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Sizing solar panels for hydronic floor heat

Racecarl

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
474
Location
McCook, NE
I am builidng a 24 X 30 shop in southwest Nebraska (McCook). Today I finally got done building forms for the poured foundation walls. Due to city code the walls have to be 8" thick and at least 40" below grade. I dug a trench 10" wide and 46" deep. On the inside walls of the trench I installed 2" of XPS - 250 insulation. I layed the insulation sheets on their sides and the top of the sheets will match the top of the floor. I will also lay 4 X 8 sheets of insulation around the inner perimeter of the walls when I get the forms stripped off the walls. I have 3 - 250' rolls of 1/2" PEX that I will install in the floor. This will be all one big area so I don't believe any zoning valves are necessary.

I want to build solar panels to heat my shop and have been unsuccessful in my search for information regarding solar panel sizing. I will be using an electric water heater as a surge tank and as a backup heat source. Does anyone have any info or a web site that can help me out?

Thanks in advance!
 
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seatec

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
23
Location
Nova Scotia
Why not try hot air solar panels, thats what I just tried in my new shop. I put a 45 ft section in cement floor to see how it would work, I think its going to be ok, wish I had put 4 loops in. I just run it back to panel, a closed loop. Panel is on a swivel, just put up another one today on a hinge. My panels can be seen at www.atlanticenergy.ca, pictures of my shop at www.burgmantrikes.com, I will try to get some posted here when I can. My panels put uot about 5000+ btus when I get a good sun. Wayne-seatec
 
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VHF

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Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
420
Location
NW Wisconsin
To accurately determine solar panel sizing you would need to do a comprehensive heat loss calculation for your building as well as take into account available sun at your location. Also, how warm do you want your shop, and do you want to hold it at a specific temperature, or is it OK if is cools off some during a string of cloudy days?

In Wisconsin, most of the active solar-heated houses I have seen have 200 to 400 square feet of flat plate collectors (eight 4'x8' panels would be a typical installation). The output of the collectors is pumped to an insulated storage tank anywhere between 150 and 500 gallons--depends how many cloudy days in a row you want the system to handle. These systems typically provide from 45% to 75% of the heating load of a super-insulated house as well as heating the domestic hot water. Backup heat is usually provided by a gas-fired boiler or tankless water heater that operates on demand only when the water in the storage tank isn't hot enough.

For a shop/garage I would consider a much simpler system: pump the output from the solar panels directly to the in-floor tubing. This eliminates the need for a storage tank, keeps the system simple, and allows higher efficiencies because you can harvest solar energy at lower temperatures. It takes a good sunny day to produce 140F water when it is 10F outside, but you can get 90F water back from the collectors even on a partly cloudy winter day. By using the slab itself as thermal storage (rather than a tank of water), you can put the heat directly where it will be used as well as take advantage of low-temperature heat.

You would probably still want some type of backup heat, both to take the chill off in the morning and to make up for lack of solar after several consecutive cloudy days. But by keeping this a separate system (perhaps some type of electric or gas-fired radiant heat suspended from the ceiling), you avoid complexity in the solar system, take advantage of the most available solar energy, and also have the ability to quickly warm up the shop (using the backup system) when you are going to work in there.

You should also insulate under the entire slab, not just the perimeter, or you will be loosing heat to the cooler ground (heat always moves from warmer to cooler.) If you want a larger heat sink than the slab itself can provide, create a sand bed under the floor. Dig down 6" to 24", lay your vapor barrier and insulation, and fill with sand. You can then start operating the solar system in late summer/early fall to pre-charge the sand bed with heat before the cold weather hits. These systems have proven effective, but you do give up some control as it can take weeks to significantly change the temperature of the sand bed (and thus your floor.)

The trouble with using an electric water heater for thermal storage is that it is not big enough to store enough BTUs--even if you have the tank up to 150F at the end of a sunny afternoon, you will use up that heat within the first couple evening hours. The other gotcha is when to operate the electric element. You don't want the element coming on in the morning and heating the water in the tank before the sun has a chance to do it! This could perhaps be handled with a timer and manual "cloudy day" override switch to switch on the electric element.

(Note that a single-tank solution using a hot water heater works fine for solar heated domestic hot water--the best practice is to use a large tank (at least 85 gallons) with only the top element connected. The electric element then heats the top 30 gallons or so, and the sun heats the bottom of the tank when it can--if there is enough solar heat the electric element isn't needed at all. However, space heating requires a lot more BTUs than just heating water for showers, dishwasher, etc., so 150 gallons is the minimum tank size for a storage system.)

www.builditsolar.com has some interesting projects, including home-built collectors (using copper or PEX) for a fraction of the cost of manufactured panels. Make sure to check out the "solar shed" project!
 

samson smith

New member
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
1
Location
canada
Why not try hot air solar panels, thats what I just tried in my new shop. I put a 45 ft section in cement floor to see how it would work, I think its going to be ok, wish I had put 4 loops in. I just run it back to panel, a closed loop. Panel is on a swivel, just put up another one today on a hinge. My panels can be seen at www.atlanticenergy.ca, pictures of my shop at www.burgmantrikes.com, I will try to get some posted here when I can. My panels put uot about 5000+ btus when I get a good sun. Wayne-seatec

Useful advice of hot air solar panels.....!!thanks
 

Fastback

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
518
Location
Indy
You must research "evacuated tube solor collectors" those have been used for domestic hot water for restaurants in the northeast with great performance, they are the most efficient thing going.

Check EBay for prices, best bang for the buck by far.

Basically they are glass tubes that are under vacuum with an ounce of alcohol (or equivalent) that becomes super heard steam before the tube even hits 90, the vacuum is the key. I was going to go that route myself but I do not get enough sun I jan/feb to justify it.


Edit. I can't believe I responded to a thread that an archeologist would have ignored....
 

Jackfre

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Messages
4,417
Location
N CA
I was in the solar business some 30 yrs ago and I believe the ratio of collector to storage we used was 1.68 gal/sqft of collector. I think you need storage as you can better control temp, but a 600 gallon tank another matter. As well, you do not want to thermal shock you system and you can get very high temps out of a stagnated collector. FYI, there are 7.48 gal/cu ft. It's a good welding project:)

I would suggest a back-up heater in the Rinnai EX38 range. You will then have a two system plan that will give you heat on demand and let the solar do it's thing when it can.
 
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Racecarl

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
474
Location
McCook, NE
Wow, this IS an old thread! I do have the shop built and finished on the outside. I have around 2' of blown in cellulose in the ceiling, and 6" of fiberglass in the walls. All the windows are double pane, the walk door is unsulated, and the 10T X 16W Raynor garage door is R-19 and well-sealed. It was below zero recently and it never froze inside the shop. I have a 35,000 btu Mr Heater portable propane radiant heater that makes the temp bearable inside.

I have not started on the solar panels yet. I purchased some old sliding glass doors from a high school that was remodeled. These are tempered glass panes with aluminum frames. I plan to modify the frames so I can make double pane glazing for the collector box. My plan is to use corrugated aluminum painted/anodized black that will absorb the sun's rays. Propylene glycol will circulate via thermosyphon into an insulated tank in the attic, where the heat will be exchanged into three floor circuits. I will build one of these panels to see what kind of heat gain it will yield.

I am still getting things organized on the inside of the shop. I have begun installing a 5 hp 23 cfm compressor, hoping to get done with that project by the end of the week. Vacation is a good thing to use up. I promise to get some pics posted!
 
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