OP
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
a GFCI is not an OCPD so that is just a coincidence.
Snake oil!!
- Thread starter wyliesdiesels
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OP
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
theres an edit button
OP
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
why? all you have to do is put a regular receptacle where the GFCI is and then put the GFCI in the outside location. no tearing out numerous walls required.
Never said it was an OCPD.
I've talked about it here before. I cant explain what weird issue my wiring had, but everything was fine before. Having a GFCI trip and 2 appliances on that circuit apparently fry their control boards the same afternoon I used a welder in another GFCI that tripped is more then a coincidence.
Agree that in a properly wired building what I experienced isn't possible, but the house had some basket case wiring... incorrectly shared neutral, ground carrying current, 14 gage on 30A breakers, 220v on an extension cord coming out of a hole drilled in the wall next to the outlet etc.
No clue what (if) the original issue was or how it fed back through the separate circuit in the kitchen, but the appliances were toast. Maybe them shorting is what tripped that GFCI.
All I know is I had to get coffee at the gas station, buy new appliances and I haven't had any issues since complete rewire.
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I removed the text to add my comment.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Not to mention that modern refrigerators and freezers don't use squat for power so a dedicated circuit is nowhere near a necessity, especially when that dedicated circuit would have to have an AFCI to pass an inspection. My fridge probably isn't even considered modern since it's seven years old. LG french door with the pull out freezer and it uses less than four amps. I don't know the cubic footage of my upright freezer, but it's 6'4" tall and uses 1.8 amps, I think it's three, no more than four years old. They are pieces of **** and won't last as long as the old Kenmores of the 70's and 80's, but at least they're cheap to run...
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theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Got to agree. Korean built appliance don't seem to last and get repair parts TAKES FOREVER !
cvairwerks
Well-known member
This house looks like it was wired by a monkey coming off a multiweek bender of crack and booze. Unfortunately, there are recepticles downstream of the GFCI's that are required to be protected as well. Don't really want to convert to GFCI breakers , as we are planning on getting out of this house next year.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
kj_mustang
Well-known member
Sparky, hope your LG fridge lasts better than mine. $2,100 french door fridge purchased for new house build about 7 years ago. It lasted 2.5 years on first compressor, jackass warranty repair guy slapped a new compressor in and didn't even figure out why it failed. That compressor lasted a year max until leak made it fail. After many calls to LG, I finally got them to cover the repair again and had to get a repair guy from 45-60 minutes away because no one local will work on them anymore. Was going to take a month for appointment and I wouldn't trust it anymore after losing food twice. I bought a Whirlpool and the LG repair guy had to take out the whole interior back panel and replace the evaporator coils and compressor. I gave the fridge to my daughter after the repair.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
I am so glad Indiana saw thru the sham and is one of the only states that doesn’t require arc fault breakers.
Now if they would just outlaw the main reason for them in the first place, back stab devices
Now if they would just outlaw the main reason for them in the first place, back stab devices
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Did they exclude AFCI altogether? Last I knew, Indiana was on the 2008 which required AFCI at least for bedroom circuits, I'm not sure if it had expanded to other rooms by then. If they took AFCI completely out, good for them. Iowa excluded GFCI for residential 240 volt receptacles and AC's.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
Probably providing a link is the best way to provide that info. One has a choice of which version of the code they follow but they can’t pick or chose, it’s one or the other.
OP
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
I didnt say anything about a GFCI breaker.
You could remove the GFVI at the current location, put a GFCI at the outside location and then another at the downstream location to protect the others
Looking at the FUD news articles about AFCIs pushed in the media about how Indiana is going to make homes burn down that seems like a fair tradeoff for people who complain.
Mr onetwo
Well-known member
This is a great discussion.Let me propose this question to all you licenses electricians here. If you were building a new house for your family in a rural area with no rules,inspections or even inspectors save for plumbing...what would you install because of or in spite of the NEC? C'mon guys ...speak up.
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
I'd install GFI on all kitchens, bathrooms, basements, garages, and outside for 15 and 20, 120V outlets only.
I wouldn't install AFCI anywhere because of the snake oil factor.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
I've been in a similar situation, I built a house in 2006, the state didn't invade small towns with the code until 2007. I would do everything the same as I did then: GFCI on each side of the kitchen sink, bathrooms, and outside receptacles. The end.
I’ll toss this tid bit in here. I haven’t touched resi work in decades and haven’t a clue on code requirements for it since the 90’s. But I do have the same snake oil opinion about AF breakers.
Regardless last Wednesday we had a lightening strike about 20ft off the back of the house. Threw the house for a little whammy, dropped one leg on the utility side and set off a few bells and whistles.
In the end I lost two GFI receptacles, the internet router and gave the garage door opener a lobotomy. All in all I got real lucky
What was interesting to me is it tripped two of the three AF breakers. But nothing downstream of those breakers were damaged. I’m still mulling that one over in my head.
Regardless last Wednesday we had a lightening strike about 20ft off the back of the house. Threw the house for a little whammy, dropped one leg on the utility side and set off a few bells and whistles.
In the end I lost two GFI receptacles, the internet router and gave the garage door opener a lobotomy. All in all I got real lucky
What was interesting to me is it tripped two of the three AF breakers. But nothing downstream of those breakers were damaged. I’m still mulling that one over in my head.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I wanted to sell & move out of CA, & was looking at Northern Arkansas, the county only has septic inspections & I don't like how they wire things there, and i asked the same question at a electrical forum, but I would not install AFCI's, nor would I have GFCI's on the clothes dryer or electric range, either, I would love to have a house done in EMT too but that is a bit much.
micromind
Well-known member
Same here and especially no AFCIs.
How many of you professional electricians are going to wire your new house in a code and inspection free zone with all the stuff you have stashed in your shed and garage that's left over from jobs done in the past? Ya got that 500' roll of #12 thhn, sure it's purple but the electrons don't know....
My house was done by an industrial electrician.How many of you professional electricians are going to wire your new house in a code and inspection free zone with all the stuff you have stashed in your shed and garage that's left over from jobs done in the past? Ya got that 500' roll of #12 thhn, sure it's purple but the electrons don't know....
I've since rewired everything.
OP
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
purple would not be a code violation for the ungrounded conductor
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
The only colors that are prohibited are green, white, and gray
walta
Well-known member
Does not sound that hard, install multiple GFCI outlets in the locations where GFCI is needed and feed the next device from the line terminals and connect nothing to the load terminals.Wish I could, but it feeds the outside receptacle by the kitchen door. Wiring in this house is strange....The GFCI for the kitchen sink outlets also feed the outside one by the front door. The one for the small bathroom feeds the one inside by the kitchen door....
Walta
NostraThpmas
Active member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2023
- Messages
- 37
100% correct. What I was trying to say (and aparently failing) is that NEC does not say "refrigerator must be on GFCI because it's in a kitchen."
If the location of the refrigerator triggers another part of NEC like 210.8(A)(7) [6' from a sink], or 210.8(A)(3) [outdoors], then those parts must also be followed.
Jim greengo
Well-known member
What's wrong with purple?How many of you professional electricians are going to wire your new house in a code and inspection free zone with all the stuff you have stashed in your shed and garage that's left over from jobs done in the past? Ya got that 500' roll of #12 thhn, sure it's purple but the electrons don't know....
Nothing, I read somewhere purple is the new orange.
Understand the BOY, Brown, Orange, Yellow for 480V is not allowed in San Fransisco, Brown, Purple, Yellow, is required, because orange is required for the high leg on 240V delta.
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
I looked up the SF Electrical Code.
It says that purple is color for 120/240 Delta, because 480 is reserved for BOY.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
Seems like common sense is what is not allowed in SF
Diesel Dan
Well-known member
Have two random breaker trippers at my place.
One is a GFCI outlet in the shop bathroom. Bathroom has a dedicated electric tankless water heater. Ocasionally when turning on the hot water the outlet will trip w/o load on it. With any load, even a simple night light, it has never tripped. WH is 240V dedicated circuit, gfci is dedicated single outlet, both home run to the panel box less than 10'.
Second one just recently started happening. Son built me a gaming PC, all new components. After couple hours of run time, it has tripped my AF/GFCI breakers (squareD QO) multiple times now. Moved the tower to a different circuit and that AF/GFCI breaker eventually tripped too. We have run the same gaming setup at his house the whole weekend with higher loads and not tripped his standard breakers.
Every ground and neutral has its own termination point, nothing double up on the bars.
One is a GFCI outlet in the shop bathroom. Bathroom has a dedicated electric tankless water heater. Ocasionally when turning on the hot water the outlet will trip w/o load on it. With any load, even a simple night light, it has never tripped. WH is 240V dedicated circuit, gfci is dedicated single outlet, both home run to the panel box less than 10'.
Second one just recently started happening. Son built me a gaming PC, all new components. After couple hours of run time, it has tripped my AF/GFCI breakers (squareD QO) multiple times now. Moved the tower to a different circuit and that AF/GFCI breaker eventually tripped too. We have run the same gaming setup at his house the whole weekend with higher loads and not tripped his standard breakers.
Every ground and neutral has its own termination point, nothing double up on the bars.
Diesel Dan
Well-known member
Understand, it's the GFCI that trips and not the breaker.
My guess, it's from the PWM water heater causing the GFCI to see a variation in the ground/neutral. I definitely don't have sensitive enough graphing meters to prove this.
Adding something as low as a 5w nightlight to a 1500w space heater keeps it from tripping. The GFCI has only, EVER, tripped with no load when the water heater turns on.
Yeah, your post was not clear about adding an additional load on the circuit
Edit: which re-reading this you aren't. A 120v/5w nightlight on a GFCI and a 240v dedicate circuit aren't related
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OP
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
since they are separate circuits and the WH is not on the load side of the GFCI, it would be impossible for the WH to trip the GFCI. That defies logic.
probably an issue with the AFCI. i would get rid of it.
OP
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
that is impossible. the WH is not on the load side of the GFCI. The GFCI does not care what is going on on the line side....
pure coincidence...