Snap on Apollo D8 And Solus Edge

[Brick Axelrod]

Hi all. I’m looking for someone who has or has used the new Apollo D8 scanner. I have a Solus Edge and wanted to know how the Apollo is compared to it? I can’t seem to find much online about the Apollo aside from the introduction video and a few other things. I know it has the 1 button troubleshooting and can find TSB’s. Any info would be appreciated, I’ve been on the fence for a new unit.

Brick

 

[lugnut71]

i am curious also about the apollo

 

[2ndGearRubber]

My dealer had the new scanners on his truck this week. He showed me the 2 channel version (triton?).


My understanding is - all new models share the same diagnostic software, same deal as the old stuff. Solus/modis/verus could all do the same stuff, bi-bidirectionally and with data. Ethos? The bottom line missed sure track or trouble shooter IIRC. Same deal for new stuff, apollo/triton/zeus all do the same tests and have access to the same info.

I was told the software itself, has no changes in functionality. So a solus and a apollo can do the same tests and get the same data. The new gen adds - quick LOF and wheel torque specs, no engine torque specs or drive-line. It also has built in TSBs, and the sure track and trouble shooter as years past.

The extra RECURRING PAID SUBSCRIPTION features like "intelligent design" and the cloud stuff is new as well. You will need to pay yearly to keep these current, I was quoted an additional $500-ish, plus the $750 or whatever per-year cost for regular software updates. My understanding is if you do not renew the subscription, you lose access to the cloud stuff, possibly intelligent diagnostics too. So unless you pay double updates/subscriptions, you don't get to keep the full tool function. Snap on claims "high speed" lab scope for the new zeus, and the oldest verus I could find on the website. No specs, I would imagine the scopes have not been upgraded significantly, or they would be touting it.




Boot time seems pretty good. Comparing against the old stuff, I was personally underwhelmed. He also stated he was unaware that any solution had been found to the FCA secure gateway module. I'm not paying that kind of money, and still being blocked by the SGM. When my Gen 1 modis dies, I expect I'll go pico-scope. Hopefully by then snap-on will have a work around for the SGM, and I'll buy the cheapest basic version I can get, and never update it until it dies. The autel may be due for replacement by then, but I don't see myself quitting autel. Too good of coverage and capability for the price.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Basically - solus to apollo gets you the new intelligent diagnostics, and the cloud based identifix type service. If you do not keep the subscription for those services current, it will revert into a solus.

I personally have not found the intelligent diagnostics all that impressive. I have only seen videos and demo modes of the feature.

 

[Tallpilot]

My dealer had the new scanners on his truck this week. He showed me the 2 channel version (triton?).


My understanding is - all new models share the same diagnostic software, same deal as the old stuff. Solus/modis/verus could all do the same stuff, bi-bidirectionally and with data. Ethos? The bottom line missed sure track or trouble shooter IIRC. Same deal for new stuff, apollo/triton/zeus all do the same tests and have access to the same info.

I was told the software itself, has no changes in functionality. So a solus and a apollo can do the same tests and get the same data. The new gen adds - quick LOF and wheel torque specs, no engine torque specs or drive-line. It also has built in TSBs, and the sure track and trouble shooter as years past.

The extra RECURRING PAID SUBSCRIPTION features like "intelligent design" and the cloud stuff is new as well. You will need to pay yearly to keep these current, I was quoted an additional $500-ish, plus the $750 or whatever per-year cost for regular software updates. My understanding is if you do not renew the subscription, you lose access to the cloud stuff, possibly intelligent diagnostics too. So unless you pay double updates/subscriptions, you don't get to keep the full tool function. Snap on claims "high speed" lab scope for the new zeus, and the oldest verus I could find on the website. No specs, I would imagine the scopes have not been upgraded significantly, or they would be touting it.




Boot time seems pretty good. Comparing against the old stuff, I was personally underwhelmed. He also stated he was unaware that any solution had been found to the FCA secure gateway module. I'm not paying that kind of money, and still being blocked by the SGM. When my Gen 1 modis dies, I expect I'll go pico-scope. Hopefully by then snap-on will have a work around for the SGM, and I'll buy the cheapest basic version I can get, and never update it until it dies. The autel may be due for replacement by then, but I don't see myself quitting autel. Too good of coverage and capability for the price.

That’s unfortunate to hear. I don’t want to replace my Ethos Tech until something that can deal with the secure gateway comes out. Don’t we have 3 wire CAN or something also coming down the line? I think I might just get a CARDAQ-3.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Autel has a bypass cable to fool both sides of the network into talking to each other. I plan to buy one of those as the FCA stuff with it comes into the aftermarket world. It's one thing if toyota did it, but the FCA stuff is so crappy, you gotta have a way to work on them.

 

[joel63]

My dealer had the new scanners on his truck this week. He showed me the 2 channel version (triton?).


My understanding is - all new models share the same diagnostic software, same deal as the old stuff. Solus/modis/verus could all do the same stuff, bi-bidirectionally and with data. Ethos? The bottom line missed sure track or trouble shooter IIRC. Same deal for new stuff, apollo/triton/zeus all do the same tests and have access to the same info.

I was told the software itself, has no changes in functionality. So a solus and a apollo can do the same tests and get the same data. The new gen adds - quick LOF and wheel torque specs, no engine torque specs or drive-line. It also has built in TSBs, and the sure track and trouble shooter as years past.

The extra RECURRING PAID SUBSCRIPTION features like "intelligent design" and the cloud stuff is new as well. You will need to pay yearly to keep these current, I was quoted an additional $500-ish, plus the $750 or whatever per-year cost for regular software updates. My understanding is if you do not renew the subscription, you lose access to the cloud stuff, possibly intelligent diagnostics too. So unless you pay double updates/subscriptions, you don't get to keep the full tool function. Snap on claims "high speed" lab scope for the new zeus, and the oldest verus I could find on the website. No specs, I would imagine the scopes have not been upgraded significantly, or they would be touting it.




Boot time seems pretty good. Comparing against the old stuff, I was personally underwhelmed. He also stated he was unaware that any solution had been found to the FCA secure gateway module. I'm not paying that kind of money, and still being blocked by the SGM. When my Gen 1 modis dies, I expect I'll go pico-scope. Hopefully by then snap-on will have a work around for the SGM, and I'll buy the cheapest basic version I can get, and never update it until it dies. The autel may be due for replacement by then, but I don't see myself quitting autel. Too good of coverage and capability for the price.

I was told by Jason Gabrenas at a Intelligent Diagnostics workshop last week that the FCA secure gateway access has to be subscribed from directly from FCA.

This is the latest way to squeeze more $$$$ from the aftermarket independent repair sector. You can get codes, but will be all you can do.

One more reason (imo) to hope FCA crashes.

 

[Tallpilot]

I was told by Jason Gabrenas at a Intelligent Diagnostics workshop last week that the FCA secure gateway access has to be subscribed from directly from FCA.

This is the latest way to squeeze more $$$$ from the aftermarket independent repair sector. You can get codes, but will be all you can do.

One more reason (imo) to hope FCA crashes.

That's correct. What we want is Snap-on to pay them a bunch of money for access. They are charging us $1,000+/year for updates and that sum again for repair data. They need to work out a deal with FCA. It would be a good exclusive feature for them. Maybe we need to buy a new VCI cable but that's fine.

My worry is that other manufacturers are going to follow this road.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

You can "clear" codes, by running the related code-set criteria, and the light should go out. Nobody is paying for that at a shop though. Bi directionals don't work, but I bypass most of that stuff anyways for normal sensors/switches. I plan to by the Autel by-pass cable when I update. Not all of them are hidden behind the radio.


I'm aware that FCA needs an internet connection to the main server to bypass the SGM. That's the kind of stuff I pay a premium for, via snap on. Figure it out guys, that zeus is 20K? Not my problem, YOU (snap on) figure it out. That's why I'm supposed to pay those prices, guided component test, troubleshooter, oil-resets, etc. I certainly won't be buying a snap-on unit, not a new one anyhow.




Joel - Intelligent diagnostics workshop? As in using/maximizing the snap-on program? Care to go into more details? What are your opinions after using it?

 

[GypsyR]

As far as I know the Apollo is simply a Solus Edge in a slightly redesigned case but with the added non-intelligent diagnostics. Should you choose to subscribe to that.
The Zeus IS a rebadged Verus Edge. Period. The exact same hardware, we have one of each and I had some free time with "speccy" one day. Currently my Edge outruns the shop Zeus because I upgraded my memory and hard drive. Plus a couple other tweaks. The only difference is that a Zeus comes with a smaller DLC fob, which is nice.
All that said, for most guys in the shop our Solus Edge is the go-to. Quicker and easier, no extra diagnostics. We don't find the diagnostics "intelligent". Most transmission problems result in either no help or "replace transmission". Most of the time the odd codes you've never seen before have zero help. Tons of help when you don't need it, like your thousandth "O2 sensor lean code", stuff like that.

The TSB thing is kind of nice but not terribly reliable. It saves stepping over to a laptop and checking for TSB's manually I suppose. Not a feature I would bother to pay extra for myself.

What the Solus Edge and Verus Edge have in common is that I would pay one nickel to "upgrade" either to the newer current offerings.

 

[joel63]

That's correct. What we want is Snap-on to pay them a bunch of money for access. They are charging us $1,000+/year for updates and that sum again for repair data. They need to work out a deal with FCA. It would be a good exclusive feature for them. Maybe we need to buy a new VCI cable but that's fine.

My worry is that other manufacturers are going to follow this road.

That was my first concern when I heard that.

Just another revenue stream for them.

 

[joel63]

You can "clear" codes, by running the related code-set criteria, and the light should go out. Nobody is paying for that at a shop though. Bi directionals don't work, but I bypass most of that stuff anyways for normal sensors/switches. I plan to by the Autel by-pass cable when I update. Not all of them are hidden behind the radio.



Joel - Intelligent diagnostics workshop? As in using/maximizing the snap-on program? Care to go into more details? What are your opinions after using it?

As you know Snap on is pushing Intelligent Diagnostics for the past 2 years,

evidenced by them coming out with the Apollo and the Trident.

I am not a professional, so I really can't you a professional tech's opinion about it. There were about 25 techs from independent shops in attendance.
Jason ran through a case study that was done at a repair shop.
That was followed by running through the demo mode on the Zeus with a hands-on session (he also covered I D on the Apollo and Trident.)

I Started off with the "Brick" then moved on to a Modis, then the Verus Pro and now the Zeus.

I've heard good and bad things about the Zeus and I D.
I think its ultimate value lies with the experience level of the tech.

There's a lot of of intro videos on the Snap on Diagnostics web site.

He also gave a run down on ADAS which be a real can of worms.

 

[MattT]

I'm aware that FCA needs an internet connection to the main server to bypass the SGM. That's the kind of stuff I pay a premium for, via snap on. Figure it out guys, that zeus is 20K? Not my problem, YOU (snap on) figure it out. That's why I'm supposed to pay those prices, guided component test, troubleshooter, oil-resets, etc. I certainly won't be buying a snap-on unit, not a new one anyhow.

Looks like the fix is in for secure gateway access. No surprise there.

https://www.aftermarketnews.com/sna...les-for-secure-vehicle-gateway-module-access/

I'm more concerned about the internet connection requirement personally. That will be a major PITA if the shops internet is down. Or FCAs, or Snap-ons, servers are down. And will the scan tool still work on a road test?

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Looks like the fix is in for secure gateway access. No surprise there.

https://www.aftermarketnews.com/sna...les-for-secure-vehicle-gateway-module-access/

I'm more concerned about the internet connection requirement personally. That will be a major PITA if the shops internet is down. Or FCAs, or Snap-ons, servers are down. And will the scan tool still work on a road test?

My understanding is you receive an authentication approval, and you're in. One "good to go" signal, and the scanner is done with internet requirements. Shop internet could be bypassed via hot-spot on a cell phone. If you have unlimited data I suppose.


If Snap-on does have a fix, especially if I can buy a used solus with current software to achieve it, I'm interested. I'll ask my dealer about it next week. Thank you for posting this.

 

[drewvdw]

My 2 cents on the security gateway, it would be very easy to bypass it by hardwiring into either/both of the star connectors on those vehicles. It eliminates communication going through the SGM. Most of those star connectors are easy to access as well. Typically under the dash on passenger side. SO or other manufacturers could easily sell or provide an additional cable to plug in to those star connectors and voila, no more SGW.

 

[MattT]

My understanding is you receive an authentication approval, and you're in. One "good to go" signal, and the scanner is done with internet requirements.

That isn't how the chrysler tools work according to this link.

https://www.searchautoparts.com/mot...ense-chryslers-secure-gateway-module?page=0,0

From the top of page two............

With both of these systems an internet connection must be available at all times including during test drives.

Shop internet could be bypassed via hot-spot on a cell phone. If you have unlimited data I suppose.

Yeah that's an even more money solution if you're in an area with good cell service. Probably not an issue in the 'burgh but one of the shops around here is several miles away from useable cellular data coverage.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

That isn't how the chrysler tools work according to this link.

https://www.searchautoparts.com/mot...ense-chryslers-secure-gateway-module?page=0,0

From the top of page two............

During test drives?




Since this has become the default SGM thread -


https://www.americankeysupply.com/product/chrysler-dodge-jeep-2018-universal-programming-cable-9504

https://www.americankeysupply.com/p...tics-adc2011-chrysler-cable-for-smartpro-9144


These bypass OBDII all together, and put the connection on the OTHER side of the SGM. Find the star module, or really anything on the protected side of the CAN system, plug in and go to town. These are for programing only, at least how they are advertised.

Long back-probes between the CAN and scan tool could achieve the same thing for testing. Not elegant or easy, but it seems worth a try.



I'll look for test car.

 

[MattT]

These bypass OBDII all together, and put the connection on the OTHER side of the SGM. Find the star module, or really anything on the protected side of the CAN system, plug in and go to town. These are for programing only, at least how they are advertised.

The first one you linked only has a 1 pair connection. Found this one with 2 pairs so guessing they're required for full functionality. And it's designed to add a 2nd OBD-II port in the trunk which could make things interesting.................

https://www.zautomotive.com/product/double-bypass/

Same outfit also makes this SGM bypass. I wonder how a SGM compatible scan tool will react on a vehicle with one of these installed?

https://www.zautomotive.com/product/bypass-module/

 

[Tallpilot]

Looks like the fix is in for secure gateway access. No surprise there.

https://www.aftermarketnews.com/sna...les-for-secure-vehicle-gateway-module-access/

I'm more concerned about the internet connection requirement personally. That will be a major PITA if the shops internet is down. Or FCAs, or Snap-ons, servers are down. And will the scan tool still work on a road test?

Good news. Snap-on needed to do something to compete with the Chinese clones/IP thieves who were quite frankly eating their lunch on both capability and price.

My understanding is you receive an authentication approval, and you're in. One "good to go" signal, and the scanner is done with internet requirements. Shop internet could be bypassed via hot-spot on a cell phone. If you have unlimited data I suppose.


If Snap-on does have a fix, especially if I can buy a used solus with current software to achieve it, I'm interested. I'll ask my dealer about it next week. Thank you for posting this.

I feel the same way. I’m ok if I need a new enough scanner that it has wi-fi and I would buy a new VCI but I’m not ‘upgrading’ to the Apollo line. Making the old stuff obsolete every few years is what Bosch and OTC do. That doesn’t fly with me on tools that list for $4-20k.

The article didn’t seem to indicate if this capability will make it into 19.4 or if it will be next April for older tools. My fear is it will be another $3k+ tool they expect you to buy then also pay a subscription fee to use.

At that point it just makes sense to use J2534 pass through and just pay the manufacturers extortion instead of Snap-on.

 

[drewvdw]

The first one you linked only has a 1 pair connection. Found this one with 2 pairs so guessing they're required for full functionality. And it's designed to add a 2nd OBD-II port in the trunk which could make things interesting.................

https://www.zautomotive.com/product/double-bypass/

Same outfit also makes this SGM bypass. I wonder how a SGM compatible scan tool will react on a vehicle with one of these installed?

https://www.zautomotive.com/product/bypass-module/

Yeah, 2 sets would be necessary because theres 2 CAN buses. Can C which has PCM, TCM, ABS, and other modules, and CAN IHS which has airbag (ORC), steering column, HVAC, radio, and others. You'll need both to make full use of BCM as well.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

The first one you linked only has a 1 pair connection. Found this one with 2 pairs so guessing they're required for full functionality. And it's designed to add a 2nd OBD-II port in the trunk which could make things interesting.................

https://www.zautomotive.com/product/double-bypass/

Same outfit also makes this SGM bypass. I wonder how a SGM compatible scan tool will react on a vehicle with one of these installed?

https://www.zautomotive.com/product/bypass-module/

I would imagine the by-pass is just a loop to take SGM out of the picture. That's basically how the Autel cable works. I'm just trying to avoid pulling radios.

Double by-pass cable looks to be just an OBDII break out, power/ground, and both can lines. I'd be tempted to cut off the power/ground leads, add banana jacks so I can feed power via the cigarette lighter or wherever is convenient.


This may be the best option I've seen yet. Although it would take some poking around and note-taking to find the best places to tap in on all the FCA models.

I feel the same way. I’m ok if I need a new enough scanner that it has wi-fi and I would buy a new VCI but I’m not ‘upgrading’ to the Apollo line. Making the old stuff obsolete every few years is what Bosch and OTC do. That doesn’t fly with me on tools that list for $4-20k.

The article didn’t seem to indicate if this capability will make it into 19.4 or if it will be next April for older tools. My fear is it will be another $3k+ tool they expect you to buy then also pay a subscription fee to use.

At that point it just makes sense to use J2534 pass through and just pay the manufacturers extortion instead of Snap-on.

My gut tells me, snap-on will only be allowing this for the newest line. Hopefully I will be incorrect. Like you, I refuse to pay for tools which have limited functionality without updates/subscriptions. I already supply all the scanners, scope stuff, specialty tools - I'm drawing a line in the sand with the SGM stuff. If a good work around can't be found, I don't work on Chrysler anymore.

The big question is, will the updated snap-on stuff with 19.4 or whatever, communicate via one of these by-pass cables? Or just say "pay-up" when I go to auto ID?

Yeah, 2 sets would be necessary because theres 2 CAN buses. Can C which has PCM, TCM, ABS, and other modules, and CAN IHS which has airbag (ORC), steering column, HVAC, radio, and others. You'll need both to make full use of BCM as well.

To do singular testing though, say just basic check engine lights/ABS/trans codes, would you even have a need to plug into IHS? Yes, you'd miss out on BCM functionality, but I can live without the other modules or tap into the IHS when needed for those specific modules. Or just buy the correct cable with both ends on it.

 

[drewvdw]

To do singular testing though, say just basic check engine lights/ABS/trans codes, would you even have a need to plug into IHS? Yes, you'd miss out on BCM functionality, but I can live without the other modules or tap into the IHS when needed for those specific modules. Or just buy the correct cable with both ends on it.

Simply checking codes is permissible through the SGW module. Running actuators and performance tests and possibly reading data parameters (ie. RPM) isn't passed through the SGW without "the big Mopar in the sky" giving the ok.

So yes, tapping into the CAN C bus will allow you to do all of those things on that bus only.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

https://www.snapon.com/gateway


$50 per year. Needs to be a modis ultra or above generations, with available wi-fi. That, I may be able to stomach.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Simply checking codes is permissible through the SGW module. Running actuators and performance tests and possibly reading data parameters (ie. RPM) isn't passed through the SGW without "the big Mopar in the sky" giving the ok.

So yes, tapping into the CAN C bus will allow you to do all of those things on that bus only.

I've never found to be limited on data, just actuator tests have no function - that and some modules aren't picked up via system scan.

 

[drewvdw]

I've never found to be limited on data, just actuator tests have no function - that and some modules aren't picked up via system scan.

Ok, I wasn't sure on that. It isn't required by law for aftermarket code readers to be able to read data if I remember correctly.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Going over the specs of the modis vs trident - it's the same tool but modis can't to the intelligent diag stuff. My Gen 1 modis with no euro scan ability, has euro guided component tester; hopefully that has been retained.



https://www.obdadvisor.com/snap-on-modis-review/

Modis Ultra was released with 15.4, 2016 model year cars. That will soon be 4 years out of date. I fear the Modis Ultra doesn't have a lot of time left before support is cut.


https://www.ratchetandwrench.com/articles/1752-snap-on-releases-modis-edge

Modis edge would have been released with 16.4, 2017 model year.



19.4 should cover 2020 model year releases. Between updating 19.2, cost of a used modis, and shrinking window of support - Trident may be worth getting a price quote on. I could save money with a solus/apollo, but I loose the guided component tester when the modis dies. It's a great asset for >15yo stuff with crappy service info and degraded wire colors. It's a faster setup IMO than a pico/laptop would be, and is grab/go portable. So I have a very hard time giving it up. On the other hand, how many of those cars are left? I could pick up a solus edge, keep it current, and buy another gen-1 modis if mine dies for old stuff coverage via component tester. I'm not sure I could give up my grab-and-go scope.