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SLA battery CCA vs. Ah ratings, DOES NOT COMPUTE....

TT_Vert

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So I have this battery which is 650CCA yet shows 60Ah. From the conversions I've seen it should be CCA \ 7.25 or 89.6Ah but the battery label shows otherwise. I also looked an official AC Delco spec page and it also shows this as correct. The reason I'm even asking this is because a battery charger I am using want the Ah details for computing cell status.

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djbmw

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CCA, or cold cranking amps, is how many amps the battery can deliver for 30 seconds at 0°F (-18°C) while maintaining at least 7.2V. It has nothing to do with the amp hour rating, regardless of the google search result formulas.
 

BrandonV

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All depends on how the battery is constructed. There is a slight correlation for a FLA or AGM battery but there are too many construction characteristics between batteries to calculate the CCA or AH from each other.
 

rlitman

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All depends on how the battery is constructed. There is a slight correlation for a FLA or AGM battery but there are too many construction characteristics between batteries to calculate the CCA or AH from each other.
Exactly. I'm sure AI can make some correlation between car horsepower rating and gas tank size too, but that doesn't mean there's a formulaic connection.
 
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TT_Vert

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Thanks guys. It's strange how I find the exact same info on a conversion for CCA to Ah. What doesn't make sense is this.
The conductance battery tester I have can test two ways, both using values on the battery. One way fails, one passes due to this current vs. capacity calculation.

1. Enter CCA (650A) and it fails
2. Enter Ah on label (and it passes). When I enter the 60Ah rating it does calculate that to be 480CCA which is similar to the equation online.

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Dave
 
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rlitman

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Thanks guys. It's strange how I find the exact same info on a conversion for CCA to Ah. What doesn't make sense is this.
The conductance battery tester I have can test two ways, both using values on the battery. One way fails, one passes due to this current vs. capacity calculation...
That sort of tester isn't calculating either of those values (that is physically impossible for a device like that to do that). It just makes an estimate based on industry averages, centered around starter batteries. And it's going to make terrible assumptions when faced with an SLA unknown to it. Now if you had something like a Midtronics, with a stored profile based around your specific battery model, then "internal series resistance" or impedance testing can be of value. But as it is, unless you recorded the values of that battery when brand new, this doesn't mean all that much.

And even then, at 74% of charge, simply forget about using a tester like that. It's just not reliable down there! Charge that battery all the way to float before you even bother testing CCA.
 
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TT_Vert

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That sort of tester isn't calculating either of those values (that is physically impossible for a device like that to do that). It just makes an estimate based on industry averages, centered around starter batteries. And it's going to make terrible assumptions when faced with an SLA unknown to it. Now if you had something like a Midtronics, with a stored profile based around your specific battery model, then "internal series resistance" or impedance testing can be of value. But as it is, unless you recorded the values of that battery when brand new, this doesn't mean all that much.

And even then, at 74% of charge, simply forget about using a tester like that. It's just not reliable down there! Charge that battery all the way to float before you even bother testing CCA.Right,
Right, it's not calculating but computing using a formula which appears to be Ah x 8 to get CCA. So now my concern is how can I reliably use a tester which can generate different results based on different info on the SAME label? I load tested this battery and it tested marginal but still good in my opinion. However, the other day I did the same for another battery for a friend which I am fairly certain it had a weak cell but the load test also came back good so I lost trust in this method and went out and bought a well-regarded but cheap battery tester that quite a few people on youtube like and had a TON of good reviews on amazon (I know to take those with a grain of sale). And now I'm in this position where I'm not trusting this because of what occurred above.

This tester does test IR as well and high IR would be indicative of a bad cell also. And from all of my reading a conductive tester does NOT need a fully charged battery to be accurate. Would you disagree w/ that?

Dave
 
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American Locomotive

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So now my concern is how can I reliably use a tester which can generate different results based on different info on the SAME label? I load tested this battery and it tested marginal but still good in my opinion. However, the other day I did the same for another battery for a friend which I am fairly certain it had a weak cell but the load test also came back good so I lost trust in this method and went out and bought a well-regarded but cheap battery tester that quite a few people on youtube like and had a TON of good reviews on amazon (I know to take those with a grain of sale). And now I'm in this position where I'm not trusting this because of what occurred above.

This tester does test IR as well and I'd assume very high IR would be indicative of a bad cell. And from all of my reading a conductive tester does NOT need a fully charged battery to be accurate. Would you disagree w/ that?

Dave
From what I've seen and read, those conductance testers are just not accurate. It seems like the results they spit out are seemingly arbitrary. I've seen tons of anecdotes of them saying a bad battery is good, a good battery is bad, and so on. From what I've heard from others on GJ, the only conductance testers that might be worth your time are ones that have profiles for the exact specific battery you're testing built into them.

The best battery testers IMO are the old school ones with a big giant ammeter & voltmeter with a knob you crank to turn the current up. Amps don't lie.
 
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TT_Vert

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From what I've seen and read, those conductance testers are just not accurate. It seems like the results they spit out are seemingly arbitrary. I've seen tons of anecdotes of them saying a bad battery is good, a good battery is bad, and so on. From what I've heard from others on GJ, the only conductance testers that might be worth your time are ones that have profiles for the exact specific battery you're testing built into them.

The best battery testers IMO are the old school ones with a big giant ammeter & voltmeter with a knob you crank to turn the current up. Amps don't lie.
Yeah, i'm starting to feel this way too. But I do trust guys like Eric at South Main Auto. He's the best diagnostician I've seen and I thought I was good. I don't feel like getting a carbon pile tester for the few batteries I test for myself or friends, I just wanted something that was "good enough"
 

BrandonV

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TT_Vert

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That is what I had been using for some time and it's indicating nearly every battery I've tested to be good. I know for a fact the last 2 650CCA batteries I tested were well w/in the green after putting a load on it for a good 5 seconds. That only puts a 100A load on the battery and many starters draw more than that so I started to doubt how relevant that was anymore.
Dave
 

BrandonV

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That is what I had been using for some time and it's indicating nearly every battery I've tested to be good. I know for a fact the last 2 650CCA batteries I tested were well w/in the green after putting a load on it for a good 5 seconds. That only puts a 100A load on the battery and many starters draw more than that so I started to doubt how relevant that was anymore.
Dave

Yup. They're probably not perfect but those digital units seem wonky IMO. On a carbon pile tester IIRC you're supposed to apply a load of around roughly half the CCAs to get a good idea of battery health.
 
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TT_Vert

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Yup. They're probably not perfect but those digital units seem wonky IMO. On a carbon pile tester IIRC you're supposed to apply a load of around roughly half the CCAs to get a good idea of battery health.
Yeah which that HF one doesn't do. I was just using my DVOM when cranking to do load testing which is in essence what that HF one does except the starter will provide the exact load the vehicle will draw when starting (At that temp). I'm going to do some more research and see if I can find a decent digital one that is reliable and not too expensive.

Dave
 
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BrandonV

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Yeah which that HF one doesn't do. I was just using my DVOM when cranking to do load testing which is in essence what that HF one does except the starter will provide the exact load the vehicle will draw when starting (At that temp). I'm going to do some more research and see if I can find a decent digital one that is reliable and not too expensive.

Dave

Maybe check out the Solar BA line.
 

djbmw

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The conductance tester you have is decent for quickly checking a half dozen batteries at a time to get an idea of which ones are toast, and which ones to keep. It really shouldnt be used as a specialized/accurate tool on testing an individual battery that you're focusing on.

Load testing a battery is the better way of checking a batteries condition, along with testing the acid/water levels... and checking for voltage drop while sitting for a timed duration. Those are all things you can do with the vehicle itself (to apply a load) and a cheap multimeter.
 

rlitman

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It's not calculating but computing using a formula which appears to be Ah x 8 to get CCA. So now my concern is how can I reliably use a tester which can generate different results based on different info on the SAME label? I load tested this battery and it tested marginal but still good in my opinion. However, the other day I did the same for another battery for a friend which I am fairly certain it had a weak cell but the load test also came back good so I lost trust in this method and went out and bought a well-regarded but cheap battery tester that quite a few people on youtube like and had a TON of good reviews on amazon (I know to take those with a grain of sale). And now I'm in this position where I'm not trusting this because of what occurred above.

This tester does test IR as well. And from all of my reading a conductive tester does NOT need a fully charged battery to be accurate. Would you disagree w/ that?

Dave
You're not listening. There is NO generalized fixed relationship between CCA and AH (or between either of these values and ESR). Your tester is fooling you by implying that such a relation ship exists. In reality, it tests ONE value (and truthfully its none of the above) that has a good proprotionality with ESR (when the charge state is full, and the temperature is moderate). It then hallucinates a guess about those other values based on the one fact it does know. The problem with that is without knowing more about YOUR battery, those other values aren't meaningful. It's like guessing your car's speed based on the radio volume. A big name like Midtronics comes with profiles that list known values for major lines of batteries (and matching big prices).

I happen to own a similar ESR battery tester, and I also happen to like it. But I've tested enough batteries to know its limitations. First off, when I get a new battery I'll charge it up and test it immediately, then paint-pen the values I get on the top. A few years later, when I know it's charge state is >95% (because below that, it's completely untrustworthy), I can compare the CCA with my prior value. As a general rule for standard car starter battery testing, my tester will indicate 125% to 150% of the label CCA when new, and by the time it drops to 80% of the label CCA, that battery is toast.

But even with that, there is NO point in using a tester like this to compare against multiple battery parameters. Unless we're talking about deep cycle batteries, stick with the CCA and forget the AH values. The false relationship between these two that exists ONLY within the "mind" of these testers can only lead you astray.

At the other end of the spectrum, I have experience with the commercial big brothers of these products. In the past, on my job we used an Alber Cellcorder to collect conductance history semi-annually, and currently we use Generex BACS to get hourly data (backed up by spot testing with a load bank AND Midtronics). I have a bank of 80 batteries being proactively swapped out tomorrow, based on that hourly data that's been collected since their installation in 2016. But before having that unbroken data history, there's no way I'd have the confidence to push them this far using just the Alber (roughly $8000 hardware) readings. There's value in them, when you can compare one reading against a past reading of the SAME battery, as well as when you've got hundreds of identical jars to compare, but no, it's worthless information without that foundational data.
 
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TT_Vert

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You're not listening. There is NO generalized fixed relationship between CCA and AH (or between either of these values and ESR). Your tester is fooling you by implying that such a relation ship exists. In reality, it tests ONE value (and truthfully its none of the above) that has a good proprotionality with ESR (when the charge state is full, and the temperature is moderate). It then hallucinates a guess about those other values based on the one fact it does know. The problem with that is without knowing more about YOUR battery, those other values aren't meaningful. It's like guessing your car's speed based on the radio volume. A big name like Midtronics comes with profiles that list known values for major lines of batteries (and matching big prices).

I happen to own a similar ESR battery tester, and I also happen to like it. But I've tested enough batteries to know its limitations. First off, when I get a new battery I'll charge it up and test it immediately, then paint-pen the values I get on the top. A few years later, when I know it's charge state is >95% (because below that, it's completely untrustworthy), I can compare the CCA with my prior value. As a general rule for standard car starter battery testing, my tester will indicate 125% to 150% of the label CCA when new, and by the time it drops to 80% of the label CCA, that battery is toast.

But even with that, there is NO point in using a tester like this to compare against multiple battery parameters. Unless we're talking about deep cycle batteries, stick with the CCA and forget the AH values. The false relationship between these two that exists ONLY within the "mind" of these testers can only lead you astray.

At the other end of the spectrum, I have experience with the commercial big brothers of these products. In the past, on my job we used an Alber Cellcorder to collect conductance history semi-annually, and currently we use Generex BACS to get hourly data (backed up by spot testing with a load bank AND Midtronics). I have a bank of 80 batteries being proactively swapped out tomorrow, based on that hourly data that's been collected since their installation in 2016. But before having that unbroken data history, there's no way I'd have the confidence to push them this far using just the Alber (roughly $8000 hardware) readings. There's value in them, when you can compare one reading against a past reading of the SAME battery, as well as when you've got hundreds of identical jars to compare, but no, it's worthless information without that foundational data.
Thanks for the info. I wasn't saying there is a direct correlation. I understand there cannot be due to many variables.

Dave
 

Wakefield

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Has there been a trend over the last 20 years or so for claimed CCA to go higher on popular lead- acid car batteries for cars while the weight and/or 20 hour amp- hour numbers have stayed the same or decreased somewhat ? Used to be that 610 CCA was very high and the battery weighed over 50 lb. ("J.C. Penny Battery 27F") while now 610 is kind of ordinary and might be found listed on a battery that weighs less than 40 lb. ?
J.C. Penny battery was powerful cranking on Ford 429 but was no deep cycle,if you ran it down flat,say by leaving the lights on even once, the battery would never work well at cranking again no matter how much you tried to charge it
now have an Odyssey AGM group 65 battery that weighs about 60 lb. ,it doesn't charge fully in WJ Jeep in summer but does better in winter,I think because of lower regulated voltage in summer (has a temperature sensor under battery) maybe more than a coincidence that the original headlight bulbs had still not burned out in 20 years ? (Have to touch up charge it a bit in summer) also other AGM "platinum" battery experienced weak cranking but absorbed an enormous amount of charging,now seems O.K. does not seem to lost charge outside of car if I remember the J.C. Penny battery was rated at 80 amp- hours and the Odyssey is rated at 78 amp- hours (A 27F was a little bit bigger case size than what a 65 is)
 

AntonLargiader

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It would be logical. In the real world, drivers of relatively modern vehicles need cranking power and not capacity. Capacity is always heavy but cranking power doesn't have to be. Better manufacturing of thin plates will give you the cranking power without the weight. And as we know, weight is a big deal these days.
 

californiamilleghia

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So if I take a battery in to test if its good , What does autozone or the NAPA store etc use to test it and say Good or Bad , or if they are going to Warranty it ?

Seems like its VooDoo !
 

dscheidt

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Has there been a trend over the last 20 years or so for claimed CCA to go higher on popular lead- acid car batteries for cars while the weight and/or 20 hour amp- hour numbers have stayed the same or decreased somewhat ? Used to be that 610 CCA was very high and the battery weighed over 50 lb. ("J.C. Penny Battery 27F") while now 610 is kind of ordinary and might be found listed on a battery that weighs less than 40 lb. ?

Yes, there have been substantial amounts of changes in battery tech in the last couple of decades. Capacity is largely proportional to plate mass, which isn't likely to change. But output amperage (CCA) is more complicated, depending on chemistry of the plates, and their shapes. Discharge tolerance ("deep cycle" vs not) is plate chemistry driven (more antimony in plates makes them more tolerant of discharge, but increases the amount of water they consume in charging, which means the batteries require maintenance, which isn't ever done.[1]). Expected lifespan is driven by all these things, and the charging voltage. In a modern automobile, it's probably best to stick with the battery type the manufacturer used, because they have (one hopes...) matched the alternator behavior to the battery specified.


[1] yes, yes, you always checked your battery water levels. No one else did.
 

Metal-Marc

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That is what I had been using for some time and it's indicating nearly every battery I've tested to be good. I know for a fact the last 2 650CCA batteries I tested were well w/in the green after putting a load on it for a good 5 seconds. That only puts a 100A load on the battery and many starters draw more than that so I started to doubt how relevant that was anymore.
Dave
There's your problem.

RTFM :)

Screenshot 2024-12-13 030705.jpg

https://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/61000-61999/61747-193175054432.pdf
 
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