Smart Meters

[Old Bill]

Anybody have them? Any comments? Big problem here in British Columbia. Hydro is trying to force them on everyone and those who won't/insist on keepin the analog meters will be charged an opt-out fee of $35 per month. There is a class action lawsuit now pending.

 

[walrus]

Anybody have them? Any comments? Big problem here in British Columbia. Hydro is trying to force them on everyone and those who won't/insist on keepin the analog meters will be charged an opt-out fee of $35 per month. There is a class action lawsuit now pending.

Same in Maine, you have to pay extra not to have one

 

[1/2 Cup]

We have them here, mine has been in for 12 months now.
We have no option to opt out at all.
I do not have any issues with it, other than the additional service charges.

 

[awdblazer]

have had for i dont know how many years
whats the problems with them??

 

[kd3pc]

too much control of the power I PAY for, by the power company. Why should they get to decide when I want to do my laundry, heat or cool, or shower or bathe.

In VA they were voluntary for a while, and they paid you a pittance to use them, but they browned out and failed to reduce power usage. The only thing they are using now is the remote meter reading.

In TN, not sure where they stand. I hope they stay away, again too much control, unless they are going to pay for my electric bill

 

[Iggi]

We have been fighting them here in san antonio for years. My brother in south texas had theirs replaced without notice. They broke a padlock on a side gate to get in and replaced it. His bill has gone up 15% month after month since they installed the new meter. The whole town is up in arms but nothing so far.

 

[CNGsaves]

Research the ******* match in TX over these !!

Guns drawn, the whole deal.

What pisses me off is every rate increase is pushed Majority on homeowners or small business, but NOT big business.

You will NEVER see any forced conservation on big business, yet they get the cheapest per Kw rate . . . . WTH with that ???

 

[FMC]

its a new meter so what? it sends reports a couple of times a day and gives you cancer for free ( so ban cell phones and radio towers and hydro lines ) the true "crimes" here are.
They are made in the USA for Canada (we have no electronic companies?) they spent a **** load of money for a devise that is 10 yrs behind in technology (its supposedly smart but there is no potential for any savings for off peak consumption, some countries have smart devises like clothes dryers that get a signal to start at low cost times (we have a tier system with the first x amount of kw's reduced)
The only value for hydro here is stopping illegal grow ops and everybody in BC has a secret garden (we need one to pay the hydro rates).(they are about to go wayyyy up again)
Oh, the latest excuse for the raise is " we pay less" than almost all the other provinces, its called BC Hydro because the taxpayers paid for their own power service not knowing it would bite them in the ***, excuse my rant Im pissed because Im not allowed to build a reactor in city limits

 

[rsanter]

We have them and I have no problems with them.
Lots of people complain that they let the power company know what you are doing when you do it....like the power company gives a rip about anything other than how much electricity you are using so they can charge you

Bob

 

[kd3pc]

We have them and I have no problems with them.
Lots of people complain that they let the power company know what you are doing when you do it....like the power company gives a rip about anything other than how much electricity you are using so they can charge you

Bob

they are using them in CA to decide where to "rolling blackout" next...or brown out,

you might think differently when this affects your home, especially if you are a work at home person in an area of commuter workers...In VA they did try and give you a half cent reduction per KWH, if you ran your wash/dry at midnight or some such.

My concern is that much of my stuff is really sensitive to brown out, and the power companies could care less about fixing your stuff, if damage.

CA leads the way for the rest of the US,

 

[paranoid56]

too much control of the power I PAY for, by the power company. Why should they get to decide when I want to do my laundry, heat or cool, or shower or bathe.

In VA they were voluntary for a while, and they paid you a pittance to use them, but they browned out and failed to reduce power usage. The only thing they are using now is the remote meter reading.

In TN, not sure where they stand. I hope they stay away, again too much control, unless they are going to pay for my electric bill

um what? I have had them for years and never had anybody tell me when i can and cant do laundry. I think you need to remove the tin foil hat

they are using them in CA to decide where to "rolling blackout" next...or brown out,

you might think differently when this affects your home, especially if you are a work at home person in an area of commuter workers...In VA they did try and give you a half cent reduction per KWH, if you ran your wash/dry at midnight or some such.

My concern is that much of my stuff is really sensitive to brown out, and the power companies could care less about fixing your stuff, if damage.

CA leads the way for the rest of the US,

are you saying CA as in california? if so, i know they talk of rolling black outs however i have never seen one in 15+ years. the last power outage we have had was due to some **** in AZ that cut power to all of Sothern California. that was a fun 8hrs. Never seen so many people freak out
if you have any consernces about your compuers you would allready be using a ups incase of any black not just rolling ones. I have one just in case anything happens. also have one on my att uvers modem so i can still have internet when the power goes off (laptop)

now, i do like them as i can remotly monitor how much power i am using at any given time. i can see when i have peaks and lows. that part for me is well worth it (and yes i know you can buy stand alone systems that do this but why not tap into the smart one for free )

 

[CNGsaves]

Yes, whole purpose of Smart Meters is for PoCo to "manage" peak power demand, so during hottest days when air conditioners are putting strains on PoCo's ability to keep up, they do rolling blackouts to take down your residential power, but obviously they do NOT take down any business power.

Older house I bought has a "free" thermostat that PoCo provided to previous owner as trade-off that PoCo can turn off air conditioning if peak demand is cutting PoCo thin on ability to keep everything going. I have not observed it taking down my A/C yet, but no way of knowing unless I was home that day and noticed that A/C was not running.

Smart Meter = = = PoCo strong-arm tactics to manage RESIDENTIAL peak demand

For PoCo's defense, they "may" be taking next logical step in attempt to QUANTIFY when and where peak electric demands originate.

In infancy of Smart Meters though, it comes across to residential users that PoCo is using them as "pawn" to trim off peak demand, rather than PoCo doing it's own overall grid power demand management.

 

[Highbeam]

It's their utility, it is their meter. You don't like it then get your own power.

 

[rsanter]

Don't know about the rest of the country...but in CA the reasons for the smart meter are as follows....
Reduce labor, they do not need a person to read them...

Reduce labor, they do not need someone to go out and turn power on or off....

Provide on demand energy use information to the customer do they can better manage their energy use

And the big one isnthey are going to move residential rates to time of use rates so if you are using power in the middle of the day in the summer....you will pay more per unit of energy

And by the way....this was not the power companies decision, the CPUC ( government) has decided this stuff and told the power companies to go in that direction

Bob

 

[Falcon67]

It's their utility, it is their meter. You don't like it then get your own power.

That. Have one here and like it. I can see what we draw by the hour if I like. And if something happens in the neighborhood a co-op truck shows up shortly because they get alerted to the outage. This tin foil hat somebody gonna call and tell me to unhook the water heater is ****. Oh and its got a digital readout so the Luddite s can track their use with pencil and paper.

 

[madosta]

This is another pet peeve of mine... overhead wires...

The PoCo is one vendor in an area. The infrastructure was put up years ago and no innovation has come of it. They are no better than the Ma Bells of today. **** will never change because humans are lazy.

Too bad taxes don't go to municipal maintained utilities with multiple competing providers. Imagine that day...

I'm getting one soon... who cares, it's the large scale that we should be bitching about.

 

[Falcon67]

Yes, whole purpose of Smart Meters is for PoCo to "manage" peak power demand, so during hottest days when air conditioners are putting strains on PoCo's ability to keep up, they do rolling blackouts to take down your residential power, but obviously they do NOT take down any business power

Smart Meter = = = PoCo strong-arm tactics to manage RESIDENTIAL peak demand

For PoCo's defense, they "may" be taking next logical step in attempt to QUANTIFY when and where peak electric demands originate.

In infancy of Smart Meters though, it comes across to residential users that PoCo is using them as "pawn" to trim off peak demand, rather than PoCo doing it's own overall grid power demand management.

During the record heat and drought of last summer, the grid experienced record demand. ERCOT had to declare emergencies seven times and shut power down to interruptible customers twice to avoid widespread rolling outages. (Interruptible customers are large-scale industrial clients that take discounts on energy rates in exchange for volunteering to lose power first when the grid is stressed.)

 

[9C1]

I have had a "smart meter" for threel years. My town is part of an experimental program regarding the use of them. The PoCo is only now beginning to instal automated meters in the rest of the service territory.

Rsanter has it right regarding their purpose. The main use is to reduce the labor of reading the meter. The charge to opt out of the program is intended to cover the cost of manually reading your analog meter.

My utility has not yet implemented the power outage notification feature, but I am sure it will eventually. That will provide a decided advantage to utility dispatchers in being able to determine the extent of an outage. Knowing the extent is crucial in determining the cause; and depending on the customer to call in for a power outage is uncertain. No one home - no call.

If you are operating a grow house, and haven't bypassed the meter, you are at no more risk of disclosure than you were with an analog meter. The police can subpena the power company records in either case.

As to the overhead wires being antiquated and not updated in years -- Google "distribution automation."
Terry

 

[ddawg16]

I've had mine for about 3 years now. I like it because I can look at my usage during the day and night. Only need a web browser.

Now if the person with the meter had some brains, they would use the data to help manage their power usage. But then again, when you have people still using incandescent bulbs because they 'think' they don't like CFL or led lights.....well, there is only so much you can do to help. How does it go? "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink it"

BTW....my electric bill did not go up. I average $40-45/month

 

[79firebird]

Hate the new meters mine and every one i knows bill has gone up and nothing has changed. They charge more on peak time and put the smart ones in to save money as they dont need people to go read them. And now there upping hydro over the next fue years. Rates have gone up every fue years. Also had to get the cable co to replace my fuse panle as well as wireing going to it after a dective meter melted it. My mechanic buddy had that happen also there are lots of reports of bad meters.

 

[allinon72]

Rest assured these will, eventually, be used to control how much power YOU use, first voluntarily, then by force.

 

[nehog]

This is another pet peeve of mine... overhead wires...

The PoCo is one vendor in an area. The infrastructure was put up years ago and no innovation has come of it. They are no better than the Ma Bells of today. **** will never change because humans are lazy.
...

It is not that humans are lazy, it is a matter of paying for the changes you want. Everyone paying, not just you. A lot of paying, not a trivial amount. The cost to rebuild a working infrastructure is incredibly high, for what amounts to a cosmetic change? Not lazy, just not wasteful!

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Mechanical meters get slow as they age. Some eventually seize up totally. People have always complained when they got a new meter that their bills went up. Of course they did, the old meter was slow and not recording properly. The power company was not getting the money they should have. Suddenly you have to start paying on what you REALLY are using, rather than what an old slow meter says you are, and you get upset?

Smart meters can be had with disconnect relays in them, but they are expensive. I think most power companies are using those only in areas where that type of meter is an advantage, such as apartment complexes or areas where they see a lot of disconnect/reconnects that justify actual disconnection of the power.

Georgia Power, that I know of, only bought the regular smart meter, which does not have the disconnect in it. I had the meter on the shop seize up and they put in a smart meter before the big change over. I didn't see any significant change from readings months earlier when the old meter was apparently operating properly (it was only about 10 years old when it froze up).

The only increase I've seen was in my rates. The government has mandated that the POCO's use a certain percentage of "green" power, so GA Power is having to encourage small independent power producers to set up solar farms, power plants that burn pine slash and tire chips and other unusual power sources. It costs money and GA power has to pay, so you do.

Charles

 

[Highbeam]

Seems there is a misunderstanding. The smart meter does not cost you more money. The smart meter is a meter to measure your use plus some other data collection and switching abilities. You are only paying for what you are using. With the smart meter your power company may also elect to start changing the way you are billed for power. They could charge you more or less for use at different times of the day for example.

The power company could always shut off your power and your neighborhood's power. This is not new. Plenty of switches to shut off power without messing with the meter on your house.

I don't see the downside or any new problems created by the smart meters. You may not like time of day metering but that was a business decision made by your utility and I would actually welcome that change.

 

[lotsoftools]

We've had one for about a year now and our costs have not increased a penny. I like it because they don't have to come out to read the meter anymore = less outsiders on my property.

 

[Thumper68]

I kinda like them as well, I have one on the house, the lake cabin and the shop. The one on the shop allows me to have dual fuel (even if I only use the elec) so I get a lower rate on the shop heat.

The one on the house is nice because I can monitor useage and yell at the kids more

 

[Outlander]

I assure you, nobody tells Mrs. Outlander when to do laundry.

 

[CNGsaves]

^ ^ ^ Maybe not laundry, but most definitely PoCo wants decision-making ability IF they give you power for Air Conditioning during peak hours !!
The Mrs Outlander may be doing laundry in a hot house.

My "smart thermostat" is the first step in the door, as I expect future will bring "smart" breakers that go on the A/C circuit so that PoCo can wirelessly shut down your A/C during peak demand, if they want to.

Main GIANT complaint I have is fact that PoCo is monopoly, or realistically an oligopoly (ie NO competitors), and most PUC's (public utility commission) have become rubber stamp for whatever rate increase PoCo's want. Around here, PoCo can earn certain Rate Of Return so all these 50 to 100 years, they have been putting dividends in pockets of shareholders, but yet PoCo hasn't done it's own grid upgrading, alternate power sources, etc. (ie wind or solar power) unless forced by PUC/Federal Govmt (then of course PoCo wants more ratepayer money for that).

For priviledge of having an oligopoly over customers across a state, the PoCo darn well SHOULD be handling peak demand (VAST Majority being big business) so booster generation plants need managed to stay within working peak limits / or conservation by businesses. Constantly pounding rate increases on little residential guy just pisses me off !! Plus, bunch of state rules allow PoCo to NOT pay you (or neglible amount) when windpower turns the meter backwards.

 

[Perrorojo]

They can tell what appliances you have running. Say you have a basement full of UV lights for growing things, they'll be able to tell. Say you shut your lights off when you go to work, they'll know you aren't home. etc.. Most of the people around here are fighting them.

 

[lotsoftools]

^ ^ ^ Maybe not laundry, but most definitely PoCo wants decision-making ability IF they give you power for Air Conditioning during peak hours !!
The Mrs Outlander may be doing laundry in a hot house.

My "smart thermostat" is the first step in the door, as I expect future will bring "smart" breakers that go on the A/C circuit so that PoCo can wirelessly shut down your A/C during peak demand, if they want to.

Main GIANT complaint I have is fact that PoCo is monopoly, or realistically an oligopoly (ie NO competitors), and most PUC's (public utility commission) have become rubber stamp for whatever rate increase PoCo's want. Around here, PoCo can earn certain Rate Of Return so all these 50 to 100 years, they have been putting dividends in pockets of shareholders, but yet PoCo hasn't done it's own grid upgrading, alternate power sources, etc. (ie wind or solar power) unless forced by PUC/Federal Govmt (then of course PoCo wants more ratepayer money for that).

For priviledge of having an oligopoly over customers across a state, the PoCo darn well SHOULD be handling peak demand (VAST Majority being big business) so booster generation plants need managed to stay within working peak limits / or conservation by businesses. Constantly pounding rate increases on little residential guy just pisses me off !! Plus, bunch of state rules allow PoCo to NOT pay you (or neglible amount) when windpower turns the meter backwards.

Monopoly? I have 5 choices of power companies here. Is that not the case elsewhere?

 

[Stuart in MN]

Monopoly? I have 5 choices of power companies here. Is that not the case elsewhere?

Actually, no - in most parts of the US, each power company has a specific territory they serve.

 

[nehog]

They can tell what appliances you have running. Say you have a basement full of UV lights for growing things, they'll be able to tell. Say you shut your lights off when you go to work, they'll know you aren't home. etc.. Most of the people around here are fighting them.

No they won't. No they can't. UV lights draw the same type of power the same way any other appliance does. As to shutting off your lights and going to work? You are kidding, right? How would they know that from usage?

My suggestion to those who don't want/like the new meters: go off-grid and generate your own power.

 

[tdkkart]

They can tell what appliances you have running. Say you have a basement full of UV lights for growing things, they'll be able to tell. Say you shut your lights off when you go to work, they'll know you aren't home. etc.. Most of the people around here are fighting them.

I'm laughing my *** off here, and wondering if the level of paranoia in the general population is as high as it is here.

"Your lights are off while you're at work, they'll know you aren't home."
Gee really?? Think about it man, during the hours of 7am till 6pm, probably 70% of the homes in the United States are empty, all you gotta do is knock on the door and you'll have your answer.
Guess what, at 2am probably 90% of the homes are occupied, and I see houses all the times with grow lights glowing in the windows.

The same person that's sure they're being watched is also buying everything on a credit card that gives 1% back, or using a debit card to buy everything, and the UPS truck comes to his house every day.
I see what you're doing........

Our local utility has a feature on their website that's supposed to be for people who are shopping for rentals or looking to buy a house. You can type in any address and see the utility useage for that address. I can see my daughter's monthly electric useage and she lives 70 miles away. My parents are on the same power company, I can see their useage and they live 165mi from me.
People use WAY too much electricity. Most of houses I've looked at have electric and gas bills that are double what mine is.
Some people NEED to be controlled and watched after.


Yes, they're watching you. They know what you buy, they know what you eat, they know how much gas you use. They know when you are home, when you are gone and where you go. Even if you don't use any of the things that allow them to blatantly watch you, some basic observation will tell you alot about most people.

Wanna watch me?? Go right ahead, I could care less if they put cameras in my windows, but they'd better be prepared to be bored to death........

 

[dowmace]

I'm laughing my *** off here, and wondering if the level of paranoia in the general population is as high as it is here.

"Your lights are off while you're at work, they'll know you aren't home."
Gee really?? Think about it man, during the hours of 7am till 6pm, probably 70% of the homes in the United States are empty, all you gotta do is knock on the door and you'll have your answer.
Guess what, at 2am probably 90% of the homes are occupied, and I see houses all the times with grow lights glowing in the windows.

The same person that's sure they're being watched is also buying everything on a credit card that gives 1% back, or using a debit card to buy everything, and the UPS truck comes to his house every day.
I see what you're doing........

Our local utility has a feature on their website that's supposed to be for people who are shopping for rentals or looking to buy a house. You can type in any address and see the utility useage for that address. I can see my daughter's monthly electric useage and she lives 70 miles away. My parents are on the same power company, I can see their useage and they live 165mi from me.
People use WAY too much electricity. Most of houses I've looked at have electric and gas bills that are double what mine is.
Some people NEED to be controlled and watched after.


Yes, they're watching you. They know what you buy, they know what you eat, they know how much gas you use. They know when you are home, when you are gone and where you go. Even if you don't use any of the things that allow them to blatantly watch you, some basic observation will tell you alot about most people.

Wanna watch me?? Go right ahead, I could care less if they put cameras in my windows, but they'd better be prepared to be bored to death........

Just because you don't care if they watch you doesn't mean I want them watching me. I don't have anything to hide but that doesn't mean I should walk around naked either.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

 

[9C1]

Just because you don't care if they watch you doesn't mean I want them watching me. I don't have anything to hide but that doesn't mean I should walk around naked either.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

And your SPH-L900 won't reveal where you are every moment you are carrying it?

Yes you can hide, but you have to work very hard at it and forgo credit/debit card, mobile phones, GPS devices and any portable computer. And if you buy anything on the Internet with your desktop they will know your buying habits. Use a "rewards card" of any kind? Oh, and don't apply for credit or a loan either.

Good luck.

Terry

 

[tdkkart]

And your SPH-L900 won't reveal where you are every moment you are carrying it?

"I ain't gonna let 'em watch me by Gawd"

 

[info2x]

Have two smart meters on my house. One for the AC system and the other for the rest of the house. I haven't had any complaints with it. I like being able to look at my power use and how it changes throughout the day.

 

[Speedy Petey]

WOW!! I agree with tdkkart. The level of paranoia and misinformation here is staggering. Looks like most of you get your information from conspiracy sites and not factual sites.

Smart meters themselves CANNOT control the load in your home. Not individually or the whole service. They CANNOT "brown you out" either. Please think about the physical implications of this. Do you REALLY think a small extremely light weight plastic meter has the capability to control or dim a 200A service???

Also, they CANNOT tell what you are using. That again is simply absurd. They can tell things like demand, peak and overall usage profiles, but WTF cares about that?

They definitely can control certain items in your home, like central A/C....when connected to a relay system controlled via radio signal. Once again, this has been done for YEARS. My own mother's A/C in her condo has had a radio control on it for many years, and it had nothing to do with smart meters.

 

[Old Bill]

Lots of interesting comments. I am not paranoid but will tell you that my neighbour has one that faces the headboard in my bedroom. For the last month I awake at exactly 3 am. I read that in Arizona - be it Phoenix or elsewhere - people have been woken up at 4am. I switched bedrooms with my wife who sleeps like a log and did not say a thing about the time. She awoke at 3 am each night she was there while I slept right through.
As to the meters being installed in BC I understand they are made in China and not yet CSA approved. I cannot confirm that. We have had several house fires starting at the meter but Hydro says the house wiring was defective and claim no responsibility. And now we will be having "time of day" billing which added to our 26% hydro increase over 5 years will only add more money to the utility. And yes they can determine what appliances are being used. LG "Smart TVs" also monitor which programs you watch and send feedback to advertisers. Just like they can tell when there is a power outage. But will repair crews get here any faster? As to reading a meter why bother sending anyone? Read it yourself. A friend has his meter in his garage and Hydro left a post paid card for him to fill in when they could not get access. Incidentally the gas meter reader gets 40 cents per meter.
My sons live in Ontario and both have seen a major spike in their hydro bills since installation of these meters. The Smart Meter opponents in BC number about 66,000. With BC Hydro charging a $35 per month opt-out fee it will generate about $2.1 million per month for doing nothing. The province of Quebec had a $17 per month opt-out fee but now with pressure from the government (isn't that a change?) are trying to get it down to a token $1 per year. Finally there are a few countries in Europe which have banned them along with many cities in Canada. BTW I do not have a cell phone nor a wireless router. And if I could go off-grid I would. Maybe I am a Luddite, but a proud one!

 

[Teken]

they are using them in CA to decide where to "rolling blackout" next...or brown out,

you might think differently when this affects your home, especially if you are a work at home person in an area of commuter workers...In VA they did try and give you a half cent reduction per KWH, if you ran your wash/dry at midnight or some such.

My concern is that much of my stuff is really sensitive to brown out, and the power companies could care less about fixing your stuff, if damage.

CA leads the way for the rest of the US,

Rest assured these will, eventually, be used to control how much power YOU use, first voluntarily, then by force.

^ ^ ^ Maybe not laundry, but most definitely PoCo wants decision-making ability IF they give you power for Air Conditioning during peak hours !!
The Mrs Outlander may be doing laundry in a hot house.

My "smart thermostat" is the first step in the door, as I expect future will bring "smart" breakers that go on the A/C circuit so that PoCo can wirelessly shut down your A/C during peak demand, if they want to.

Main GIANT complaint I have is fact that PoCo is monopoly, or realistically an oligopoly (ie NO competitors), and most PUC's (public utility commission) have become rubber stamp for whatever rate increase PoCo's want. Around here, PoCo can earn certain Rate Of Return so all these 50 to 100 years, they have been putting dividends in pockets of shareholders, but yet PoCo hasn't done it's own grid upgrading, alternate power sources, etc. (ie wind or solar power) unless forced by PUC/Federal Govmt (then of course PoCo wants more ratepayer money for that).

For priviledge of having an oligopoly over customers across a state, the PoCo darn well SHOULD be handling peak demand (VAST Majority being big business) so booster generation plants need managed to stay within working peak limits / or conservation by businesses. Constantly pounding rate increases on little residential guy just pisses me off !! Plus, bunch of state rules allow PoCo to NOT pay you (or neglible amount) when windpower turns the meter backwards.

I pretty much agree with the comments above.

WOW!! I agree with tdkkart. The level of paranoia and misinformation here is staggering. Looks like most of you get your information from conspiracy sites and not factual sites.

Smart meters themselves CANNOT control the load in your home. Not individually or the whole service. They CANNOT "brown you out" either. Please think about the physical implications of this. Do you REALLY think a small extremely light weight plastic meter has the capability to control or dim a 200A service???

Also, they CANNOT tell what you are using. That again is simply absurd. They can tell things like demand, peak and overall usage profiles, but WTF cares about that?

They definitely can control certain items in your home, like central A/C....when connected to a relay system controlled via radio signal. Once again, this has been done for YEARS. My own mother's A/C in her condo has had a radio control on it for many years, and it had nothing to do with smart meters.

Please see reference to SEP 1.1 & Open ADR. There are several POCO's using this to automate and control the load in a persons home.

It goes with out saying the owner has buy in to this program as they are offered incentives for doing so. In the long run the Smart Meter will have the ability to control and monitor the persons usage and load(s).

I know because its being done in my home now. The only difference, is that I am not partaking in the energy management. As some of our brother have across the 49th parallel have been doing for so many years.

This city is so *** backwards by the time its even thought of. The industry will have moved over to a 12th generation system.

But, that is what you get from a city and province that is run by a bunch of fucken morons and half wits!

Teken . . .