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Smart Meters…

smokey0810

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Opt out, or let it be installed? Opting out is $161.00 and $16/mo extra on bill.
Don’t want them adjusting my energy usage during peak summer hours here in Texas….
Got rid of my smart thermostat because I walked in one afternoon to find the temperature adjusted, and my wife and I were the only ones that touch it….and it was a hot day….the company states they won’t touch usage, but who can believe big companies….
 
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Git

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What actually does your smart meter do? Can they actually adjust (throttle) your energy usage?

We have had a 'smart meter' for several years now, and all it can do is be read remotely. In fact our electric utility, Southern California Edison, reimbursed me the $25 for a device that I bought that allows us to see our electrical usage in real time. In the screen grab below, green means our solar is producing more electricity than we are currently using and it is going back on to the grid for credit, which is currently 544 watts (Currently 8:50 AM, cloudy and it is supposed to rain)
 

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smokey0810

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Xcel Energy has a program where you can have them adjust your electric based on peak usage…..I thought previous homeowners had opted in and it stayed with the house….hence why i thought temp was being adjusted
They have started shutting power to areas on days when the winds are high for safety, due to the recent wildfires….started by a broken pole and now lawsuits are happening….
 

PCustoms

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Moreso adjust during peak usage, especially since they are getting rid of coal here and going with natural gas….
Read up on what they'll do with the meter.

My assumption is it just eliminates manual meter reading. Go for it.

Typically I'd they are going to curtail loads or shut power off for safety it's done as a section of the grid, not house by house. For curtailment during peak hours, usually it's a separate meter or incentive (via peak charges) for you to shut your high demand loads down.

I'm assuming your smart thermostat was just programmed incorrectly and that's why you thought someone was changing it.

No delicate way to put this, what's your age?
 

freedommachine

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Opt out. If you do not have one, you do not have to worry about what they do with it. You're lucky it's only $16 a month; I am forced to pay $28 a month for that "privilege".

The question that should be asked is; "why is there an option to opt out in the first place?" If these meters only read and report usage exactly like the old ones; why would a state's energy commission require electric companies to give customers the choice?

If it did not carry an additional invasion of privacy, they wouldn't have to provide the opt-out.
 

beltfeed

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Opt out! They are trying to shove that down everyone's throat in my state also. The POCO can't even get the bill correct month to month with a dumb meter. They hit you a monthly surcharge of $20 if you don't have a smart meter in my area now. On my local news they talked with a cyber security person who said the POCO software for the smart meter is terrible. He said this can easily get hacked from an outside source.
 

JunkBonds

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Tin foil hat time.

There are only 2 ways the power company can adjust your A/C. One is if you have "the box" that your A/C is wired into. The box is then wired into your panel. I have one of them. Our local company no longer supports the box or does this type of thing.

I guess the new way is through your thermostat but you have to explicitly allow that. And since you control your thermostat you can turn that "feature" on or off at any time.

The smart meters are only for time of use billing.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Opt out, or let it be installed? Opting out is $161.00 and $16/mo extra on bill.
Don’t want them adjusting my energy usage during peak summer hours here in Texas….
Huh? A smart meter cant adjust energy usage. Thats entirely up to you and what you turn on and off.

All it does is report your usage.

Are you confusing adjust with time of use rates?
Got rid of my smart thermostat because I walked in one afternoon to find the temperature adjusted, and my wife and I were the only ones that touch it….and it was a hot day….the company states they won’t touch usage, but who can believe big companies….
Why did you install a thermostat thats controlled by them in the first place?
 

wyliesdiesels

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Xcel Energy has a program where you can have them adjust your electric based on peak usage…..I thought previous homeowners had opted in and it stayed with the house….hence why i thought temp was being adjusted
Youre conflating different things here

They arent adjusting your electric usage for the entire house. They are only cycling your air conditioning during peak demand

That has NOTHING to do with a smart meter that can meter usage during peak times of the day and thus allow them to charge you time of use rates

Again 2 separate things.

Get rid of the thermostat

Ask them if you can get non time of use rates while still having a smart meter
They have started shutting power to areas on days when the winds are high for safety, due to the recent wildfires….started by a broken pole and now lawsuits are happening….
And that is something entirely different than the 2 issues you brought up above.

They shut power off for safety at the distribution level/rotating outage block. You Not having a smart meter doesnt prevent them from shutting power off for safety reasons

Again separate issue than the topics above.
 

wyliesdiesels

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I'm assuming your smart thermostat was just programmed incorrectly and that's why you thought someone was changing it.

No delicate way to put this, what's your age?
You assume wrong. Some PoCos have smart thermostats on an opt-in program that allow them to cycle air conditioners during peak demand times.

My PoCo has such a program. If you opt-in, They come to your house, install the equipment, then when theres high demand, they can shutoff my air conditioning during peak usage times at 15min/hour intervals.

Then you gas light him for his age? Smh
 

wyliesdiesels

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On my local news they talked with a cyber security person who said the POCO software for the smart meter is terrible. He said this can easily get hacked from an outside source.
Give me a break. Total and udder BS.

Smart meter networks have no connection to the outside world/internet. They ride on an internal network via encrypted radio waves and a LAN that has no connection to the outside world. They are purposefully not connected in anyway to a WAN on a firewall.

No they cannot easily be hacked from an outside source as there is no connection to an outside source

More false news. Smh :rolleyes:🤦‍♀️
 

Git

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At one point we opted in to SCE's 'Summer Discount Plan'. A contractor came out to the house and installed a device on one of our AC units. During 'energy events' they could send a signal to the box that would cut the power to that AC. Had nothing to do with the smart meter

Here are the discounts you could get, there were different levels
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PCustoms

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You assume wrong. Some PoCos have smart thermostats on an opt-in program that allow them to cycle air conditioners during peak demand times.

My PoCo has such a program. If you opt-in, They come to your house, install the equipment, then when theres high demand, they can shutoff my air conditioning during peak usage times at 15min/hour intervals.

Then you gas light him for his age? Smh
No, I assumed what I assumed based on the facts in from of me.

You have no clue what the reality is and are making an assumption as well. The OP states nothing other than smart thermostat.

Let's see where the facts come out. If the OP wants to give me **** for my assumption fine, but you didn't need to get involved in it at all.
 

AA/FC

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How can a smart meter control certain items in your house when it's ONLY connected to the service wiring that is feeding your main electric panel? It COULD theoretically turn off your entire house but there is no possible way for it to control individual loads.

I have a new smart meter. I wasn't sure about it at first, but then after thinking about I realized there isn't much they can do with it.

The one thing that sold me is.... We have have a lot of power outages in this old city. We have an old above ground electric grid and any thunderstorm, wind storm or ice storm can take out power for varying lengths of time. With the smart meter, they can see who has power, and who doesn't. They don't need to rely on people calling them with outage reports to figure out which neighborhoods need emergency storm repair. This may not be a big deal for some, but our house must be the electrical "oddball" on the block. We had a power outage once where everyone on the block had no power. The crews came out and somehow redirected power so half the block was back up and running within very little time. The rest of the block had to wait another day for more repairs to be made. Once the final repair was made, the ONLY house on the block (in the exact middle of the block) that still had no power was my house. Everyone had their power restored but me. I had to cal them and try to convince them that I was the only house still in the dark. It took two more days before they came back and figured out the problem. I suspect they really didn't believe me on the phone. How could ONE house still be without power after the repair crew just left the neighborhood??? Well, if I had a smart meter back then, they would be able to see my house was still dead and this problem would not have happened in the first place, or if it did, I might've had a repair crew back to my place quicker because they wouldn't need me to report the problem, or need to take my word for it..... it would be obvious on their computer screen.
 
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smokey0810

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I’m 47….😂😂😂
The thermostat came with the house and was installed by an outside hvac company. Even after I cleared the programming and em disconnected WiFi, it readjusted the temp during daytime hours. No one was home, but walking into a warmer house on a 100+ degree day is not fun.
I understand the shutting the power for safety issue….1.5 million acres burned, and the rates will go up thanks to lawsuits….the ceo of Xcel already made that statement publicly.
I, like many others, enjoy the ability to control my temperature and power usage without the electric company telling me what they think it should be, that’s all. Improve the infrastructure of our grid, don’t shut it down due to lack of capability….
Enough old man rant.
They explain on their website what happens with a smart meter, but I’m not a trusting person of big businesses, especially ones that have total market control. Yes, it sounds ridiculous, but competition is a good thing in the business world….
 

mikedodge

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We've had smart meters for 20+ years here but they've only been using them for time of use rates for maybe half that time. They do give you the option of using a set rate but the time of use rates average out anyway. They can't do anything to your power itself.

We've never gotten a smart thermostat and want nothing to do with one that someone else can control.
 
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sparky 1971

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I don't see how a meter can possibly control usage. I am going to take a guess and say that what will happen is it will know what the usage is during peak and off peak hours such as **¢ between 7 a.m. and 4 p.m., a higher rate from 4 p.m. until 9 p.m., then the cheapest rate from 9 p.m. until 7 a.m. I guess in a way it is controlling usage because some of the end users are going to throttle back on what is running during the peak hours. AFAIK, the only smart meters around here are the kind that broadcast the numbers so the meter reader doesn't have to walk up to each meter, and there are some that signal the POCO if power is interrupted, such as pulling the meter in order to change a main breaker. I have first hand experience with one of those...
 

ericm

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Hacking smart meters was a thing. See for example from 2012: https://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/04/fbi-smart-meter-hacks-likely-to-spread/ But the hacks generally involved under-reporting usage to the utility. I looked into the security of smart meter protocols back then and at the time the older protocols had some issues but newer ones were not so bad (security protocols have been a good part of what I do professionally since the '90s). There's not much risk of a hacker attacking your smart meter and doing something bad. I don't worry about it.

I'd be slightly more concerned about your utility (not the meter) getting hacked and the hackers getting your data off their servers. But that does not worry me much as that data is worth little on the black market.

PSPS outages for fire safety don't use the smart meter. They shut it off upstream of the meter.

The power company won't mess with your smart thermostat setting unless you sign up for that, and the programs I know of at with a third party company anyhow. It was probably the thermostat malfunctioning. They are known to do that, among many other things that can go wrong with then. I won't have one due to security, privacy and reliability concerns.
 

mikedodge

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I don't see how a meter can possibly control usage. I am going to take a guess and say that what will happen is it will know what the usage is during peak and off peak hours such as **¢ between 7 a.m. and 4 p.m., a higher rate from 4 p.m. until 9 p.m., then the cheapest rate from 9 p.m. until 7 a.m. I guess in a way it is controlling usage because some of the end users are going to throttle back on what is running during the peak hours. AFAIK, the only smart meters around here are the kind that broadcast the numbers so the meter reader doesn't have to walk up to each meter, and there are some that signal the POCO if power is interrupted, such as pulling the meter in order to change a main breaker. I have first hand experience with one of those...

That is the idea for controlling usage. Not that the meter physically does anything but they hope the different rates will entice people to change their habits and do things that use higher power usage at night.

I guess the only kind of neat part of the meter is here anyway you can log onto their website and track your usage down to every hr or .5 hr... i forget how accurate that gets but it's kind of interesting the first time you see that graph or when you have a higher then normal bill to sort of see whats going on. Then it gets old and you rarely look at it again lol.
 

sparky 1971

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That is the idea for controlling usage. Not that the meter physically does anything but they hope the different rates will entice people to change their habits and do things that use higher power usage at night.
When the phrase controlling the usage is used, others actually think that the POCO has the ability to turn the power off by flipping a remote switch in the meter.
I guess the only kind of neat part of the meter is here anyway you can log onto their website and track your usage down to every hr or .5 hr... i forget how accurate that gets but it's kind of interesting the first time you see that graph or when you have a higher then normal bill to sort of see whats going on. Then it gets old and you rarely look at it again lol.
I don't care about my usage, it is what it is. I just pay the bill and ***** about it.
 

beltfeed

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1713037060360.png

Give me a break. Total and udder BS.

Smart meter networks have no connection to the outside world/internet. They ride on an internal network via encrypted radio waves and a LAN that has no connection to the outside world. They are purposefully not connected in anyway to a WAN on a firewall.

No they cannot easily be hacked from an outside source as there is no connection to an outside source

More false news. Smh :rolleyes:🤦‍♀️


Here you go Wyliesdiesels, right from the horses mouth! My local POCO is RGE. Over the last few years, they have screwed up everything possible in the power grid.


________________________________________________________________________

Sumita Mishra is a professor in Rochester Institute of Technology’s Department of Computing Safety and one of the nation’s leading smart grid security and privacy researchers.

“I do understand the benefits, but at the same time, I don’t want to compromise my security and my privacy.”

Sumita Mishra, RIT professor

Smart meters gather your energy usage data once an hour and transmit it back to RG&E.

The information is encrypted, but Mishra and other security researchers with whom we spoke have concerns about the path that information has to travel from our home back to RG&E.

“These meters have the wireless capabilities and the reading has to reach the utility,” she said. “But they can not transmit at very high power because then we’ll have emission issues and other issues so they have to keep it low-powered transmissions.”

That means it’s likely the data has to likely bounce a few times before getting back to RG&E.


“We don’t have any information about whether this data is going to hop through our neighbor’s smart meter or directly go into a wireless collector node,” Mishra explained.

Why does that matter? Because it gives hackers more points of access and there’s at least one example of how that can be problematic. Back in 2021, a major storm knocked out power for days in the Dallas, Tex. area.

“The utility (in Texas) was not revealing for how long the houses were without power and they said, ‘Oh, it’s privacy concerns,” Mishra recalled.

So, an ethical hacker with a specialty antenna and some equipment on his car “drove around and he was able to get the information about which household was without power and for how long and that turned out to be because of weak routing protocols,” she said.

Jennifer Lewke, News10NBC: “And what’s the harm in weak routing protocols for the customer?”

Sumita Mishra, RIT professor: They can be exploited to do other things.”

Jennifer Lewke, News10NBC: “If I know, as someone with bad intentions, that a house has no power, I may more apt to break in because I know their cameras aren’t working or their home security system might be down?”

Sumita Mishra, RIT professor: “Absolutely. So, I’d like RG&E to be more transparent about what kind of encryption is being used, what kind of wireless is being used? If they can assure us that they are using the security and privacy preserving measures that will ensure that if there is a compromise, because we live in a world where we have to assume that it will get compromised, so if there is a compromise, it should not lead to breaches for my household.”
 
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Norcal

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I don't care for "smart meters" by getting one, I have time of use rates of .48 cents a KWH from 4PM -9PM every day.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Even after I cleared the programming and em disconnected WiFi, it readjusted the temp during daytime hours. No one was home, but walking into a warmer house on a 100+ degree day is not fun.
Whats the make and model on the thermostat?

This actually sounds like a smart thermostat that adjusts itself based on whether someone is home NOT because of utility control.
 

PCustoms

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Umm did you miss the title where it says smart meter?

Umm did you miss my post, that you quoted to give me a hard time, was about his smart thermostat that he removed because his HVAC was resetting itself?

This thread says smart meter, but was about concerns moving to a smart meter and mentioned previous trust issues due to the smart thermostat.
 

u2slow

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Whats the make and model on the thermostat?

This actually sounds like a smart thermostat that adjusts itself based on whether someone is home NOT because of utility control.

There are certain smart thermostats that are eligible for a rebate from the PoCo because it does provide some kind of access to cut heating/cooling load during peak demand. (So they say anyway...)
 

dogdog

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Opt out, or let it be installed? Opting out is $161.00 and $16/mo extra on bill.
Don’t want them adjusting my energy usage during peak summer hours here in Texas….
Got rid of my smart thermostat because I walked in one afternoon to find the temperature adjusted, and my wife and I were the only ones that touch it….and it was a hot day….the company states they won’t touch usage, but who can believe big companies….

We have no choice but to allow smart meters changed out. I doesn't really affect us in CT or NYC. They can not adjust your energy usage per-se... only charge you usage at different rates on different time of day, if they have not done that already. It's texas you are in though, they have totally different grid things and energy things from the last discussion here few years back.

as far as thermostat, unless you are getting that smart thermostat free from the utility company. The Thermostat manufacture , honeywell, echobee or that other guys, can not legally touch your settings for their enjoyments... but if it is free from the utility company, you sign your rights over to them.
 

wyliesdiesels

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1713037060360.png




Here you go Wyliesdiesels, right from the houses mouth! My local POCO is RGE. Over the last few years, they have screwed up everything possible in the power grid.


________________________________________________________________________

Sumita Mishra is a professor in Rochester Institute of Technology’s Department of Computing Safety and one of the nation’s leading smart grid security and privacy researchers.

“I do understand the benefits, but at the same time, I don’t want to compromise my security and my privacy.”

Sumita Mishra, RIT professor

Smart meters gather your energy usage data once an hour and transmit it back to RG&E.

The information is encrypted, but Mishra and other security researchers with whom we spoke have concerns about the path that information has to travel from our home back to RG&E.

“These meters have the wireless capabilities and the reading has to reach the utility,” she said. “But they can not transmit at very high power because then we’ll have emission issues and other issues so they have to keep it low-powered transmissions.”

That means it’s likely the data has to likely bounce a few times before getting back to RG&E.


“We don’t have any information about whether this data is going to hop through our neighbor’s smart meter or directly go into a wireless collector node,” Mishra explained.

lots of speculation on their part but lets break it down.
Why does that matter? Because it gives hackers more points of access and there’s at least one example of how that can be problematic. Back in 2021, a major storm knocked out power for days in the Dallas, Tex. area.

“The utility (in Texas) was not revealing for how long the houses were without power and they said, ‘Oh, it’s privacy concerns,” Mishra recalled.

So, an ethical hacker with a specialty antenna and some equipment on his car “drove around and he was able to get the information about which household was without power and for how long and that turned out to be because of weak routing protocols,” she said.

LoL its not a specialty antenna. and some equipment? what equipment would that be?

anyone with RF knowledge and know how can do what they did but it was most definitely NOT a hack. they simply scanned the airwaves to see which meters were transmitting. They didnt actually have access to the encrypted data and what was in it.

give me a break. talk about tinfoil hatery....
Jennifer Lewke, News10NBC: “And what’s the harm in weak routing protocols for the customer?”

Sumita Mishra, RIT professor: They can be exploited to do other things.”
umm such as? nice they make a speculation but dont offer any details. more BS fear mongering....
Jennifer Lewke, News10NBC: “If I know, as someone with bad intentions, that a house has no power, I may more apt to break in because I know their cameras aren’t working or their home security system might be down?”
lol thieves on meth can do that now. all they have to do is go look at the meter on the side of the house. they dont need an antenna and a sniffer to do this.

BTW cameras arent what protects a house. they only watch your **** as the thief steals it from your house. what protects your house is a burglar alarm. and those have battery backups. so its funny the news anchor brings up cameras but not burglar alarms.

give me a break
Sumita Mishra, RIT professor: “Absolutely. So, I’d like RG&E to be more transparent about what kind of encryption is being used, what kind of wireless is being used? If they can assure us that they are using the security and privacy preserving measures that will ensure that if there is a compromise, because we live in a world where we have to assume that it will get compromised, so if there is a compromise, it should not lead to breaches for my household.”
awww theres the admission that this supposed expert doesnt really know anything at all. so much for your smoking gun!
 
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wyliesdiesels

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Umm did you miss my post, that you quoted to give me a hard time, was about his smart thermostat that he removed because his HVAC was resetting itself?

This thread says smart meter, but was about concerns moving to a smart meter and mentioned previous trust issues due to the smart thermostat.
Try reading the OP again. the thread is actually about 2 things first one being about opting out of smart meters and costing $161 plus $16/mon

Did you miss that first sentence? or did you think it applied to the smart thermostat?

there isnt a single utility in this country that charges to opt out of using a smart thermostat. c'mon man.

try working on reading comprehension a little more
 

Git

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I guess the only kind of neat part of the meter is here anyway you can log onto their website and track your usage down to every hr or .5 hr... i forget how accurate that gets but it's kind of interesting the first time you see that graph or when you have a higher then normal bill to sort of see whats going on. Then it gets old and you rarely look at it again lol.
Our smart meter with the Emporia Home Energy Monitor reads down to the second.
In the graph, the big drop is because I turned on a space heater for a minute and then turned it off. Keep in mind, the Green part is us pushing electricity to the grid from solar, and when it drops it turns blue because at that point it is pulling from the grid as well as using what the panels are producing (no batteries we are on a 1:1 net metering program)

D24-0424.jpg
 

PCustoms

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try working on reading comprehension a little more

Holy ****, the irony. Literally everything you're arguing with me about is in regards to my post about the smart thermostat the OP mentioned, and now you're trying to tie it back to the smart meter.

I'm done discussing this with you.
 

American Locomotive

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Looking at Xcel Energy's website, the Smart meters just allow them to measure your power consumption more often. This gives you the option of switching to Time-of-Use monitoring.

It looks like the only other thing the smart meter can do over the standard wireless "automated reading" meters, is allow for remote disconnect of your service - presumably if you don't pay.

Here you go Wyliesdiesels, right from the houses mouth! My local POCO is RGE. Over the last few years, they have screwed up everything possible in the power grid.


So, an ethical hacker with a specialty antenna and some equipment on his car “drove around and he was able to get the information about which household was without power and for how long and that turned out to be because of weak routing protocols,” she said.
I can do that very same thing with my cellphone just by checking for available WiFi networks. "Oh look, no available networks at all on this street of 40 homes. I wonder what that could imply?"
 

ericm

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I can do that very same thing with my cellphone just by checking for available WiFi networks. "Oh look, no available networks at all on this street of 40 homes. I wonder what that could imply?"

Or you can see whose lights are on.

PG&E has an outage map that shows what houses are out. Many utilities have this.

I think the idea that thieves will suddenly descend on homes with no power because their wifi cams are down is a big stretch at best. Anecdotal, but power's out here all the time and we have not noticed an increase in crime when it's out. I'd need to see actual data instead of conjecture to believe it's an actual problem.
 

wyliesdiesels

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When the phrase controlling the usage is used, others actually think that the POCO has the ability to turn the power off by flipping a remote switch in the meter.

I don't care about my usage, it is what it is. I just pay the bill and ***** about it.
my PoCo actually can do that. They do so for non-pay disconnects.
 

AffableCurmudgeon

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First, a lot of people here are conflating smart meters with smart thermostats. Apples and oranges.

Second, those who are paying extra for conventional meters, you should know that soon you may not have a choice - you would have paid extra over the years for nothing, and you would end up with a smart meter (not thermostat) anyway.

Third, even if we stipulate for the sake of argument that a smart meter may be hacked and therefore " read" by a third party, who cares? Someone finds out your energy usage - big deal. Someone can steal your utility bill from your mailbox and get that same information.

Save your money and move on.
 
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smokey0810

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3,078
Location
Canyon, Texas
Whats the make and model on the thermostat?

This actually sounds like a smart thermostat that adjusts itself based on whether someone is home NOT because of utility control.
It was an Ecobee….have a basic, programmable Honeywell now that an HVAC tech friend recommended.
 
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