SK vs Proto heritage and future direction

[mx_599]

Hey everyone! I love all tools but need some new stuff.

I know there are many threads on this topic but couldn't find some of the comments I was hoping for.

I feel betrayed and let down by Craftsman.

It is my understanding the main American made players are Snap-on, SK, and Proto, more or less?

I really cannot afford Snap-on and need to make sure I can easily enough mail order or go to a store if I need to get tools. Not sure if some are box truck only. I am just a homeowner, not business. I don't want to have to depend a truck...I don't think anyway.

It seems like a lot of connection between many of these companies looking into their histories on wiki.

I mainly do automotive and/or construction equipment/restorations.

I want quality tools with good American heritage and would seem to have good future outlook for continued American production.

Do you guys agree SK or Proto would likely be good candidates? I was all set on Proto...but then decided maybe I should look at SK or someone else before I commit.

Not sure if SK has lots of Black Oxide...but I was going to get a bunch of Black Oxide Proto tools.

I will be super upset if whatever brand I get ends up moving manufacture in the coming years.

Does anyone have any brief comments or insight? I just want to finalize my decision. I know I can get a mix of brands, not like I am sponsored, but I tend to try to stick with a single brand. Maybe I should get over it...

Awesome forum!

Thanks!

 

[JDon99]

Proto, Williams, Wright, or SK would all be brands that you could consider for the base tool set. Personally, I have been building my new set with Williams, but I do have some items from all of the brands listed, all are pretty good quality. By base tool set, I mean sockets/wrenches, possibly ratchets. If you like round head ratchets, a lot of guys like SK and Wrights, if you want a nice fine tooth USA pear head, you may have to look at the tool truck brands for that. Williams and Proto both make nice ratchets, but neither are fine tooth.

 

[mx_599]

Proto, Williams, Wright, or SK would all be brands that you could consider for the base tool set. Personally, I have been building my new set with Williams, but I do have some items from all of the brands listed, all are pretty good quality. By base tool set, I mean sockets/wrenches, possibly ratchets. If you like round head ratchets, a lot of guys like SK and Wrights, if you want a nice fine tooth USA pear head, you may have to look at the tool truck brands for that. Williams and Proto both make nice ratchets, but neither are fine tooth.

Great, thanks. I am not as familiar with Williams or Wright. I should look at them too.

The more I look into SK, seems like they have great heritage. Maybe I should not be so hung up on all one brand.

Do you think these brands are American stable? I feel like I don't trust Proto...but I have nothing to base that on. lol

 

[Super Sport]

Why black oxide? This really is not a great finish, and can rust pretty easily.

SK is owned by Ideal now, and as you probably already know, their history is kind of all over the place. Ideal is a fairly large company and has seemed to commit SK to USA production.
Proto is owned by Stanley, which has already outsourced their main line tools. Proto is more upmarket, and probably less likely to be outsourced.

Rather than go with one brand, I'd pick and choose. Wright, for example, offers some of the best wrenches. Snap On makes some of the best ratchets.

Also, Snap On is expensive new, because you are paying for that truck service. You can usually call and get good warranty service over the phone. If you buy used or like new, this is a good, viable option for probably the best line of USA-made tools.

 

[Brownsfan]

Don't just limit yourself to one brand. SK , Proto, Wright, Williams all make good stuff in the USA. Williams does have a Taiwan made line as well so make sure before you buy. Also Companies like Klein and Channellock make good pliers and screwdrivers in the USA.

 

[uglyjacko]

Between the 2 I'd go with proto, as I don't have to worry about warranty down the road. SK makes fine tools but we all know they've been in and out of bankruptcy, along with being bought out how many times. Proto's warranty turnaround is very quick.

 

[u118224]

You might add Armstrong to the list for consideration for wrenches and ratchets. Their chrome sockets are nothing special but everything is US made. You can get many of their items in black oxide. For chrome sockets your best bet is Proto, SK, USA Williams or Wright. I have a lot of Armstrong impact sockets and they're great. I also have SK and USA Williams impact sockets and they're excellent too.

 

[buba]

Check out the youtube video comparing Snap-on to Wright. Of course if your into restorations maybe the Wright's are too tough for the rusted bolts you will encounter. They offer industrial black finish in SAE and Metric wrenchs but I prefer the satin finish.

I have a combination of Armstrong (USA), SK and Wright and like them all.

 

[Don53]

What I've gathered -

SK is 100% US, and use that heavily in their brand marketing, so I wouldn't expect it to change anytime soon. Of course, you never know. Their parent is Ideal Industries, who also own Western Forge and Pratt Read. In general, Ideal appears to be a solid US centric company when it comes to manufacturing hand tools.

Proto has lots of US stuff, but imported stuff as well (e.g., ratcheting wrenches). One nice thing about Proto is their website clearly states what's US vs. not US. They're owned by Stanley... who of course does source their fair share from oversees. Hopefully they can keep Proto largely US sourced.

Wright is US. I haven't seen any imported Wright stuff, but can't confirm it doesn't exist. I'm sure someone will chime in. Wright is owned by Wright (crazy). I think of them as an ol' fashioned US based, US manufacturer of quality tools... probably worth a look.

Williams is Snap On's Industrial line. Lots of similar tools at reduced prices. Lots of US made tools. They have a fair amount of imports as well, but it's easy to distinguish... either by part number, or some of their retailers clearly label US vs. non US (e.g., toolsdelivered.com).

Armstrong is another brand to look at (great ratchets). I think mostly US. They're owned by Apex Tool Group. Like Stanley, Apex has its fair share of imported stuff (on other brands), but they seem to have setup Armstrong as a US brand (at least to date).

All seem to have a pretty good reputation pertaining to quality and value.

And then there's the other brands that are more specific to other tools. e.g. Channellock, Estwing, Vaughan, Klein, Lisle, etc.

Don

 

[Leoruiz]

Great, thanks. I am not as familiar with Williams or Wright. I should look at them too.

The more I look into SK, seems like they have great heritage. Maybe I should not be so hung up on all one brand.

Do you think these brands are American stable? I feel like I don't trust Proto...but I have nothing to base that on. lol

I don't consider multiple bankruptcies(SK) a great heritage.
It took them forever to get the new ratchet wrenches going. Still awaiting the "new" ratchet.
I will say Ideal appears to want to get them going but they seem to be dragging their feet.

If you sign up for a night course(always a great idea) you can probably get student discounts with Snap-On, Proto and maybe others.About 50% which makes them quite affordable. School will bring you up to date on all the new computer **** cars have.The cost of the courses will be pennies compared to the savings of D.I.Y. as opposed to Stealership repair-maintainence work.

 

[Davefr]

Between the 2 I'd go with proto, as I don't have to worry about warranty down the road. SK makes fine tools but we all know they've been in and out of bankruptcy, along with being bought out how many times. Proto's warranty turnaround is very quick.

If you're concerned about warranty, SK would be a much better choice for an end user.

Proto's warranty is handled by their industrial distributers and there are lots of stories about getting the runaround.

http://www.protoindustrial.com/en/support/Pages/Warranty.aspx

"Distributors of record must act as a return agent."


^^^This can be a huge hassle unless you have a tight relation with a distributer.

SK will handle warranty issues thru their 1-800 number w/o hassle.

However the need for a warranty is grossly overrated here at GJ.

 

[AceofSpad3s]

Great, thanks. I am not as familiar with Williams or Wright. I should look at them too.

The more I look into SK, seems like they have great heritage. Maybe I should not be so hung up on all one brand.

Do you think these brands are American stable? I feel like I don't trust Proto...but I have nothing to base that on. lol

As someone else said don't bother with black oxide. Don't buy everything from one brand, each does something well, wright has the wright grip which is just as good as snap on flankdrive+.

Personally, out of all the brands mentioned, I like sk the best since their chrome is the best I have used, plus the round head ratchets are nice.

For the history part,I like proto the best since first off, they used to be plomb. Second,they have acquired a lot of different tool manufacturers and brands. When I buy used I run across brands that I have never heard or seen before and I really enjoy looking on alloy artifacts to learn about them and finding out that they are linked to proto. There is a reason that they alloy artifacts article is called the proto empire.

 

[AceofSpad3s]

If you're concerned about warranty, SK would be a much better choice for an end user.

Proto's warranty is handled by their industrial distributers and there are lots of stories about getting the runaround.

http://www.protoindustrial.com/en/support/Pages/Warranty.aspx

"Distributors of record must act as a return agent."


^^^This can be a huge hassle unless you have a tight relation with a distributer.

SK will handle warranty issues thru their 1-800 number w/o hassle.

However the need for a warranty is grossly overrated here at GJ.

I agree, I have gotten 2 rebuild kits from sk and they were quick to get them out. Plus I asked them to send me some stickers for my box and the did.

Proto is a hassle to deal with when I needed a rebuild for my blackhawk ratchet, they wanted me to send it in instead of sending me a rebuild. Ended up just soaking it in oil to free it up.

 

[davethorik]

Since heritage means a lot to you, I'm pretty sure Wright and Snap on are the only brands listed that aren't owned by a large conglomerate. Wright makes good stuff but their lineup isn't as complete as the other brands.

I would recommend Armstrong locking flex head ratchets, you can't beat them for the price. Now they're all 88t as well.

 

[mx_599]

Thanks everyone.

I think I will just get a mix of brands!

Does anyone have some favorite mail-order places to use?

Are there any threads you can direct me to that delineate some of the best types of tools each company is known for? I know some of you already kind of did so above.

Give me a moment, I am going to address some of your posts individually now

 

[mx_599]

Why black oxide? This really is not a great finish, and can rust pretty easily.

SK is owned by Ideal now, and as you probably already know, their history is kind of all over the place. Ideal is a fairly large company and has seemed to commit SK to USA production.
Proto is owned by Stanley, which has already outsourced their main line tools. Proto is more upmarket, and probably less likely to be outsourced.

Rather than go with one brand, I'd pick and choose. Wright, for example, offers some of the best wrenches. Snap On makes some of the best ratchets.

Also, Snap On is expensive new, because you are paying for that truck service. You can usually call and get good warranty service over the phone. If you buy used or like new, this is a good, viable option for probably the best line of USA-made tools.

Good info.

You think black oxide is not a good choice? I just wanted something different, no particular reason.

I should probably look into more used stuff...I just hate to get junk. I take pretty good care of my stuff and if I get used it would have to be places like ebay. Have any of you had good luck on ebay for used?

Most of these places honor replacement regardless if you get new or used, correct?

 

[mx_599]

Don't just limit yourself to one brand. SK , Proto, Wright, Williams all make good stuff in the USA. Williams does have a Taiwan made line as well so make sure before you buy. Also Companies like Klein and Channellock make good pliers and screwdrivers in the USA.

Yes! I have Klein stuff. I use to live in Meadville, PA ....home of channel lock! even some channel lock is foreign

 

[mx_599]

You might add Armstrong to the list for consideration for wrenches and ratchets. Their chrome sockets are nothing special but everything is US made. You can get many of their items in black oxide. For chrome sockets your best bet is Proto, SK, USA Williams or Wright. I have a lot of Armstrong impact sockets and they're great. I also have SK and USA Williams impact sockets and they're excellent too.

I hadn't thought of Armstrong. I guess I have seen them online and didn't think much. Do they seem nice in person? Are they known to have any particular good niche?

 

[mx_599]

Check out the youtube video comparing Snap-on to Wright. Of course if your into restorations maybe the Wright's are too tough for the rusted bolts you will encounter. They offer industrial black finish in SAE and Metric wrenchs but I prefer the satin finish.

I have a combination of Armstrong (USA), SK and Wright and like them all.

I will look at video later, thanks. I am confused on what you meant about resto's and Wright tools?

 

[Super Sport]

Good info.

You think black oxide is not a good choice? I just wanted something different, no particular reason.

I should probably look into more used stuff...I just hate to get junk. I take pretty good care of my stuff and if I get used it would have to be places like ebay. Have any of you had good luck on ebay for used?

Most of these places honor replacement regardless if you get new or used, correct?

I don't personally own any black oxide tools (other than impact sockets), but have heard on here numerous times that they really aren't a good option for the average DIYer type.

Most places don't require a receipt for warranty. Technically Snap On only covers the original owner, but I've mailed warranty items in that I bought used and have never had an issue. I buy used tools occasionally on eBay, and if you watch for deals you can often get like new tools for a fraction of the new cost. But you do have to be somewhat careful, and good things go quick. I personally like to watch buy it now newly listed items, and grab good deals just after they get listed.

The hot deals forum will help you get good quality stuff for cheap prices as well!

 

[bassbone52]

Black oxide is normally used where flaking chrome could be an issue, like in real sensitive machinery. Also, it does tend to rust in unheated enviroments, as in a garage in colder climates. I know it is cheaper, but it's not ideal for the home mechanic. Stick with chrome or satin finish.

 

[u118224]

I hadn't thought of Armstrong. I guess I have seen them online and didn't think much. Do they seem nice in person? Are they known to have any particular good niche?

Armstong wrenches are very nice, as nice as any other manufacturer and I have quite a few Snap-On metric wrenches to compare them to. You wouldn't be disappointed with Armstrong wrenches. I can't speak to their ratchets from experience, but a lot of members here recommend the 88 tooth ratchets. Hope that helps.

 

[mx_599]

What I've gathered -

SK is 100% US, and use that heavily in their brand marketing, so I wouldn't expect it to change anytime soon. Of course, you never know. Their parent is Ideal Industries, who also own Western Forge and Pratt Read. In general, Ideal appears to be a solid US centric company when it comes to manufacturing hand tools.

Proto has lots of US stuff, but imported stuff as well (e.g., ratcheting wrenches). One nice thing about Proto is their website clearly states what's US vs. not US. They're owned by Stanley... who of course does source their fair share from oversees. Hopefully they can keep Proto largely US sourced.

Wright is US. I haven't seen any imported Wright stuff, but can't confirm it doesn't exist. I'm sure someone will chime in. Wright is owned by Wright (crazy). I think of them as an ol' fashioned US based, US manufacturer of quality tools... probably worth a look.

Williams is Snap On's Industrial line. Lots of similar tools at reduced prices. Lots of US made tools. They have a fair amount of imports as well, but it's easy to distinguish... either by part number, or some of their retailers clearly label US vs. non US (e.g., toolsdelivered.com).

Armstrong is another brand to look at (great ratchets). I think mostly US. They're owned by Apex Tool Group. Like Stanley, Apex has its fair share of imported stuff (on other brands), but they seem to have setup Armstrong as a US brand (at least to date).

All seem to have a pretty good reputation pertaining to quality and value.

And then there's the other brands that are more specific to other tools. e.g. Channellock, Estwing, Vaughan, Klein, Lisle, etc.

Don

Thanks for your time. I am going to investigate Wright.

After some thought, I realize I might as well just mix-match stuff. Not like I am getting paid to represent!

Do you guys like Craftsman USA stuff? I have quite a bit. However, I am not doing bigger machinery and that is why I am searching for tools again. Also disappointed with Craftsman which is why I am looking.

What brands do you guys like for air tools? I have a nice compressor that I need to start making use of.

 

[HanShotFirst]

If I were buying new tools, SK , Proto, Wright, and Williams are the domestic brands I would look for.

For non-ratcheting combination wrenches, Williams all the way. Their anti slip open end is world class and can hold it's own against Snap On any day.

For ratcheting, Proto's reversable ratcheting are the best design I've yet to see regardless of cost. They have the anti-slip design up front, and the splines are faceted on the box end and grip like crazy.

For sockets - SK and Wright sockets are bull strong and will last decades.

For ratchets - All of them make good ratchets, so it's just about finding the ones that float your boat. I tend to think the old school SK is about the strongest ratchet made, but they tend to be coarser teeth and they're round head (I happen to like round head ratchets), and most like teardrop. So any of the four will have suitable ratchets. Even though I think the SK ratchets are so strong, I think I'd probably end up buying Williams ratchets; they're just sweet (but I'd have an SK or two on hand for serious abuse).

Screwdrives - I like the feel of the square handled SK drivers and I've found them to be very strong, but again, all 4 companies make great screwdrivers.

As for finish, I'll take polished chrome over any finish every day of the week. Nothing is tougher, lasts longer, or takes more abuse than a proper chrome plating.

Black oxide is cheaper but often harder to find. The only real advantage of BO is that it's easy to re-finish/re-fresh and make look new/new-ish.

The alternative is black chrome like what's on the Proto reversible ratcheting wrenches...It's a decent finish, but I'd prefer regular polished chrome.

All have good support and customer service.

 

[mx_599]

I don't consider multiple bankruptcies(SK) a great heritage.
It took them forever to get the new ratchet wrenches going. Still awaiting the "new" ratchet.
I will say Ideal appears to want to get them going but they seem to be dragging their feet.

If you sign up for a night course(always a great idea) you can probably get student discounts with Snap-On, Proto and maybe others.About 50% which makes them quite affordable. School will bring you up to date on all the new computer **** cars have.The cost of the courses will be pennies compared to the savings of D.I.Y. as opposed to Stealership repair-maintainence work.

LOL, good point!

Good idea about schools. Not sure I can make time at the moment, but good idea.

I want to focus on welding course if I make any time for something.

I have lots of Park bike tools too!

 

[mx_599]

If you're concerned about warranty, SK would be a much better choice for an end user.

Proto's warranty is handled by their industrial distributers and there are lots of stories about getting the runaround.

http://www.protoindustrial.com/en/support/Pages/Warranty.aspx

"Distributors of record must act as a return agent."


^^^This can be a huge hassle unless you have a tight relation with a distributer.

SK will handle warranty issues thru their 1-800 number w/o hassle.

However the need for a warranty is grossly overrated here at GJ.

Are most places no questions asked? In the past, I have returned Craftsman for reasons most would not because I am nit picky.

 

[Brownsfan]

Look at Armstrong too. Napa has a couple good deals going on the 50+ PC 1/4 and 3/8 sets. They come with the 88 tooth ratchet. I think the 1/4 set was like 150 or less. All USA made and IMHO great quality. Some don't like the sockets because they are similar to USA craftsman. I have all USA CRAFTSMAN in my shop box and have had 0 issues.

 

[buba]

Thanks everyone.

I think I will just get a mix of brands!

Does anyone have some favorite mail-order places to use?

Are there any threads you can direct me to that delineate some of the best types of tools each company is known for? I know some of you already kind of did so above.

Give me a moment, I am going to address some of your posts individually now

Epstein's for American made tools...

http://www.harryepstein.com/

 

[sonvolt]

I have a mix of all mentioned. All are good tools, some do things better than others so I would spread the wealth.
Wrenches: Wright or Proto
Sockets: SK or Proto
Ratchets: Armstrong or SK (I like roundhead rats)
Screwdrivers: Williams or Klein
Pliers: Channelock
Ratcheting Wrenches: Armstrong or Proto

 

[HanShotFirst]

Thanks for your time. I am going to investigate Wright.

After some thought, I realize I might as well just mix-match stuff. Not like I am getting paid to represent!

Do you guys like Craftsman USA stuff? I have quite a bit. However, I am not doing bigger machinery and that is why I am searching for tools again. Also disappointed with Craftsman which is why I am looking.

What brands do you guys like for air tools? I have a nice compressor that I need to start making use of.

I like Craftsman USA wrenches, especially the older SK made Craftsman Professional wrenches. The US raised panel wrenches have always been very accurately broached and chromed well, but I haven't found them to be brute strong (not to mean they're weak by any stretch, just not as strong as other wrenches). Still, it takes some serious over-achieving to break one and they don't tear up fasteners very often. Considering you can find them dirt cheap at garage sales/swap meets/Craigslist, it would be one of the first wrenches I'd seek out if suddenly I found myself tool-less (God forbid).

Sockets - Again, broached well so easy on fasteners, but not brute strong. And just like the wrenches I find them overall quite excellent considering you can get them uber-cheap on the used market. I've always like their deep well sockets because they're pretty deep.

Ratchets - Rasied panel Craftsman ratchets from any era or any country of origin are ****! If you like broken fingers and bruised knuckles, by all means. I just can't begin to describe how much I loathe these ratchets...Buy something made in Taiwan before you use a CM raised panel (Stanley, Husky, Kobalt, Pittsburgh, etc.)

The old school Craftsman screwdrivers are excellent quality, but I don't know anyone who likes to bear down heavy on those Cellulose-Acetate handles; ouch!! I honestly don't have any of the newer ones.

 

[buba]

Black oxide is cheaper but often harder to find. The only real advantage of BO is that it's easy to re-finish/re-fresh and make look new/new-ish.

Very true statement. I have a set of Wright 91xx series cushion grip screwdrivers that belonged to my grandfather. The finish on the BO shafts was very easy to restore with a cold BO solution.

 

[mx_599]

As someone else said don't bother with black oxide. Don't buy everything from one brand, each does something well, wright has the wright grip which is just as good as snap on flankdrive+.

Personally, out of all the brands mentioned, I like sk the best since their chrome is the best I have used, plus the round head ratchets are nice.

For the history part,I like proto the best since first off, they used to be plomb. Second,they have acquired a lot of different tool manufacturers and brands. When I buy used I run across brands that I have never heard or seen before and I really enjoy looking on alloy artifacts to learn about them and finding out that they are linked to proto. There is a reason that they alloy artifacts article is called the proto empire.

good points, thanks!

I agree. The other day I bought Husky C-clamps cause I was desperate. Then I didn't need them ASAP so I brought them back.

After reading forums on here, I am proud to say I am the new owner of many vintage ebay C-clamps!! I enjoy looking up the names...some of which do not exist anymore I believe.

Have any of you had good luck buying other tools on ebay? I didn't have too much concern for C-clamps...but other tools as we have been discussing I hesitate. it will be difficult for me to go to tag sales but I suppose I can keep an eye out. In reality, I only need so many tools and I don't want to keep going to sales and end up with too many duplicates.

For me, it might just be better to buy new sub sets as I need stuff.

 

[mx_599]

Since heritage means a lot to you, I'm pretty sure Wright and Snap on are the only brands listed that aren't owned by a large conglomerate. Wright makes good stuff but their lineup isn't as complete as the other brands.

I would recommend Armstrong locking flex head ratchets, you can't beat them for the price. Now they're all 88t as well.

I will look at Armstrong.

Great, now my nights will be occupied on tool web pages

 

[u118224]

I will look at Armstrong.

Great, now my nights will be occupied on tool web pages

Well, it'll keep you out of trouble.

 

[Brownsfan]

A lot of hand tools supplied to the military are Armstrong. Also don't worry about SKs past bankruptcy. They are now fully committed to having 100% of its tool line USA made. That's a good future to me.

 

[mx_599]

Black oxide is normally used where flaking chrome could be an issue, like in real sensitive machinery. Also, it does tend to rust in unheated enviroments, as in a garage in colder climates. I know it is cheaper, but it's not ideal for the home mechanic. Stick with chrome or satin finish.

Yeah, I am sure you guys are right. I think I will. Someone mentioned chrome on the SK was pretty good. Do you guys all agree or do you feel like they’re all pretty good chrome?

My chrome Craftsman from the '90s do not seem particularly durable...do you guys concur or are 90's Craftsman similar to all these other players?

 

[mx_599]

Do any of you have the new SK combo ratcheting wrenches I see on the home page? They look nice

 

[zcbauer89]

I would go with SK or Wright. I've always had a heck of a time getting Proto stuff warrantied "here".

 

[HanShotFirst]

Well, it'll keep you out of trouble.

That's how I get INTO trouble; spending too much money. I think my wife would prefer I look at **** all day

 

[LB-1911]

Do any of you have the new SK combo ratcheting wrenches I see on the home page? They look nice

Availability is an issue at the moment - A little background -

SK X-Frame ratcheting wrenches
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=294323

SK is unveiling new ratcheting wrenches
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=266466&page=15