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Smaller water heater??

Burl

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I'm planning on using a gas hot water heater for my 1000' of 1/2" pex tubing in my garage floor slab, 30' X 28' X 6". The norm seems to be a 30 or 40 gallon tank, but why not use a smaller one, something that will use less energy but still do the job, such as a 20 or 25 gallon one. I figure around 7 gallons will be in the tubing, the fluid will lose about 10 deg. in the round-trip, why will I need 3 times as much in the tank? Anybody have any input? Thanks.
 
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Charles (in GA)

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The info I found HERE says that 1/2 PEX for floor heating has a capacity of about .0092 gal per foot, so that translates to 9.2 gals for 1000 ft.

You need to look at the gals per hour of turnover, and the specs for temp rise/gals for the heater you are considering. I would think you would want more than the bare minimum, but how much more is anybody's guess.

Charles
 

rickairmedic

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I might just add here to go out and price them I am quite sure you will find the differance in cost between a 25 gallon tank and a 50 gallon tank to not be much thereby making the 50 gallon tank a better deal. We quite often tell peaple if they have the room to go with a 50 gallon heater due to the fact its the same price as a 40 gallon.


Rick
 

JebNY

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Lost State of Franklin
Other than cost, you might want to look into a tankless hot water heater. That is what a friend is using for his under slab shop heat.

I use a 40gal to heat our house with. You need to look into how man BTUs the heater is capable of and how much you need.

Jeb
 

GSSFC

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Wolfeboro, NH
I currently have a 40 gallon propane water heater that runs the radiant system in my shop. I too would like to upgrade to a tankless as I think the damn thing hardly runs, yet I have to pay to constantly keep the water warm in the tank. I keep the shop at 50* in the winter and that is fine for most of the grunt work I do in there. When I am going to sit at the bench for a while I run the hot dawg for a little bit to warm the air space up.

Tim
 
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Burl

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I really don't want to do a demand type of heater, and the initial cost of the tank type is not an issue. I like the idea of the tank, I just don't want to heat more fluid than necessary. As for gallons per hour of turnover and specs for temp rise/gals, these are probably good factors to consider and are well-needed, but typical water heaters (tank-type) don't come with specs like these. So I guess its just a crapshoot, unless someone at a place like Radiantec can be helpful, but the experiences I have had with those types is that they can be as much a salesman as a help with information.
 

JCByrd24

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Burl,

A tank type water heater is kind of like an air compressor, a tank just makes up for not enough capacity, which only works for intermitent use. The thing about heating a garage, you don't need any tank at all really, because it's not an intermitent service, you just need one that can provide the right output. You can run a DA sander full blast constantly with a big enough compressor and no tank, but without a big enough capacity no tank will buy you endless run time.

To heat water for a house you basically need to know how much water you need for the morning of showers. Depending on how many people in your house it is easy to figure out (or read the label on the heater). This is an intermitent use and your heater runs at lower output (amp draw) during the day to reheat the water.

For heating a garage you need to know how many BTU/hr your garage loses and how much your heater will heat, because in a cold week, no size tank will make up for the lack of capacity in the heater. You can find online calculators to do this close enough. Figuring out the output of your heater is a little trickier if it doesn't give BTU output, but can be backed out from the fuel usage (with efficiency of heater) or recovery time. Either way, I'm not sure the actual output varies with tank size, so you can probably get away with a smaller tank, but really, tankless is they way to go in this application.
 
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Burl

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Burl,

A tank type water heater is kind of like an air compressor, a tank just makes up for not enough capacity, which only works for intermitent use. The thing about heating a garage, you don't need any tank at all really, because it's not an intermitent service, you just need one that can provide the right output. You can run a DA sander full blast constantly with a big enough compressor and no tank, but without a big enough capacity no tank will buy you endless run time.

To heat water for a house you basically need to know how much water you need for the morning of showers. Depending on how many people in your house it is easy to figure out (or read the label on the heater). This is an intermitent use and your heater runs at lower output (amp draw) during the day to reheat the water.

For heating a garage you need to know how many BTU/hr your garage loses and how much your heater will heat, because in a cold week, no size tank will make up for the lack of capacity in the heater. You can find online calculators to do this close enough. Figuring out the output of your heater is a little trickier if it doesn't give BTU output, but can be backed out from the fuel usage (with efficiency of heater) or recovery time. Either way, I'm not sure the actual output varies with tank size, so you can probably get away with a smaller tank, but really, tankless is they way to go in this application.

JC, you must be an engineer, because I've read this post at least 4 times and you are losing me at the bakery!
 

JCByrd24

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Burl, sorry I wasn't clear and have taken so long to respond...and yes I'm an engineer.

The answer to your question is yes, you can go with a smaller tank, or no tank at all because heating a garage doesn't need a tank, here is why.

Unlike heating water for a shower, say 20 gallons at a time, your garage (when it's cold out) is always losing heat at some rate based on the size, outside to inside temperature differential, and insulation. You need to size your heaters output (BTU) to replenish the amount of loss. Again you can find an online calculator to do this for your building and design inside and outside temperatures, i.e. do you want to be able to heat to 50,60,70 degrees inside when it is 20,10,0 degrees outside.

That being said, most water heaters for domestic hot water do not have enough output to heat a garage. There are two reasons for this. First, simply because heating domestic hot water in general requires much less energy than space heating. Second, because it is an intermitent service. 20-80 gallons in the morning, maybe 30 in the evening and thats it. Well then you have the losses from all of that water sitting there warm all day...Intermitent use actually allows the output of actual heating element to be reduced, or undersized, because energy can be built up all day and night when no loss is happening and stored in the tank. This is evident if you have one too many people take showers on an electric hot water heater. Once you run out of stored hot water, the elements cannot create hot water at the rate its being used.

Basically, the tank makes up for lack of output, but again this only works for intermitent use. Since your garage is not intermitent, you need to size the actual output to match your heat loss. Once you do that, the tank is not necessary.
 

sberry

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I think a bigger tank is good, will even out the demand a bit more and any heat lost will eventually make its way into the garage. Keeping the water hot is kind of minimal and a moot point.
 

JCByrd24

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You are right that the minimal heat loss will just heat the garage so no harm there, but for someone wanting to get a smaller tank due to space or whatever, they need to realize that it's not the tank size that equals whether or not it will work in a garage. An 80 gallon tank with 1 4500W (talking electric) element won't due any better than a 40 gallon (or tankless) heater with a 4500W element for heating a garage. I'm just trying to point out that you CAN'T just blanketly say a water heater will work for heating a garage and a bigger tank will mean more heat.
 

carguykeith

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Alaska
Agreed the tank size itself doesn't matter, but most hot water heaters I'm aware of relate the tank size to the burner size. I'm heating my 26x30 with 10' walls and vaulted ceilings with a 50kbtu direct vent hot water heater which is WAY oversized and that's in Alaska... Assuming you've insulated appropriately you should only need about 30kbtu input water heater for a 60 degree temperature rise.

HERE is a descent heat loss calculator like JC mentioned. The only tricky part is the floor value, if you used 2" blue-board (which you should have) use "2" if not use the highest number available and smack yourself in the forehead.

I went bigger so I would have plenty of hot water for the utility sink, hopefully a parts washer (or at least a hopped up dish washer) and for washing cars in the summer, also it was the smallest direct vent I could find.

Last thing, how on earth did you use 1000' of PEX on a 26x30 slab? I used less than 600' going with (2) circuits at 18" on center and an extra loop in front of the garage door. Though he is long winded at times and some of the information is out of date THIS SITE overall has lots of good information on radiant heat design.
 
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