SK tools core focus

[Nelson58]

Nelson:

okay, I've got my wires crossed again. (no big surprise, right?)

the S-K set in the shrink wrap was a 1/4" drive set:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-K-TOOLS-2...:g:obUAAOSw44BYPM1X&item=112243591455&vxp=mtr

only thing I'm seeing coming up for NEW S-K 1/2" drive is:
a set of SAE deep-wells:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-K-Tools-8...:g:iKMAAOSw44BYMhTp&item=152325523439&vxp=mtr

... if you go with "used", prices drop considerably:

S-K:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SK-Hand-Too...:g:kpcAAOSwal5YLjql&item=262767832155&vxp=mtr

...or for another hundred bucks you can have a new 47-piece set that includes all that plus metric:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SK-Tools-47...:g:sQEAAOSwEzxYXGHA&item=302174191712&vxp=mtr

and two sets of well-used sockets only:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-S-K...888202?hash=item1ebe5e940a:g:o3wAAOSw6DtYXVcz

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-S-k...385097?hash=item360eabf7c9:g:nlIAAOSw2xRYUV96

... best I can do on short notice.

There are a lot of 1/4" sets. Too light duty. Years ago plenty of 3/8 and 1/2 sets with metric. No more I see. I got a 3/8 but no 1/2. I want the old quality not the new ones for $300.

Very few used sets . I will have to buy ratchets and sockets separately .

 

[Roberts210]

.........Ideal is a family business (please don't call it "blue collar", I call it hereditary wealth and privilege, that's very different, in fact the opposite of blue collar.......

Pulheeze. Privilege? If indeed Ideal is a family business, why shouldn't heirs of the founder own the business and run it and make good money from it? What, they should turn it over to you?

Most of those spouting off about "privilege" today are in fact green with jealousy that their ancestors weren't as successful and lucky and talented and as hard-working as Ideal, or any other multi-generational successful enterprise.

 

[mikebaker1129]

I have bought tools from everybody for over forty years and had great service from all of them and poor service from all of them depending on the person you dealt with at the time. I am a big fan of the Ideal company and what they are trying to do with SK Western Forge Pratt and Read and other companies. They are putting their money where others put their mouths. Thanks for the effort and money you have spent and I own Sk tools from the seventies all the way to today and love the X frame wrenches over the other ratcheting wrenches I own. More power to ya and Thanks Again for investing in America with American workers and steel to rebuild Sk tools.

Well said !

 

[1982fxr]

I guess this company just offends my sensibilities. They touch a nerve with me in ways few companies do.

1) they bought the brand name, not the company. They retained no personnel or equipment. They were a start up. So don't talk about SKs 100 year legacy. That has nothing to do with a Ideal, a company known only for cheap builder grade hardware and craftsman clear handle screwdrivers

2) don't brag about superkrome then ship tools with imperfect chrome, then make out like people are seeing things. Is it paint? Is it a Chrome? Just tell us the truth and let us get behind you. It's a start up. They started from scratch in 2010. There are gonna be bumps in the road.

3) x-wrench is a brilliant solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Anyone ever sheared the head off a wrench? We don't need that truss thing. Make them longer, thinner, something, anything useful. Don't tell me this is innovation. Go ask mechanics what they need.

I guess I read the x wrench, the belief that they can buy a brand name and make tools better than the company that just went bankrupt, as arrogant management. And Tory seem willing to play loose and fast with facts.

Ideal is a family business (please don't call it "blue collar", I call it hereditary wealth and privilege, that's very different, in fact the opposite of blue collar. I grew up in a blue collar family) so we don't know whether they are hemoraging money or not. And we may never know. We know they have a new CEO for SK. Can't read anything into that.

For the record, I've seen a lot of military tool boxes and I've never seen an SK tool. Not saying they aren't out there. USAF uses Snap On. Last USMC box I saw was Proto.

Sorry if this touches a nerve with you, I'm just saying why I feel the way I do. Merry Christmas.

Dude maybe it's time to go see the doc again and get the cocktail adjusted...

 

[Fedwrench]

I've wondered who is at the helm at SK for awhile.

I've been an SK user for over 45 years. I don't like everything they make. I like some of their preideal made tools like their older green handled screwdrivers than the current ideal made versions.

I think SK would like to be the professional mechanic's tool of choice but, they just aren't there yet.

SK has always been a good choice for U.S. Made mid grade mechanics tools. However, I feel SK needs to do a better job of bringing new products to market.
Extra long breaker bars, locking impact extensions, and the X Frame ratcheting wrenches were all great additions but, I feel the release of their high end aluminum tool carts missed their mark. SK needs to remain focused on their core hardline.

 

[1982fxr]

I've wondered who is at the helm at SK for awhile.

I've been an SK user for over 45 years. I don't like everything they make. I like some of their preideal made tools like their older green handled screwdrivers than the current ideal made versions.

I think SK would like to be the professional mechanic's tool of choice but, they just aren't there yet.

SK has always been a good choice for U.S. Made mid grade mechanics tools. However, I feel SK needs to do a better job of bringing new products to market.
Extra long breaker bars, locking impact extensions, and the X Frame ratcheting wrenches were all great additions but, I feel the release of their high end aluminum tool carts missed their mark. SK needs to remain focused on their core hardline.

The tool carts missed their mark? How can you possibly know that? Those carts are for specific markets and industries. Do you know about contracts they have in place with government/industry? How many were sold before assembly even began? What's the profit margin? Etc etc......

Not trying to be a jerk but for all we know those carts got them into some contracts that were worth millions. Or maybe not. We have no clue...

 

[PJNJ]

I guess this company just offends my sensibilities. They touch a nerve with me in ways few companies do.

1) they bought the brand name, not the company. They retained no personnel or equipment. They were a start up. So don't talk about SKs 100 year legacy. That has nothing to do with a Ideal, a company known only for cheap builder grade hardware and craftsman clear handle screwdrivers

2) don't brag about superkrome then ship tools with imperfect chrome, then make out like people are seeing things. Is it paint? Is it a Chrome? Just tell us the truth and let us get behind you. It's a start up. They started from scratch in 2010. There are gonna be bumps in the road.

3) x-wrench is a brilliant solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Anyone ever sheared the head off a wrench? We don't need that truss thing. Make them longer, thinner, something, anything useful. Don't tell me this is innovation. Go ask mechanics what they need.

I guess I read the x wrench, the belief that they can buy a brand name and make tools better than the company that just went bankrupt, as arrogant management. And Tory seem willing to play loose and fast with facts.

Ideal is a family business (please don't call it "blue collar", I call it hereditary wealth and privilege, that's very different, in fact the opposite of blue collar. I grew up in a blue collar family) so we don't know whether they are hemoraging money or not. And we may never know. We know they have a new CEO for SK. Can't read anything into that.

For the record, I've seen a lot of military tool boxes and I've never seen an SK tool. Not saying they aren't out there. USAF uses Snap On. Last USMC box I saw was Proto.

Sorry if this touches a nerve with you, I'm just saying why I feel the way I do. Merry Christmas.

No, it doesn't touch a nerve with me but it is very obvious it touches a lot of nerves with you. Okay, you hate SK (and live and breath Snap On) but "hereditary wealth and privilege"? Do you personally know any of the family in order to be able to make that assertion? Your statement contains a lot more but that is the one that sticks out the most.

But in the spirit of the season - Merry Christmas.

 

[Al Borland]

Don't know much about the "New" S-K, but their SK Wayne-era sockets were great. Ratchets... we felt that S-K stood for "Slip-Kill" or "Split-Knuckles". We all used them, and were careful about the torque we applied to them. Not Craftsman RP level of dangerous, but not as good as New Britain or Indestro/Wizard.
Facom... we kinda mispronounced on purpose. Didn't like the selectors on the ratchets and didn't like the French making our tools.
Ideal makes me think of the kid's toy maker from the 70s and 80s...
But I'm a grumpy old man.

 

[four.cycle]

There are a lot of 1/4" sets. Too light duty. Years ago plenty of 3/8 and 1/2 sets with metric. No more I see. I got a 3/8 but no 1/2. I want the old quality not the new ones for $300.

Very few used sets . I will have to buy ratchets and sockets separately .

^ New listings come up every day, so it's always in a state of flux. Metric socket sets outsell SAE socket sets now (at least on Ebay.) Anything in cherry condition is going to sell fast fast fast.
Yes, there seems to be no shortage of S-K 1/4" drive sets in the second-hand market. Fewer of the 3/8", and even less of the 1/2" drive (except for sets of sockets only with no accessories, but unfortunately too many of them have been beat to hell or left out in the rain.)
All I can say is keep looking. One thing I have learned about Ebay is that no matter what it is, there will be another one that shows up sooner or later.

I'll keep my eye out and send you a PM if I see anything.

 

[Fedwrench]

The tool carts missed their mark? How can you possibly know that? Those carts are for specific markets and industries. Do you know about contracts they have in place with government/industry? How many were sold before assembly even began? What's the profit margin? Etc etc......

Not trying to be a jerk but for all we know those carts got them into some contracts that were worth millions. Or maybe not. We have no clue...

I seriously doubt that the aluminum tool carts got SK anything other than exposure at a trade show or at the race track. SK isn't playing in direct government sales at this point in time. There are third party vendors like Klepper tool that do offer GMTKs and other sets in SK trim though.
What I meant by SK missing their mark with the expensive aluminum tool carts is that they are priced out of most SK tool users price range. It's just my opinion but, SK has always been about their core hardline and the only toolboxes they were ever known for were the little hammer tone green metal boxes their socket sets came in.

 

[1982fxr]

Ahhh those green boxes were so sweet

 

[jeffmoss26]

Jori from HJE needs to chime in - they are an SK distributor.

 

[TheGrooveking]

And when was the last time a Snap On truck showed up at an industrial factory or an engineering center? Never. Snap On tools isn't just sold off trucks and used in garages. Industry uses their (snappy) tools and trucks don't go to those places.....and many wouldn't be allowed due to security anyways.

Tools are purchased through a PO and replaced via a phone call when broken. No different if they are SK, Snap On or Proto.

I work for a very large corporation that has 39 manufacturing plants ( average plant size is 1.3 million square feet) in the United States and most of them have Matco, Snap On and more showing up weekly. Many of the drivers visit four times a week to see all the shifts, and they sell to more than just maintenance personnel.

TheGrooveking

 

[SuperCheyenne]

nevermind... covered by Grooveking.

 

[bob15]

I work for a very large corporation that has 39 manufacturing plants ( average plant size is 1.3 million square feet) in the United States and most of them have Matco, Snap On and more showing up weekly. Many of the drivers visit four times a week to see all the shifts, and they sell to more than just maintenance personnel.

TheGrooveking

It depends on the work you are doing (plant security-wise) and on how the plants are set-up for purchases, all be it: maintenance, engineering, tool room, prototype or the manufacturing workers.

We have an industrial account and a call to Snap On (corporate) with a PO number and the tool arrives the next day (if it isn't in the crib). We don't have trucks showing up. Heck, until just recently, you couldn't even enter the company grounds without a badge and/or being greeted by a specific person. I also know of several other large facilities that do military government work and that is same with them. One call and the tool is ordered. That being said, with one of the companies I am quite familiar with, Bonney was their biggest tool supplier before they were shuttered by Cooper. it is now Snap On industrial.

 

[WhiffySpark]

This is what we get

 

[bob15]

This is what we get

they are definitely higher priced.

The 86255 (15 pc) is on amzon for $155....$259 on your sheet. What is odd is that the 13 piece set is $40 more, with 2 less wrenches. Aren't they the same wrenches?

The 21 pc is $596 on amazon and $929 on your sale sheet.

The metric x-frame is is 100 bucks cheaper on amazon. But if you buy the x wrench through your seller, you get a free knife (a 19.99 value)

 

[jubilee]

In 1957, when I got my first car, my Dad bought me a SK tool chest full of tools. I Think he said they cost around $350 (about $3000 today) or about 5 times the price of the car. He said if I took care of the tools, they would last me a lifetime. So far, he was right. All the sockets are 12 pt. as were all in those days. Many of the more commonly used sockets and end wrenches have been replaced over the years because they simply wore out. I haven't replaced any of the tools in the past 10 or so because I just don't use and wear them out like I use to. I feel the toughness and hardness of the replaced tools is a little better than the originals but, not the fit and finish.
I might add that I do still do heavy duty truck repair but, the SK's are locked up in the parts room. I get them out when me and the Grandsons are working on their cars.

 

[WhiffySpark]

they are definitely higher priced.

The 86255 (15 pc) is on amzon for $155....$259 on your sheet. What is odd is that the 13 piece set is $40 more, with 2 less wrenches. Aren't they the same wrenches?

The 21 pc is $596 on amazon and $929 on your sale sheet.

The metric x-frame is is 100 bucks cheaper on amazon. But if you buy the x wrench through your seller, you get a free knife (a 19.99 value)

I've never looked into it anymore than that. We get 20% off usually and they deduct it evenly through 5 pay periods. But like I said if I'm spending that much I'd rather buy snapon. Which I did

 

[Adam.C]

Snap On has industrial reps that do not visit auto shops. The two cannot sell to each others' customers, tho I've bought stuff on special from my company's industrial rep. Got pliers at 20% off, a little screw driver set. Guy sent out an email to interested employees once a year. Our shop gets weekly service at least. Guy comes thru the electrical line with a bag of pliers and just swaps whatever he find that he doesn't like the looks of. We have the new electronic tool control which is pretty cool. I guess the boxes are all Epics.

 

[bczygan]

Where to buy?

A quick search on their website produced the DISTRIBUTORS nearby:

I've also seen them retail at a place that sells cheap China tools and bulk fasteners.



Grainger 5.6 miles
25940 Groesbeck Hwy.
Warren, MI
(586) 772-7790

Grainger 8.07 miles
1201 W. Lafayette Blvd.
Detroit, MI
(313) 965-3500

Grainger 11.09 miles
1587 E. Whitcomb Ave.
Madison Heights, MI
(248) 585-4100

Chris Travis 18.97 miles
Livonia, MI 48125
313-683-4010

Grainger 22.28 miles
6874 Middlebelt Rd.
Romulus, MI
(734) 728-7891

Pirate Tools LLC 24.2 miles
62317 RAY CENTER RD
RAY TWP, MI 48096
5868559297
[email protected]

Grainger 25.28 miles
23800 Haggerty Rd Ste 2
Farmington Hills, MI
(888) 805-8832

Grainger 25.28 miles
23800 Haggerty Rd.
Farmington Hills, MI
(248) 474-0300

Grainger 41.89 miles
2915 Boardwalk St.
Ann Arbor, MI
(734) 662-1060

This is the place bolded above.

Kitts Industrial Tools 27600 w. 8 mile rd,Farmington Hills,MI 48336

 

[BFHtime]

To answer Yankee's question.

Craftsman industrial is US made. I have bunch of different brands. I have a pretty good amount of Snap-On and old Craftsman 20+ years old. I still use Craftsman and any other brand that gets the job done. I do really like Snap-On, but I have few harbor freight pieces. I have learned the hard way, that it is good to have some inexpensive tools. I lost a Snap-On swivel at the junk yard, I was pissed. Lost no warranty. Something to think about.

Since then I am more **** about keeping track of tools.

 

[Chief919]

For the record, I've seen a lot of military tool boxes and I've never seen an SK tool. Not saying they aren't out there. USAF uses Snap On. Last USMC box I saw was Proto.

That's not how military tool procurement works. The USAF nor any other branch uses one brand exclusively, saying something like "the USAF uses Snap-On" isn't totally accurate as while they do use Snap-On they don't do so with any exclusivity and in fact use pretty much all US made brands.

Tools sets are ordered via an assigned NSN and every individual tool in that kits has an NSN. Those stock numbers are not tied to any manufacturer, just to a spec. If the NSN is for a 1/2 drive 15mm socket you get one that meets that spec from any of a number of makers.

I might order a tool kit and it comes 100% Snap-On, but more than likely it will come as a mixed kit that a third party like Kipper Tool put together because rarely does an OEM kit meet all the specs out of the box.

Then a year later if a wrench from that set gets lost it gets reordered by its stock number. That wrench may come in a Snap-On just like the rest, it may come in Mac, Proto, Armstrong or something else. The NSN will get you a wrench that meets the spec, who made it depends on who has the contract. For example if that tool kit came from Kipper and they also have the supply contract for the replacement item NSN's maybe they shipped it with Armstrong originally but now are buying SK to fill contracts so your replacement piece will be SK.

Having worked with Army tool sets for nearly 25 years I can assure you SK has always been a huge presence in military tools. If you want ch people selling surplus military tool sets on eBay you will see SK as one of the most commonly listed brands.

 

[PJNJ]

That's not how military tool procurement works. The USAF nor any other branch uses one brand exclusively, saying something like "the USAF uses Snap-On" isn't totally accurate as while they do use Snap-On they don't do so with any exclusivity and in fact use pretty much all US made brands.

Tools sets are ordered via an assigned NSN and every individual tool in that kits has an NSN. Those stock numbers are not tied to any manufacturer, just to a spec. If the NSN is for a 1/2 drive 15mm socket you get one that meets that spec from any of a number of makers.

I might order a tool kit and it comes 100% Snap-On, but more than likely it will come as a mixed kit that a third party like Kipper Tool put together because rarely does an OEM kit meet all the specs out of the box.

Then a year later if a wrench from that set gets lost it gets reordered by its stock number. That wrench may come in a Snap-On just like the rest, it may come in Mac, Proto, Armstrong or something else. The NSN will get you a wrench that meets the spec, who made it depends on who has the contract. For example if that tool kit came from Kipper and they also have the supply contract for the replacement item NSN's maybe they shipped it with Armstrong originally but now are buying SK to fill contracts so your replacement piece will be SK.

Having worked with Army tool sets for nearly 25 years I can assure you SK has always been a huge presence in military tools. If you want ch people selling surplus military tool sets on eBay you will see SK as one of the most commonly listed brands.

Thanks for the explanation. I've always wondered how it worked. And you actually have the background to explain it. It seems sometimes that there's too many "experts" around here without any real experience.

 

[TheGrooveking]

Adam.C SK - Ideal did get tooling from the previous SK - Facom, so the claim that they were a new start up is not 100% correct.

TheGrooveking

 

[Chief919]

Thanks for the explanation. I've always wondered how it worked. And you actually have the background to explain it. It seems sometimes that there's too many "experts" around here without any real experience.

At one point I had around $800,000 worth of tools I was accountable for, so I had to become more than just a little familiar with how it all worked!

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Thanks for the explanation. I've always wondered how it worked. And you actually have the background to explain it. It seems sometimes that there's too many "experts" around here without any real experience.

+1

Its similar at our helicopter facility ... tools, hardware, raw materials are tied to a "spec" and either it gets bid out or fulfilled by suppliers on contract. Hand tools predominately SO with a good mix of Proto. Makita for cordless tools and MagLight for torches.

 

[SK Eric]

Let me respond from inside the walls of S·K. Owner #3 of S·K (the ones just prior to us) just gutted the company. Their model was to strip the cash out of it, defer investment in the company and then spin it off. What was left was not a company in bankruptcy, but a company that was dead. No operations, broken machinery, burned sales channels, laid-off personnel. It was nasty.

Re-building it with a commitment to keeping it a USA manufacturing company has been a huge, monumental struggle, from salvaging and moving the machines to Sycamore, and trying to learn the decades of tribal knowledge that was lost. We've had some significant bumps in the road, and no doubt will have some more going forward, but the good news is 1) we're making real progress and 2) IDEAL is committed to getting it right. We have some great new tools coming in 2017, as well as a brand new website with a complete catalog, cool stories (bro), and easier warranty service.

 

[Hiball]

Let me respond from inside the walls of S·K. Owner #3 of S·K (the ones just prior to us) just gutted the company. Their model was to strip the cash out of it, defer investment in the company and then spin it off. What was left was not a company in bankruptcy, but a company that was dead. No operations, broken machinery, burned sales channels, laid-off personnel. It was nasty.

Re-building it with a commitment to keeping it a USA manufacturing company has been a huge, monumental struggle, from salvaging and moving the machines to Sycamore, and trying to learn the decades of tribal knowledge that was lost. We've had some significant bumps in the road, and no doubt will have some more going forward, but the good news is 1) we're making real progress and 2) IDEAL is committed to getting it right. We have some great new tools coming in 2017, as well as a brand new website with a complete catalog, cool stories (bro), and easier warranty service.

Calling the Claude Fuger era "Nasty" is a understatement, as always thanks for stepping into battlefield and clearing up a few things. I wanted to set the record straight, but I simply lack the energy to call out people on there BS anymore. I've never seen such a group that can continually argue about tool brands as much as they do around here, so much brand hatred, it makes me wonder how they make it thru the day, when serious issues arise.

I hope 2017 is a Great year for Ideal and it's employees.. Thanks for stopping in.

 

[jakemac]

Thank you Eric, for continuing to keep us informed from "inside the walls".
Real information is always more helpful than rumor or speculation.
I, for one, am encouraged by Ideal's efforts to rebuild SK and its commitment to keeping the brand a true USA company.
I look forward to seeing SK continue to grow its distribution and local availability.

 

[Derek420]

I just got an SK catalog and their aim is at mechanics if you look through one it's obvious as there is a lot of picture and talk about it.

 

[Infinia]

Thank you 'SK Eric' for your insight!
my thoughts...
The global tool market between USA made truck brands and industrial or decent big box offerings is huge, room enough for SK to succeed in. Their listed price range could easily be half of the tool trucks. I think folks would readily pay up to x2 of a Gearwrench brand for a quality USA tool. One price model has volume production the other does not. Go exactly in the middle and no one wins? PS I'll always cherish my 1990s Craftsman Professional wrench set made by SK and 1980's 1/4 in socket set in a lovely finished metal box. I grew up with a SK 3/8 small socket set my dad bought in the Base PX in the 70's. That is when I started to appreciate a quality factor in tools that cant be easily put in words.

 

[Banshee365]

I hope SK gets the respect and sales deserve very soon.

Made in USA commitment means something people!

 

[Chief919]

Thank you 'SK Eric' for your insight!
my thoughts...
The global tool market between USA made truck brands and industrial or decent big box offerings is huge, room enough for SK to succeed in. Their listed price range could easily be half of the tool trucks. I think folks would readily pay up to x2 of a Gearwrench brand for a quality USA tool. One price model has volume production the other does not. Go exactly in the middle and no one wins? PS I'll always cherish my 1990s Craftsman Professional wrench set made by SK and 1980's 1/4 in socket set in a lovely finished metal box. I grew up with a SK 3/8 small socket set my dad bought in the Base PX in the 70's. That is when I started to appreciate a quality factor in tools that cant be easily put in words.

Agreed. And with the speed of shipping and the availability of companies like Amazon who can serve as logistics partners and distribution channels at reasonable cost the truck model isn't the only way to do things anymore. A strong online sales channel or channels along with some strong retail partners in store would be a great model.

 

[TheGrooveking]

S-K Eric, thank you for your input.

Hiball, I agree 100% about the negativity that gets rechurned here.

This may come across as me getting on my soapbox, to all if we don't support companies like S-K Ideal by buying "Made in the USA" they will become history.

I'll be buying a lot of new S-K going forward.

TheGrooveking

 

[jsackin]

We have been selling "the new" SK ever since the first SK Day, which if you remember that far back was entirely because of the efforts here on Garagejournal to support US manufacturers.

Our customers vary. The one's that come in the store are mostly tradesman, i.e. millwrights, ironworkers, sheet metal workers, carpenters, machinists, construction workers, etc. A lot of them remember SK from their father's tool box and the name still means something in terms of quality. Most of our in-store customers are not as brand conscious. They just want a good quality US tool at an affordable price. So they buy a little Wright, a little SK, some old closeouts we have in our basement. Our online SK sales slant more towards mechanics, and again I would imagine that is largely because of the community here.

Overall I've been happy with SK. We stopped distributing for them before the bankruptcy because it was next to impossible to get merchandise from them. While there have been issues with getting a few of their products, overall they are shipping much much better, and I am excited to see some of their new products next year.

Also we warranty for SK and haven't noticed anything out of line with the other US tool companies we warranty for. They always seem to take care of our customers.

Jori
HJE

 

[PFSard]

Real information is always more helpful than rumor or speculation.

Here, here. Thanks for the update, Eric.

 

[Nelson58]

Thanks for that Eric. I love that Ideal is working hard to resurrect the SK brand. I hope they are successful. I love those tools.

 

[mikebaker1129]

I like SK stuff and will continue to support them.
I like the made in the USA commitment and it must be hard to compete with the Asian made offerings when a lot of Anericans are shopping price.
I would love to see an SK truck pull up at our shop.

 

[Denwad]

Thanks for the explanation. I've always wondered how it worked. And you actually have the background to explain it. It seems sometimes that there's too many "experts" around here without any real experience.

been in the army 9 years, i can confirm that this is the way it works.