could you just handle-tie adjoining breakers regardless of anything else to reduce the count? Obviously 240V and MWBC breakers should be tied, but could you tie unrelated breakers?

Not that I think it's a good idea, I'm just curious. I will have an 8-space MLO panel with only two to four breakers in but it's getting a backfed main breaker anyway.

 

[Norcal]

Could you simply cut 6" off the pipe and mount a new larger panel. You would get more slack in the wire to reach a main. Putting in a sub panel is a fine option but this may be just another option.




It did look a bit different than a normal 3 pole, took me a bit to figure out what it could be. I finally googled a picture of a 2 pole shunt trip and it looks like a winner.

Your correct.

I'm guessing he ordered it with all those breakers. It's substantially cheaper to order a panel full of breakers than to buy those same breakers after the fact, at least for bolt on or any 3 pole stuff.

Panel was empty, I had the breakers & since the panel deadfront had all the twist outs removed it was either use breakers on hand or filler plates, the cost was the same to me

 

[BentBierz]

My take on your op was that you wanted to just add a main to your panel to make it compliant. The issue was too short of wire to do that. The simple solution as I posted above is to use some splicers to add the wire you need. What is the big deal ?

Yeah...not quite certain I was making a big deal out of anything...just having a conversation and trying to get as much info as I can...that is what I tend to do so I don't frig things up. Sorry if I wasted your time by not immediately taking your advice as the sole solution. Peace out.