Smoke extractor

[bobj49f2]

I don't weld as a profession but I do weld and use a plasma cutter in my shop. I also cut a fair amount of stainless with my plasma cutter and when I do it really stinks up the shop. Not only that but I was told stainless gives off Chromium gas which isn't very good for you. During the warmer months this isn't too much of a problem but in the dead of winter I can't afford to open the doors to vent out the gases.

After looking around at smoke extractors I found the cheapest to be in the $4K+ area. I just couldn't justify spending that much for a tool I might use 2-3 a month. Also I'm cheap.

Here is my solution, it's not finished yet but I had to do some welding and plasma cutting last week and it seemed to work great. I cut and welding some metal last week, pretty much 3 days solid. I did some work in the morning and left the shop and came back a couple of hours later and couldn't detect any odor. Before, without the extractor, I could do work one day and still smell the odor the next day.

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I still have work to do on it. I have a swivel nozzle for the end of the arm so I can better aim the flared out nozzle. I also have to make a door for it with a "ON/OFF" and "SLOW/FAST" switch. I just had to use it last week before I could complete it. I'm glad I was able to test it before I did more work to it.

I tried to use parts I found at the local hardware store and big box home improvement stores. The box is a low priced tool box and the blower is from Harbor Freight. The filters I use are also common filter I got at Home Depot. The first one is a$2 pre-filter, the second is a $25 HEPA type filter, not a real HEPA but it is suppose to catch particles and smoke down the micron size. The third filter is another $2 filter that I am going to wrap with a carbon mat to eliminate odors.

 

[bad_idea]

Your pictures aren't loading. Chromium is quite bad for you. You should wear a respirator while cutting or welding stainless even with excellent ventilation.

 

[Case IH]

Wow, you fellas are scaring me, I work in a very small shop and all we work with is stainless (we build calf milk pasteurizers) and we have almost zero venelation this time of year with the garage door closed, we do all TIG welding BTW... Am I putting myself in danger? I usually only work from 1pm to 5-5:30pm so not long days and I do leave the shop periodically.....I'm aufully scared now...

 

[t100]

Tig welding 3xx stainless with proper shielding in the backside is not gonna hurt you. because there's no chemical reactions happening during the process.

well, welding cad/zinc plated steel is whole different story, you should not do it at all.

Plasma cutting, you should do it outside, if possible.

lincoln makes a portable Miniflex fume extractor for around $1500. I've used it, it works like a champ.

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/lincoln-electric-miniflex-smoke-extractor-k2376-1.html#.UN9j_Lbo6a0

the toxic fumes, you can't smell it, doesn't mean it's not there.

if I were you, I would rig up a very simple suction system for couple hundred bucks, people have been doing this for decades.

400cfm in-line exhaust fan, $80
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...oogleMKP&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA

6" x 8-foot flex ducting. $13, maybe 2 or 3 depends on how much you need to get it out of the wall.
http://www.homedepot.com/Heating-Ve...Id=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#.UN9mWbbo6a0

various vent hood, plates: $50

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...Id=-1&keyword=vent&storeId=10051#.UN9nDbbo6a1

 

[bobj49f2]

Ventilation is always important any time you do anything that causes fumes. I can't think of any fumes that don't harm you, other than a good pot of food simmering on the stove, they just drive you nuts when you're really hungry.

I fixed the images. I had the original parked on the HAMB site and thought I could post them here, I guess not.

 

[bobj49f2]

I was thinking about venting out a back window but I didn't go that route for two reasons. If you are blowing out you also have to pull in. I didn't want to pull cold air into my shop. The second reason is the portibility of this unit. I can pull it close to where I'm working, which can be almost anywhere in my shop.

 

[K2Orion]

Very cool. I need to build something similiar.
What are the brackets you used at the flexible joints?

 

[bobj49f2]

Very cool. I need to build something similiar.
What are the brackets you used at the flexible joints?

I designed my own brackets. Those and the swivel joint at base are only parts I couldn't buy.

 

[Steevo]

That is a pretty cool fume extractor you made there.

I think some close-ups of your joints/swivel are in order.

 

[Strouty]

So can we actually build a fume extractor that can take the harmful gas out of the air? Or are we just taking the dust out of the air? If it goes outside, does the gas just disperse or will it hang around near the vent?

 

[kbs2244]

"So can we actually build a fume extractor that can take the harmful gas out of the air? Or are we just taking the dust out of the air? If it goes outside, does the gas just disperse or will it hang around near the vent? "

I have to agree with this.
All he has is a dust filter.
The chemicals he needs to exhaust are not being removed.

It is time to waste the heat and save your lungs.
And maybe your life.

 

[Strouty]

"So can we actually build a fume extractor that can take the harmful gas out of the air? Or are we just taking the dust out of the air? If it goes outside, does the gas just disperse or will it hang around near the vent? "

I have to agree with this.
All he has is a dust filter.
The chemicals he needs to exhaust are not being removed.

It is time to waste the heat and save your lungs.
And maybe your life.

My point was I know they make commercial units to remove the bad gas and particles from the air, I am wondering if we can do it without the huge cost of a commercial machine. I see that you can buy spare filters for the welding fume extractors, but the filters are about $350. Anyone know of a filter that would be cheaper but still do the job? I figure Miller and Lincoln add a lot to the cost of the filter. I agree that venting outside is the best option and that health and safety comes before anything else, I am trying to make something for the plasma cutter and welding fumes myself.

 

[t100]

there are 3 ways to treat toxic material in general: neutralize, dilute, contain.

there are all kinds of toxic "stuff" in the air we breath, the question is "how much is there?"

when vented outside, it's diluted by "clean" air and down to a safe PPM level of you don't have to worry about it.

everybody knows how expensive to have the toxic chromium fume neutralized.

containment is basically done by filtering the gas through charcoal. what kind of charcoal, how much it can take in, etc, that's why companies charge a lot for their machines and consumables.

I still think the best way to do it is to get it away from your body, let God takes care of it.

 

[bobj49f2]

I haven't done an air quality study of how good my systems works at removing what gases and how much. I do know when I used it my shop didn't have a haze hanging in it immediately after I finished cutting and welding on my project. My shop also didn't have the lingering smell of metal for a day or two. I left the shop for an hour or two to go to the store and also so I could clear my senses so I could tell when I came whether I could smell the metal odor. I figured if you're immersed in a environment you really can't tell the difference until you were a way for a while. When I got back to the shop I couldn't sense any odor.

My system may not be perfect but, as I stated, I am not a professional metal worker, I only use the welder or plasma cutter 2-3 times a months, the welder maybe for an hour each time and the plasma cutter maybe a half hour. If I used these machines on a daily basis for a large part of the day then I'd invest in either a hood with outside ventilation or a $4K portable system. I would think even the $4K systems don't recover 100% of the contaminants. What I have build I feel is adequate for the needs of the occasional use I have for it.

The person I talked to about stainless steel cutting is a metal worker who works for one of my customers. My customer is a large metal fab shop with about 20 guys working in their shop. Their shop is a large open building, maybe 300'X300' with 30' ceiling and they do a combination of mild and stainless steel fabrication. I couldn't see any type of ventilation system, nothing that is directed at each of the welding stations and was told the building had a positive ventilation system. He also said the system monitors the air quality. You can see a constant haze in the air, although not very dense there is still a slight haze and you can also smell the ozone and metal gases in the air. This place is very safety conscious and I am confident the air inside must meet certain minimum requirements. After using my system I could not notice any haze or smell. I'm not saying I developed a perfect system but it's a lot better than it was without.

I don't have the money to invest in a professional system. I wanted to build a machine that I could afford with parts, specifically the filters, that can be bought cheaply. To give the guy working in their garage a suggestion. I figure I have about $300 in it so far with a few more dollars to go. If a guy searched CL I'm sure it could be done for less. To degrade what I did and imply someone should cough up $4K+ for a tool that the occasional user might use once or twice a month is foolish. If a person built something like this for their garage it could eliminate the odors from wafting into the living areas. I know there are guys who weld in their garages and here about it when they go into the house.

 

[Kevin54]

Wow, you fellas are scaring me, I work in a very small shop and all we work with is stainless (we build calf milk pasteurizers) and we have almost zero ventilation this time of year with the garage door closed, we do all TIG welding BTW... Am I putting myself in danger? I usually only work from 1pm to 5-5:30pm so not long days and I do leave the shop periodically.....I'm awfully scared now...

Where I worked, we had a welder that TIG welded in a small room. Maybe a 10' x 10' room. I don't know how many years he welded in there, but every type of material was welded. Aluminum, brass, bronze, Beryllium copper, steel, titanium, you name it. A few years ago, he wasn't acting quite right.

After many doctors visits, he was diagnosed with Pick's Disease http://www.helpguide.org/elder/picks_disease.htm I was sad to see how fast he went downhill. In a matter of months he went form sort of losing track as to what he was saying, to the point that he was caught a few times at night walking into town in the ****. He walked into the Flea Market one day and bought a BB gun, was walking home (fully dressed) and someone reported someone with a gun walking along the roadside. The law came, pulled their guns, kept telling him to drop his, but he couldn't comprehend. Luckily another sheriff pulled up and knew who he was.

One morning we get up, go to the kitchen, and there stands the neighbor in the house. We had forgot to lock the back door that night and it was in the summer. There are more stories, but I won't bore anyone with the details.

Anyways, they sort of tied the fumes from welding all of those years to contracting the Pick's Disease. Whether it actually does or not, I suppose that there would have to be way more studies conducted to tell whether it does cause it or not, but why take a chance? Any toxic odors or fumes is not a good thing, so anything you can do to extract the fumes only helps to prolong someones life.

 

[PAToyota]

So can we actually build a fume extractor that can take the harmful gas out of the air? Or are we just taking the dust out of the air? If it goes outside, does the gas just disperse or will it hang around near the vent?

Looking at the commercially available systems, the thing that is missing from this system is an activated carbon filter. You could probably find something that fits and use one of them as well and be set.

[edit]Went back and saw that it was mentioned that the third filter was going to get wrapped with a carbon filter.

Also, I may have missed it, but I didn't see anything about a spark arrestor? Chances are probably low that a spark would make it the whole way through the inlet tubing to the filters and particle board, but it is always good to plan for the worst in such situations.

 

[flippin]

. To degrade what I did and imply someone should cough up $4K+ for a tool that the occasional user might use once or twice a month is foolish. If a person built something like this for their garage it could eliminate the odors from wafting into the living areas. I know there are guys who weld in their garages and here about it when they go into the house.

Objectively reading the comments I don't think anyone was "degrading" your efforts. This is always a risk with written comments in that misinterpretation is always a possibility. No one likes to have something they created criticized and understandably so. There is no doubt your effort an ingenuity are immediately apparent given the final product which was applauded by many of the posts. However I must agree that the toxic fumes which are a potential by-product of the activities mentioned will still exist despite your best efforts. As environmental consultants we also routinely conduct indoor air quality tests (IAQ) as part of our offered services. The elimination of the air born chemicals mentioned will require carbon filtration and potentially chlorine air scrubbers. Obviously this is cost prohibitive and given the limited use certainly not worth the effort when simple air-exchange will accomplish the intended objective.

All of that said, your portable filtration system will help "clean" the air as you have already identified. But it is important for others to be aware that the significantly harmful chemicals will still exist despite the absence of smoke and smell. A potential false sense of security existed and I think that the mention by a couple of the posts was merely intended to identify that this health hazard was still real.

As mentioned already, dilution is a solution to pollution. Exhausting the gases despite the marginal increase in heat costs (given the limited use) is undoubtedly your best option. Unless you change your habits (4-6 hours per month) the heat cost delta shouldn't be that much.

Hope this helps and really nice build.

 

[bobj49f2]

I thought about a spark resistor of some sort but I think the chance of a spark actually making it through the duct into the filter chamber is extremely slim, once there I doubt a spark would live long enough to ignite, not enough to worry about. I had some one ask if I would use it to exhaust fumes from paint and I would not think of do that at all. I'd be worried about the flammable paint fumes going past the blower motor. Now this is, IMO, a great potential for an explosion.

As for the air quality and the elimination of dangerous gases. I am not fooling myself, I know many dangerous gases will still be present and again, if I did this type of work for a great amount of time I'd check into professional system. From what I have been able to see the mobile systems available aren't anything more than a filtering systems. I don't think any have a scrubbing system. The only thing I've seen that makes them better is they have air differential monitoring between the filters to indicate if they need changing. I'll just have to depend on looking at them every so often.

As for venting to the outside that would be rather difficult for my to do. I have windows in my shop but I cut and weld in different locations in my shop. Trying to run a vent duct to numerous locations in my shop wouldn't work. For the small amount of cutting and welding i do I know it wouldn't be long before it turned into a bigger hassle than I would deem it was worth so I wouldn't do it. It would take me half an hour to set up and put away for 15 minutes of work. The mobile I built is easy to roll around and position in a few minutes and only a few more to fold up and push back into the corner. All the safety equipment in the world won't do any good if it's not used.

 

[Strouty]

As for the air quality and the elimination of dangerous gases. I am not fooling myself, I know many dangerous gases will still be present and again, if I did this type of work for a great amount of time I'd check into professional system. From what I have been able to see the mobile systems available aren't anything more than a filtering systems. I don't think any have a scrubbing system. The only thing I've seen that makes them better is they have air differential monitoring between the filters to indicate if they need changing. I'll just have to depend on looking at them every so often.

In my opinion, you have greatly reduced any exposure just by moving the fumes away from you while welding. We all know to keep out of the fume plume, so by filtering and moving the air you are diluting it to a more acceptable level. Are there reasonable ways to conduct air quality tests at home? I guess worst case you could get a shop canary like the miners used.

 

[Transman304]

Please ck this link out. This stuff is real. I work in the mining equipment repair industry and have seen many cases of WEIRD sickness and early deaths in shop workers that worked with these metals. Most of the wear plate is bonded with chromium and has to be cut on a water jet but is still welded out in the shop. http://www.hse.gov.uk/welding/fume-facts.htm

 

[kbs2244]

I hope you get the idea.
You cannot trust your nose.
Blow it out the roof.
The $20.00 bucks a month in heat will be worth it.

 

[78Bird]

I agree, rig that to blow the fumes out a window or vent or something. The filters wont stop toxic chemical fumes (gasses). This at least lets you use a very minimal opening to the cold instead of the whole door.

Good job on the swivels though, looks nice and I bet it works great too.

 

[bobj49f2]

I agree the best solution would be to vent to the outside but I don't think that's the most practical way for me to do it. I'd have to dedicate an area in the corner of my shop just for this, I can't do it. I also perform this work in different areas of my shop, wherever I my projects allow me to work on them, so I have to be mobile.

I will admit the design for my unit isn't all mine. I did do some research on the web sites of the smoke extractors web sites to get ideas for the unit. Here are images from a couple of the web sites that I visited:

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I really can't see any difference from my unit compared to the $4K+ units. They have a few more bells and whistles but the basic design is pretty much the same. Considering my usage will probably be 10%, or less, than what a pro will use my unit should work just fine.

 

[t100]

looks like you have already made up your mind and invested your time and money into it. and you are happy with it handling your health.

none of us is qualified to give you a seal of approval or denial. because we have no way to get it tested via internet pictures.

you can compare the real Indy 500 tires and Coker re-production tires. they have the exact same construction and generally the same tire compound. but, it's just some of the 0.01% of the chemicals making one is good for running at 240mph, another at 100mph.

are all the HEPA filters the same, are all the activated charcoal the same? I honestly don't know.

 

[bobj49f2]

you can compare the real Indy 500 tires and Coker re-production tires. they have the exact same construction and generally the same tire compound. but, it's just some of the 0.01% of the chemicals making one is good for running at 240mph, another at 100mph.

are all the HEPA filters the same, are all the activated charcoal the same? I honestly don't know.

I agree, but you also have to look at how you are going to use a product. If you're going to go all out, 240 mph or weld 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, go with the best. Or are you going to drive to the local car show every other week or weld 2 hours every month, most likely you can do with something of lesser quality.

 

[kbs2244]

Well….
I guess the best analogy is face dust masks vs. fume protector masks.
They look the same but do different things.
What you copied are dust removers, not fume.
Look in the welding magazines or sites for the difference.

Not to take away from the workmanship.
It is good.
I would just like you to set the box in the doorway, pointing out.

 

[bobj49f2]

Well….
I guess the best analogy is face dust masks vs. fume protector masks.
They look the same but do different things.
What you copied are dust removers, not fume.
Look in the welding magazines or sites for the difference.

I kind of feeling like I'm banging my head against the wall. The above information I posted is from company web sites who are calling their products a "Fume Extractor" Maybe they are false advertising.

From one site:

XXXX™ air cleaners are designed for installation in industrial applications for the removal of smoke, dust and other airborne contaminants. XXXX™ will remove particulate as small as 0.5 micron with it's standard filters and acts as a heat recovery device to drastically reduce heating cost by cleaning and recycling plant air. The XXXX™ self-cleaning unit requires little maintenance. The unit is portable and can capture contaminants at source. The unit's arm is self-supporting and captures pollutants before they reach the worker's breathing zone.​

From another:

The XXXX is ideal for industrial process contamination, source capture, and for plants requiring periodic dust collection at various locations. The XXXX is a portable air cleaner for capturing welding fumes, grinding dusts, dry dusts, and soldering fumes, and other airborne particles.​

My unit might not grab as small of particles as the professional units, maybe it will, I just don't know without doing a verifiable test. I can guarantee this, it will capture a heck of a lot more than when I didn't have it.

 

[K2Orion]

I like it. I plan to build something similar. Especially after the 2 hours I spent welding in the garage last night. But last night was a maybe once a year experience. And it was bad luck that this "project" needed to be done in January or I would have done it with the doors and windows open.

IMHO, if welding indoors: nothing< $5 walmart box fan< something like bobj49f2 built< professional hood and fume extractor.

On the subject, is a respirator with activate charcoal filters a good option? What's a good source online?

And like SteveO said, how about some insight to your hinges? Stop arguing with the nay-sayers and banging your head against the wall. Some of us like your idea and could use your help.

 

[CNGsaves]

What if you bounced that polluted air past / thru some Water membrane . . . ie much akin to what diesel trucks are doing now with Urea in exhaust?

Then you would have polluted water that you could let evaporate outside as needed. Would it work?

 

[e-tek]

I also think you're way ahead by just moving the fumes away from the work area and it looks like you've done that well. Even a small fan near the welding is better than it coming into your mask. Love the ingenuity.

Perhaps instead of just filtering it through the media, just cut a 6" hole in the shop wall and add pipe to exhaust it = perfect system.

(Sorry - I just read the other exhausting suggestions and your replies).

When I weld or paint, I use my wall fan and crack a window on the other side. Also not a perfect system, but it's pretty good.

 

[PAToyota]

I kind of feeling like I'm banging my head against the wall. The above information I posted is from company web sites who are calling their products a "Fume Extractor" Maybe they are false advertising.

I agree with you. Here is a link to Lincoln's portable fume extractor: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/Equipment/Pages/product.aspx?product=K1653-2(LincolnElectric)

And here is the parts breakdown: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/servicenavigator-public/lincoln1/p319.pdf

Presumably, they know a thing or two about welding, welding fumes, and how to remove them. You look through the thing and it has a fan motor, spark arrestor, cellulose filter, and an activated carbon filter all in a housing with a switch and a few other items. It isn't exactly rocket science.

My initial concern had been that you didn't have an activated carbon filter - when I re-read what you had written I saw that you had that covered as well. One thing I'm not clear on is how exactly you're supposed to know when a carbon filter is "used up" and needs to be replaced?

I'd still argue that a spark arrestor would be a good idea. All you would need is a fine metal screen to stop the sparks. Again, not rocket science.

For the life of me, I have no idea why those things cost $4K. It is sort of a glorified filtered shop vac. Probably some of it is paying for the testing to certify that it is going to do what it needs to do and probably some of it is that it says "Lincoln" on it rather than "Harbor Freight" - just like a Snap-On toolbox costs about 10x what something similar from HF does...

If you look up the parts numbers for the filters, the carbon filter is about $70 and the other filter is either $400 (regular) or $700 (high efficiency) I tend to doubt that those prices have much to do with the actual filter material and more to do with the fact that it is a custom size for their extractor. Just like the odd shaped air filters for EFI setups are several times as expensive as the old standard round filters for carbed vehicles.

 

[kwb]

Please keep in mind that sucking hot items into a fast moving air stream is akin to using a leaf blower to getting a camp fire going.

Spark arrestor is very important.

I also bet the "real" extractor filters are highly flame retardant material.

 

[bobj49f2]

I'll try to post drawings later.

Spark arrester is.good,simple addition.

 

[E.rodz]

Here is another option for you this is called a plymo vent it is hooked up to a fan in my attic swivels extends about 8 ft. there is another mfg. called Nederman that also makes these they are ridiculous expensive but you can find them used for a song. although I agree that you are making a particle extractor everything helps but it is no different then wearing a dust mask for painting it might be giving you a false sense of security I would definitely use it when you are welding and grinding and it will help just not on the fume part. I have a friend that has 2 more of these plymo extractors that he is ready to sell I will find out what he wants for them.

 

[CNGsaves]

Here's a store-bought example of Welding Fume Exhauster in CL ad in OKC.

Lectro Static is the model and used listed for $750
http://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/tls/3501410241.html

 

[Gregger Rod & Custom]

E.Rodz is right.

Keep watching for a used unit. I just bought one from a metal fabricating shop. It came complete with the arm, some new flex hose and a high power exhaust fan for $100. Very low use unit as well.

Took me over a year of searching but it was worth my time.

Before buying this I simply turned on the high power wall mounted industrial exhaust fan and cracked the door open a crack for make up air.... Winter or summer. Just last month I was welding / fabricating all day, every day.... and it was freezing outside. My radiant heater simply ran non stop.

I'm looking forward to installing the 'new to me' unit.

Gregger

 

[PCO6]

Just thinking with my finger tips here but would a modified woodworking dust collection system work as an extraction system? If you took something like the one pictured below, added an intake tube similar to the one in E.rodz's picture above and exhausted it out of the room instead of into a bag ... would that work?

I like bobj49f2's efforts to filter the fumes. The parts that make up the manufactured units don't seem to be that complicated and I think he's really on to something. I also like the comments about simply getting rid of the fumes. In a small shop or one with a dedicated welding area (and no neighbours) I can see that working too.

 

[zulu226]

My brother in law went to Tech school and became a welder. He had a beard and never wore any type of respirator while welding. At 42 years old he had a breathing issue and went to the Doctor. He was then referred to a specialist at the hospital. While waiting to have some images taken of his lungs he started coughing up blood. Ended up in the ICU and died a week later. Basically they said he died from "welders lung". All those years of welding and breathing in the fumes killed him. Take all the precautions you can, vent it out side and wear proper protection.

Great thread here guys.

 

[ripper70]

I built this system to **** out the fumes from welding. Its works VERY well. As im welding you can see the smoke being sucked up and out. Ive got an adapter to hook to the main line that will have a damper for a piece of 25' flex that will attach to a portable hood im going to build on casters. Heres a pic

Heres my build: http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=225559

 

[jmarkwolf]

Post moved by author to Heating and A/C, Low Buck Fume Exhaust Discussion.