My goodness fella's... Why so much back and forth? If you feel you are beating the system by purchasing Williams, Congrats! Obviously there are shared assets between the 2 divisions, but outside of the "general hand tools" the difference's and marketing, which includes R&D for today's automobiles becomes blatantly obvious.
Snap-On and Williams USA socket comparison
- Thread starter NedNorton
- Start date
superautobacs
Well-known member
I've never worked in that field, but from what I've learned about tool manufacturing, what you've just said is true.
The two brands, Snap-on and Williams, will undergo the same manufacturing processes to make a wrench/socket/etc., but at some of the manufacturing stages (and there's many), the Williams equivalent can be turned in less time. For example, like you mentioned, in the heat treatment stage, more sockets/wrenches/etc. can be stuffed onto the rack. The same can be said for the bake oven and the chrome bath stages, where greater quantities are done at a time. Less time at those stages means they can produce more tools for a given time. That directly affects the final price of the tool.
I can understand where Williams tools can be produced at a cheaper cost than the Snap-on equivalent, but the major price difference comes from Snap-on's business model, and TwoInch puts it well:
When I walk into the SO truck, I have to listen to him talk about how and why theirs is the best. I'm a discerning tool buyer, so I'm not that gullible like many others might be.
thesilverone
Well-known member
seeing people quote twoinch makes me very glad i put him on my ignore list a long time ago
Wakefield
Well-known member
What is most important is not the rotation of the points but having the wrench opening right in the middle and not off to one side so that one side of the box end is thinner than the other.
Does the more expensive wrench act more like a tuning fork (make a musical sound when it is tapped?)
I don't think Williams comes in as many different styles as Snap On--like the extreme flat box end wrench--
Does the more expensive wrench act more like a tuning fork (make a musical sound when it is tapped?)
I don't think Williams comes in as many different styles as Snap On--like the extreme flat box end wrench--
superautobacs
Well-known member
, if these are 12pt box wrenches. The differences are neglible, even if there were variances between batches. That picture is absolutely meaningless to me.The broaching angles are more critical with 6pt box wrenches though, especially with zero-offset wrenches. Ideally, the broaching should be 15* from the beam centerline so that you can flip over the wrench to work the fastener within a 30* swing range. The same can be said for 12pt box, zero-offset wrenches. I don't know about Snap-on, but Nepros broaches theirs 7*30' from the beam centerline so that the wrench can be worked at a 15* swing range.
I think TwoInch is the one that's actually NOT clueless.
Seems that people are reading way too much into what they're saying. I don't think they're trying to pass off anything like functional superiority because of it, they're just saying that's the extremes that they go to make sure everything is the best it can be. Not really any different than something like a higher trim level on a car. You can brag about it but in the end it really doesn't matter. Goes for the different hardness levels on the wrenches and claimed finish differences as well.
I just don't understand why certain members practically go ballistic trying to say its not true. Who gives a damn? Its trivial differences whether its true or not. Again if they're tooling up for a socket or wrench that lists for 4x the price as the ones made previously I would not be surprised if they go the extra mile like they claim they do.
TwoInch, your hearsay is not better than the hearsay from their marketing department. The wrenches do have different tensile strengths and surface hardness, its not out of this world to think the sockets do to. I asked in the other thread if anyone wanted to split the cost of sacrificing a few Williams sockets to a member who offered to test them. No one took me up on it. For someone so vocal about it you sure aren't in any hurry to actually prove your claims of "********". Your argument seems to start and end at 'because they look the same they must be the same'.
superautobacs its ironic seeing you side with that argument considering your one man marketing campaign of Japanese tools, Nepros in particular, which is made under the exact same roof as KTC. You believe they go the extra mile for Nepros but don't think Snap-On is capable of similar manufacturing feats?
To add to that how come you don't see the point in Snap-On going the extra mile on small details like the broach alignment of the box end of a wrench, when small details like that is what Nepros is all about. If KTC had this same demonstration setup in their museum of Nepros wrenches we probably could of read a nice paragraph or two from you about how incredible the attention to detail was...Snap-On has one and you call it "meaningless". Kind of funny don't you think?
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SlappyWhite
Well-known member
So, next step is some sort of socket test, failure torque, maybe hardness. That will end the debate.
My guess the ones coming from the same factory will test the same, simply because it would cost more to make them different.
So can anyone give it a try?
My guess the ones coming from the same factory will test the same, simply because it would cost more to make them different.
So can anyone give it a try?
superautobacs
Well-known member
In hindsight, meaningless wasn’t the right word. As you say, Snap-on does take the care and attention to ensure that the broaching alignment is consistent—and that is evident and meaningful.
My reasoning behind that statement was because there was no explanation of whether the wrenches shown in the display are all 12pt or could there have been 6pts mixed in? We know that the front row of wrenches are SO and Williams at the back. The rest in between are unknown. Are they displaying a single wrench from a variety of brands or did they sample a couple/few from one or two brands? Did they throw in a mix of 12-pt, 6-pt or even a spline drive wrench in the mix? Add to that, the angle which this photo was taken isn’t the best as you can’t make out the differing angles very clearly. With the lack of such information and images, I wasn’t really sure what to make out it, and hence, the word “meaningless”. Sorry, I wasn't clear enough in my original post.
Hey everyone. I started this thread with the hope that folks looking to buy sockets would have some more information in order to make an informed decision. It was not to question the validity of any pricing structure or of the value those tools in that pricing structure provide. I believe good tools are good tools. I still believe that Snap-On makes some of the best hand tools in the world. After handling and comparing the sockets from both lines I have to say... Williams USA, in my opinion, also build some of the finest sockets available.
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If someone here has the ability to test these against other brands I'll kick in the 17mm and 8mm I bought to compare against my Snap-On stuff. They are sorta orphans so what the heck. I'm not offering up my Snap-On sockets though. Maybe we can get a few others to kick in a few other brands and we can do a more broad comparison?
This all depends on someone having the ability to do the tests. Anybody?
This all depends on someone having the ability to do the tests. Anybody?
You've been around enough to know these guys would argue about being hung with a new rope. Its fn pathedic sometimes and a major turn off sharing a idea or showing a project that's "out of the box". And exactly why I don't show anything I build. Your evaluation in my opinion is real world based as you are actually using both. I doubt most of the guys arguing the point even turn wrenches. Myself, I say thank you.
retDAC
Well-known member
I read all of the above and this explanation at post #15 makes the most sense to me. After all it would be a selling point to state the only difference is markings and chrome. Whereas admitting some non-cosmetic differences is risking some customers being turned off.
Has anyone examined in detail the exact processes/steps in the manufacture of hand sockets under each brand, especially with regard to cost for each step? Including for example, whether the exact same broaches are used, how carefully they are gauged, and frequency of replacement?
When thousands upon thousands of the same item are being made, what might seen by the casual observer as steps not worth noticing/mentioning, would be considered serious costs by the maker.
Williams' main customers are reportedly industrial who furnish tools to their hourly wage earner employees with understandably less consideration for time spent per job as compared to cost of tools.
Snap-on's main customers are individuals paying for their tools themselves and dearly depending on each tool not to break/wear easily in order to "beat the book" or at least not take too much longer. Especially for those frequently working with overtorqued/corroded/soft/worn fasteners, fitment and temper are far more important. They also have more incentive to avoid losing tools.
I am only an occasional DIYer but I "get the big picture". More accurately 'pictures'. Not a fan either, having few pieces of either brand.
I believe if both S-o and Williams sockets and wrenches were carefully measured, S-o would generally be closer to the low end of the standards range for wrench openings.
In other words, I expect Snap-on sockets are better if only by a little. Whether that 'little' matters to you is up to you.
woody 73
Well-known member
Ned Nortan Good post I learned some things about Williams sockets Today. Although I don't get smart out of all the replies I for one would like to try a few of their sockets.
Woody
Woody
cgv69
Well-known member
That has not been my experience so far but I will admit I haven't used my Kobolts near as much as I have other brands.If you want an even better deal and the convenience of local shopping, Lowe's Kobolt sockets are a great deal IMO. They are not made in the USA and their selection is limited but they are very good quality sockets that are dirt cheap when you find them on sale.
They look good and seem like they are good quality as well. The problem I have with the new Kobalt sockets are that they fit the nut/bolt absolutely terrible. I compared them to all of the other socket brands I have and they fit the worst by a long shot.
OP thanks for the info on the williams sockets.
It's pretty hard to reconcile TD's claims when in this very thread we have SxS shots of Williams and SO sockets and I for one am not seeing any major difference in finishing or chrome quality between the 2?
Either way, lets just agree for a moment that there are some minor differences between them. OK but I think the real questions is, are those difference worth 3-4 times the cost? Maybe (but I still doubt it) for the most ********* pro but for the rest of us, not even close IMO.
I spent a few years working for Halliburton, based in an ExxonMobil refinery. The ExxonMobil guys used US-made JH Williams stuff almost exclusively (I think the company bought them) and weren't shy about beating on it. Looked like it got the job done. I never saw anything break on a big or little job, even with guys regularly jumping up and down on cheater bars to open up a heat exchanger bigger than my truck.
Assuming no huge quality dropoff between then and now, the US-made Williams is going to hold up just fine to anything a home or shop mechanic is going to throw at it, so there shouldn't be any arguments about quality or tools breaking in the middle of a job any more than any other brand. Anyone who tries to claim that Williams is some lesser line only good for a home user...well, they're uninformed. The hardness and precision of Williams stuff are well beyond adequate.
That being said, if you want your stuff to look a lot nicer and have higher resale value, Snap-On is obviously the better buy.
Assuming no huge quality dropoff between then and now, the US-made Williams is going to hold up just fine to anything a home or shop mechanic is going to throw at it, so there shouldn't be any arguments about quality or tools breaking in the middle of a job any more than any other brand. Anyone who tries to claim that Williams is some lesser line only good for a home user...well, they're uninformed. The hardness and precision of Williams stuff are well beyond adequate.
That being said, if you want your stuff to look a lot nicer and have higher resale value, Snap-On is obviously the better buy.
Yes.
Taiwan = All Numbers (example)
USA = Letters & Numbers (example)
FWIW, the dimensional specs on the Taiwanese made sockets are the same as the US versions. Not sure on metallurgy, but I suspect it's fine.
Snap-on's in the process of shifting the manufacturing for Williams from what I can tell (if they haven't finished it already), so I expect the US stuff is likely just remaining stock on warehouse shelves that hasn't sold yet.
TwoInch
Well-known member
their marketing department? when did we hear from them? those dealers contradict each others hearsay from a williams guy... my argument is not that because they look the same, they are the same. my argument is that it makes zero sense for a company to purposefully heat treat an industrial socket to a lesser grade than another made on the same lines, and heat treated in the same baskets. first it was the finish was lesser, which is not true. then the specs, nope. then its something that cant be tested by your average guy on GJ, the heat treatment.
i also have access to full lab with any and every sort of metallurgy testing equipment in a cold/hot bar mill QC department, that potentially could be supplying some of the large tool companies with the raw USA bars being made into wrenches, sockets, and other tools.. i could potentially have a few tested also.
i would want the two samples to be of the same recent vintage. also a couple sockets from each line, to check them between themselves, get a small sample size and get a range of numbers for each. one to one will prove nothing.
even if the hardness was a couple points different, i cant imagine how anyone would be able to say that somehow changes a sockets price from 5 bucks to 25 bucks each. or how someone would be able to claim that williams sockets or wrenches are less durable than snap on, in anyway.
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HighPlainsWrencher
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2013
- Messages
- 218
After seven years of using both Snap On and Williams sockets I have no idea what the difference is other than the obvious which is appearance and price. I have no complaints about soft metal or loose tolerances nor have I heard of any complaints. I can tell you I've warrantied more Snap On than Williams but I also have more Snap On than Williams. They are a damn good tool for a fair price. This isn't just my experience either it goes for the whole shop as there is quite a bit of Williams tools, especially sockets.
I don't know why you guys have a hard time believing that the regular Snap on line can be made better even though Williams is made on the same line if you want proof just look at a Par X wrench and a snap on of the same vintage next to each other and its obvious that Snap on is no stranger to running multiple brands on the same line and ending up with two different quality levels. If you want further proof check out Caterpillar/Snap on made tools which consisted of a higher end full polish wrench and a lower end satin finish which were also shorter wrenches. But yet both were made on the same line. Seriously though just think about it a base model Ferrari is made on the same line as a high end Ferrari model. It just comes down to details in the end.
Sent directly from the Snap On Kool Aid factory.
Sent directly from the Snap On Kool Aid factory.
genevabuck
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2012
- Messages
- 227
I believe that Snap On sockets are slightly better. The question for me is it worth 4x the price. Especially when I rarely break one and lose them constantly. I will be honest, I have every brand of tool. I have never had a Snap On socket work better than say an older Craftsman or NAPA one. They both take the bolt off.
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade in regards to acquiring some "hardness" test results as I enjoy comparison results as much as the next guy, But... I'm fairly certain that we aren't looking for our tools to Be extremely hard or they would be snapping left and right. Im just guessing but I suspect there is a fine line between being too soft versus hard and most of your manufacturers have figured out the heat/cool cycles required to produce a tool that gives good performance.
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It's a logical conclusion I came to based on looking at what's more available in both the Williams catalog (socket offerings in 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2"; I don't need anything bigger) as well as online sites to purchase them from.
Another indication was in talking with a retailer that said their USA made tools were NOS, not current production.
Take a look at Amazon for example (searches):
1/4" socket set
3/8" socket set
1/2" socket set
Yes, there are still some USA items if you look through all of the pages, but I noticed that there were more Taiwanese made products. And this number has seemed to increase over time IIRC.
Seen this type of switching before (and been involved in it). It takes time, and the manufacturer may not admit it until it's done, as profits tend to be their ultimate guiding factor (might make a profit in the US, but if the profit will increase due to foreign manufacture, especially when it's a substantial increase, is an extremely tempting thing to resist from what I've seen).
As per customers wanting US made, that's fine (I'm one of them). But if it's not profitable enough to them, manufacturers will shift production elsewhere.
Even the US government will purchase foreign made products, including tools. Example's I'm directly familiar with, would be wire crimping tools from companies such as Thomas&Betts, Panduit, Tyco/AMP, and Molex (ODM's of their crimp tools are located in Sweden & Germany, as they make their terminals, but not the tools).