nnoble83
Well-known member
Sea foam in everything in the fall, run till it starts to spit some white smoke, top off with fresh gas in the spring, never fails
Small engine winterizing success
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redmondjp
Well-known member
The fuel hose that I use is not crappy - it is SAE J30R7. It is still affected by the alcohol over time. I have marine tanks with the rubber fuel lines and the squeeze primer bulb that also got rock-hard from the alcohol in the fuel. What is most interesting is that when you would add E10, the alcohol would absorb into the rubber and make it softer, at least while the fuel was present. Then it would get rock-hard again after it dried out.
Since switching to alcohol-free gas, I have had none of these problems. And those outboard motor marine tank fuel hose assemblies are not cheap either - they are over $50 each now.
Also, interesting observation: I walk by a fuel farm every day (about 10 million gallons of gasoline on the site) that distributes gasoline to the greater Seattle area. They keep the alcohol in a separate tank (hmmm, I wonder why?), and mix it into the gas right as it goes into the tank trucks. Now the outside of the tank that contains alcohol is covered with black mold/mildew from the top (where the tank vents are) down. The rest of the tanks only have a light brown staining underneath their vents. The alcohol promotes the growth of something, that's for sure.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
So after reading this thread, I pulled out my mover. Stored with E10 (nearly impossible yo get E00 where I live) in the tank and the carb bowl. Add a splash of gas that I bought last fall. No, it did not start on te first half dozen pulls. Sprayed a bit of carb cleaner into the throat and it started on the second pull and ran fine for a good 5+ minutes. Replaced the air filter.
Repeat on the gas edger (also a B&S engines, but horizontal shaft). Same story. I did not replace the air filter because it has a foam pre-filter.
I need to move some junk to get to the rototiller. It is over 50 years old, but still younger than me ! Starts every spring since I have owned it (I did swap to electronic ignition. Best $25-$30 to spend on an old B&S horizontal 5 hp)
Repeat on the gas edger (also a B&S engines, but horizontal shaft). Same story. I did not replace the air filter because it has a foam pre-filter.
I need to move some junk to get to the rototiller. It is over 50 years old, but still younger than me ! Starts every spring since I have owned it (I did swap to electronic ignition. Best $25-$30 to spend on an old B&S horizontal 5 hp)
American Locomotive
Well-known member
That's because J30R7 is a nitrile hose, and Nitrile isn't fully impervious to alcohol. J30R9 "fuel injection" hose has a flouroelastomer core that can easily handle alcohol.
So they can have pure gasoline for things that might require it.
No it doesn't. Pure ethanol is used as a disinfectant and sterilizer. It kills just about anything.
Put me in the apparently "lucky" group that has never had an issue with E10 fuel. I don't winterize any of my stuff, at most I may run it out of gas. Most of my stuff sits with fuel in it over winter. Usually starts right up in the summer without a problem. I've also never personally had an issue with fuel lines deteriorating, but I have replaced lines for others. I don't blame the fuel though, I blame the cheap rubber lines modern equipment has. My 1968 Cub Cadet still has its original fuel line, and it has ethanol containing fuel put into it all the time. No issues.
Most of the small equipment repairs I get with really crunchy carbs are from equipment that was sitting outside for years without being run.
DeadPedal
Member
I admit I didn't read the whole thread but...
I put Stabil brand fuel stabilizer in my small engine fuel the minute I buy it. I just get regular pump gas, up to e15 here in Michigan. At the end of he season I run the carb dry on the mower then top up the tank. Weed wackier I do nothing, just hang it up. Otherwise I dump out fuel that gets more than a year old (gas goes in my truck, 2 stroke gets dumped). Everything starts just fine.
Stabil is a miracle product.
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I put Stabil brand fuel stabilizer in my small engine fuel the minute I buy it. I just get regular pump gas, up to e15 here in Michigan. At the end of he season I run the carb dry on the mower then top up the tank. Weed wackier I do nothing, just hang it up. Otherwise I dump out fuel that gets more than a year old (gas goes in my truck, 2 stroke gets dumped). Everything starts just fine.
Stabil is a miracle product.
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Are ethanol gasoline mixes bad- I'd say so! Just finished redoing a 20+ year old motorcycle ' s fuel system. Comparing a twin carb bike to a lawn mower is like night & day. The bike carbs are fantastically complicated - and were a fantastic mess internally! As noted prior a ultrasonic cleaner, repeatedly was the fix! The project gave me a new insight into fuel issues. 2 points & a question-
If ethanol mixes are so great- why is aviation - "av-gas" alcohol free!? I have a friend who can get it for me- but the price is steep per gallon!
Increasing numbers of fire departments are going to prepackaged "Trufuel" for saws and portable Jaws of life pumps. I think its about $5.00 per quart! Obviously an expense they're willing to pay because E85 is a problem!
Question- I'm near the ocean and there are marinas in my area. Is marine gasoline universally alcohol free? How does the price compare to to road fuel and aviation gasoline?
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If ethanol mixes are so great- why is aviation - "av-gas" alcohol free!? I have a friend who can get it for me- but the price is steep per gallon!
Increasing numbers of fire departments are going to prepackaged "Trufuel" for saws and portable Jaws of life pumps. I think its about $5.00 per quart! Obviously an expense they're willing to pay because E85 is a problem!
Question- I'm near the ocean and there are marinas in my area. Is marine gasoline universally alcohol free? How does the price compare to to road fuel and aviation gasoline?
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Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
But is ethanol gas so much troublesome than 100% gasoline? I've been dealing with this sort of stuff since the late 60s and I'm not seeing much new. Rubber parts deteriorated, gas turned corrosive and carbs gummed up back in the good old days, too.
Don't know why but my first guess is that FAA approval requirements are expensive and refiners don't bother because they won't make any more profit on E-10 aviation gas than on the gas they currently sell.
nbpt100
Well-known member
Water....ethanol is hydroscopic and can pull in water from humid air. That is mostly why it is a problem in carbs. The fact that ethanlol can degrade some rubbers is a separate but still real problem.
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Actually its $8/qt individually. Cheaper if you buy in bulk. Fire departments use it because its pre-treated with stabilizer, premixed (2-stroke), and has a long shelf life. It removes liability from them when it comes to purchasing, storing, and mixing fuel. The fact that its ethanol free has little to do with it. If you're trying to run E85 in your small engines that would be a huge problem, E10 isn't though.
Point of correction, R6 and R7 are very resistant to gasoline up to E25. In a carbureted application, R9 is a better choice only if you happen to be running E85 or pure methanol. Every small engine manufacturer OE fuel line on a carbureted engine I've ever seen in R6 or R7 rated. Fuel line problems pretty much don't exist and haven't for years (except on Chinese COO motors).
For 2-stroke you want tygon. Make sure its real tygon too and not a knock-off.
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nbpt100
Well-known member
You would think they would know how to safely and correctly mix, and store 2 cycle fuel better than anyone. After all they are Fire and safety specialist.
I believe you that it may be their stated rational, but it seems a bit absurd. There may be other good reasons for using it if the cost is reasonable but that rational seems weak. Maybe A law firm trying to justify their big retainer fee is advising them...... or their insurance company is making it economically sensible for them.
The longer shelf life may not be entirely related to the fact that it is ethanol free. However, I am sure it is a factor.
At HD and elsewhere Truefuel is about $5 quart if you buy 6 at a time. You can even buy it by the gallon for a similar cost savings. That pricing is just for any consumer. I would think a Municipality would get even a better deal.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
Thanks to the corn lobby, Illinois ethanol fuels have been tax subsidized since the the late 70s. Since the early 80s, most fuel, at least in the Chicago area, has been E-10. People with carbureted cars managed OK. Not to mention all the lawnmowers and snowblowers. This isn't only my experience, but the experience of literally millions of people over dozens of years. Not everyone, but most everyone.
And, if anyone cares, I hate the ethanol fuel subsidy. It's bad economics, bad environmentalism and it must leave at least a million potholes unfilled.
In my experience, that's were the real ethanol fuel problems were. Leaky fuel pumps, soggy plastifoam floats and leaky accelerator pump diaphragms on Fords and Holleys. No new problems there, but people said ethanol accelerated aging in rubbers and plastics and I believe it.
Briggs changed the part number on the carb diaphragm I replaced a few years ago. It looked identical to the old diaphragm, so I suppose Briggs upgraded the rubber.
rustbucket5
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im in canada and its a huge problem with small engines not starting because of them being stored with fuel all winter. its not that ethanol "gums" it up, thats not the big deal regular gas does that too. ethanol will cause corrosion inside the jets and passage ways that you CANT get out. seen many carbs with green corrosion on the inside that were just pooched, no amount of cleaning would fix them. we only have E-10 up here so i dont know what E-85 would do
~$5.80 in the 6-pack and I doubt they're making tons of profit on it. Probably a buck or two a can. If memory serves you can get it down to $2.50/qt for 5-gal/55gal quantities but you often need to buy quite a bit and that generally doesn't include freight. That's also wholesale of course.
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I get mine (VP Racing C9) from a local auto racing supply shop for $57 per 5ga. No shipping charges to me. Like I posted earlier, $2.85/qt. Its the same price wether I buy 5ga, or 50ga.... Actually, the 54ga drums are a bit more expensive (per gallon) than the 5ga pails...
https://vpracingfuels.com/product/c9/
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bushmechanic
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Regarding Seafoam and ethanol:
There is more than one kind of alcohol out there; not just ethanol, and each behaves in a drastically different manner depending upon use.
Seafoam contains isopropanol.
Ethanol is not easily tolerated by many smaller engines; especially two-cycle engines and tiny four-cycles. I could write entire essays on the subject of why this is the case, but I don't feel like it and people don't correct their behavior once educated anyway.
Much of what people believe regarding ethanol is flat out wrong, regardless of their level of experience and expertise. It's ****, in the end. It was a bad idea, it still is a bad idea, and it will remain a bad idea throughout the foreseeable future.
There is more than one kind of alcohol out there; not just ethanol, and each behaves in a drastically different manner depending upon use.
Seafoam contains isopropanol.
Ethanol is not easily tolerated by many smaller engines; especially two-cycle engines and tiny four-cycles. I could write entire essays on the subject of why this is the case, but I don't feel like it and people don't correct their behavior once educated anyway.
Much of what people believe regarding ethanol is flat out wrong, regardless of their level of experience and expertise. It's ****, in the end. It was a bad idea, it still is a bad idea, and it will remain a bad idea throughout the foreseeable future.
Kind of feel obligated to follow up a couple of points-
When I said I've seen some FD'S using TrueFuel, it's not mine, but a number I've taken notice of doing it. I would think it was born of prior issues they had with difficulty starting saws at the worst possible time (Murphys law). Not to stir the pot, but if you think fire companies are taking legal direction on mundane items like the fuel that goes into a portable saw - think again.
As far as cost- municipalities & emergency services do not routinely get any breaks. I can tell you that municipalities, counties etc have such poor payment policies (slow), it wouldn't be too far out of bounds to say they pay full boat & then some.
The fact that it is available as a 2 - stroke premix is a huge selling point & removes one more opportunity for error down at the fire station.
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When I said I've seen some FD'S using TrueFuel, it's not mine, but a number I've taken notice of doing it. I would think it was born of prior issues they had with difficulty starting saws at the worst possible time (Murphys law). Not to stir the pot, but if you think fire companies are taking legal direction on mundane items like the fuel that goes into a portable saw - think again.
As far as cost- municipalities & emergency services do not routinely get any breaks. I can tell you that municipalities, counties etc have such poor payment policies (slow), it wouldn't be too far out of bounds to say they pay full boat & then some.
The fact that it is available as a 2 - stroke premix is a huge selling point & removes one more opportunity for error down at the fire station.
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nbpt100
Well-known member
And said:
If you're asserting that more energy is used in manufacturing than created do about 60 seconds of actual research and you'll find that's completely false.
bushmechanic
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If you do "about 60 seconds of research", you'll find that the Earth is flat:
https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/
Googling isn't research; especially not in relation to ethanol's drawbacks.
Research in this arena requires extensive familiarity with the industry, contacts, a background in various sciences, and continuing education in environmental issues. I maintain that experience in a number of nations.
Doesn't matter, though, because people don't want the truth. They want an easy way out.
Don't link 67 pages supporting your position, as I'm not going to read them. It's also too late to convince me you're familiar with the subject matter in this regard, given the "60 second research" suggestion.
That battle was lost in a popularity contest years ago, and I'm not going to pick up any dropped gauntlets only to be "emotioned" out of play again along with everyone else who actually proposed genuinely elegant, sensible, and environmentally friendly road plans.
No sense arguing over spilled milk at this point. It's done with, we're stuck with it, and we have better things to do. Let's stop talking about that aspect of ethanol before people get out of hand, and just stick to winterizing small engines.
But...but...but...it's on the internet so it must be true...