Snap On Ferret evolution.

[ganymede]

Just picked up a F-710-A ratchet.
My last pear head Snap On was an old F70. It's been a while since I've seen it or any other but I could swear that it was much smaller. This 710 feels huge. Is it just me or were the F70 ratchets from the 40's more 'Ferretish' ?
Also does anyone have a rebuild kit for this thing (rkra 380) ?

 

[rusty65]

I think they still make those repair kits? I ordered a lever for one about a month ago.

 

[tjmonsen5]

RKRA380 is the repair kit, available from snapon.

 

[ganymede]

Yes they still make them (for now ) but Snap On stupidly, only accepts credit or debit card not postal money order . At least that's what the guy on the phone said.

 

[Modifieddriver]

Yes they still make them (for now ) but Snap On stupidly, only accepts credit or debit card not postal money order . At least that's what the guy on the phone said.

Welcome to the 21st century. I hate it too, but a credit/debit card is almost a necessity today. Hell, I found out back in 1972 that I couldn't rent a car without one.

 

[Bjkearns]

How the hell do you function here in 2013 and not have plastic currency?

 

[Dave455]

I can help with a bit of history here!

The earliest (of the modern style) socket spanners were first introduced just after the first world war. Britool in the U.K. used a 7/16 hex drive, whereas in the U.S.A. 1/2 inch square drive was standard (Blackhawk seemed to be the major player). As both styles were being used on similar size nuts there wasn't a lot to choose between them size wise!

In the U.S.A. 3/8 drive was introduced specifically to get into awkward places, hence "ferret" and it was generally much smaller than the British 3/8 drive which was derived from the 7/16 hex drive!

Over the years it wouldn't surprise me if the U.S. 3/8 drive has grown a bit, especially as most people use it as their first choice!

Got told all that stuff by Grandfather years ago - despite being a Brit he LOVED American tools. I suspect he paid serious money for all that Blackhawk in the 1930's! Mind you, as it's still going strong after 70 plus years it's not looking like such a bad deal!!

 

[ganymede]

Welcome to the 21st century. I hate it too, but a credit/debit card is almost a necessity today. Hell, I found out back in 1972 that I couldn't rent a car without one.

How the hell do you function here in 2013 and not have plastic currency?

Yea it ***** but it just can't see the logic in having to spend money so that I can spend money. I'll hold out as long as I can and I pay for everything with cash or money order.

I can help with a bit of history here!

The earliest (of the modern style) socket spanners were first introduced just after the first world war. Britool in the U.K. used a 7/16 hex drive, whereas in the U.S.A. 1/2 inch square drive was standard (Blackhawk seemed to be the major player). As both styles were being used on similar size nuts there wasn't a lot to choose between them size wise!

In the U.S.A. 3/8 drive was introduced specifically to get into awkward places, hence "ferret" and it was generally much smaller than the British 3/8 drive which was derived from the 7/16 hex drive!

Over the years it wouldn't surprise me if the U.S. 3/8 drive has grown a bit, especially as most people use it as their first choice!

Got told all that stuff by Grandfather years ago - despite being a Brit he LOVED American tools. I suspect he paid serious money for all that Blackhawk in the 1930's! Mind you, as it's still going strong after 70 plus years it's not looking like such a bad deal!!

Thank you for that story. High praise from your grandfather especially since Britain made good tools too. A machinist/craftsman hero of mine said that he felt Moore & Wright micrometers were "every bit as good as Brown & Sharpe" .

 

[Dave455]

Few Brown and Sharpe tools made it to the U.K, but from the few I've seen I'd agree! Moore and Wright made superb instruments, and still do to an extent, but they don't offer the range they used to (or, some would say, the quality)!

Unsurprisingly, Grandfather preferred Starrett, and I think he was working his way through the catalogue! I still have most of them! Starrett generally seem to have maintained their quality over the years, so they were my choice when I started to buy some metric micrometers. I wasn't disappointed. Despite being generally a U.S.A. manufacturer, Starrett don't seem to generate much interest in these forums. A bit specialised I suppose!

The pre war Blackhawk tools were simply superb. Many features they offered, such as speeders with a rotating handle for each hand, extended T handles and toothless ratchets are rarely available even now, if at all!

Mind you, we're Grandfather still alive he'd just love that Snap On truck!!!

 

[ganymede]

Sounds like M&R evolved the same way B&S had. The same machinist friend did not think highly of anything they (b&s) had made for the last decade or so ( this was in 2004) . He respected the older stuff though and he also liked to collect Starrett. He tried to get me into collecting Starrett too but I was too hung up on B&S .

Anyway if someone has a 40's era F70n and feels like measuring the handle, and body thickness, head width and overall length please do.

 

[B17E1943]

How about some photos of your grandfather's Blackhawk tools, Dave?

 

[ganymede]

Nobody wants to dig out an old f70n and measure it for me ?
I feel so rejected.








Torrents of tears flash rusting my bench vise here. !

 

[CRTDI]

How about some photos of your grandfather's Blackhawk tools, Dave?

X2....

 

[fourtythree]

Nobody wants to dig out an old f70n and measure it for me ?
I feel so rejected.








Torrents of tears flash rusting my bench vise here. !

6 7/8" long and 1" wide at the head.

 

[ganymede]

Ah I knew it.
This f710a is almost 7 1/2 long and it's 1 1/8 wide at the head.
I've gotta get myself an older model then.
Thank you fourtythree !

 

[north]

Here ya go. 6-7/8" long and 1-1/16" across the head.

Edit: Man, I'm slow tonight.

 

[Dave455]

I'll take and post some Blackhawk pics this weekend!

 

[ganymede]

Here ya go. 6-7/8" long and 1-1/16" across the head.

Edit: Man, I'm slow tonight.

I like the feel of the handle on the older ones too.
Thanks again .

 

[Dave455]

As requested, some pics of some 1930's vintage Blackhawk!

The sockets are superb! Heavier construction than todays, finished in bright chrome on the lower part, satin on the top. Really durable too - these were used all day every day for probably 30 years, and regular use since then!

When you put a socket on a handle or extension, the sprung ball pushes out a button on the socket, locking it into place. Push the button to remove. I believe this was unique to Blackhawk, and works really well!

Blackhawk tools were really innovative for their time, but most importantly, appeared to be manufactured without any shortcuts whatsoever! Note how the Speeder has spinning handles for both hands, the Sliding T has a cutout so the handle becomes flush with the head in use, and how many of the parts incorporate a hole to allow a tommy bar to be fitted. The handle of the Breaker Bar is hollow to allow any bit of half inch ground stock to be inserted for extra leverage!

What's harder to see is the awesome quality of these tools! Despite many decades of use, the sockets have suffered no deformation, or even rounding of the points. None of the handles have bent or broken in any way, and even the chrome remains good!

 

[CRTDI]

Dave, thanks for sharing these with us. Those are some really nice 1/2" drive pieces. They really look very well cared for. If you're interested, you can see a bit more old Blackhawk goodness here:

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127364&highlight=vintage+blackhawk

And probably more info here than you'll ever want to know:

http://home.comcast.net/~alloy-artifacts/blackhawk-innovation.html

 

[Dave455]

Thanks for sharing those links CRTDI, that was really interesting! Although Blackhawk tools were imported into the U.K. not much was ever really known about them here. The tools pictured have been used, but not abused! Proof that good tools don't get damaged by use!

My Grandfather bought them from his friend Stan Lee who ran a tool shop in north London, for no reason other than he thought they were the best there! It was all bought 'piece by piece' rather than as a set, though he ended up with a complete set of Whitworth sockets from 1/8 to 7/8 (bolt size not a/f size), including two each of the popular sizes and loads of handles! I still have all of it, except for the ratchet which wore out long before I arrived in this world!

I only use it now when I'm working on large machine tools so hopefully it'll remain in good shape!

 

[pipsters]

Yea it ***** but it just can't see the logic in having to spend money so that I can spend money. I'll hold out as long as I can and I pay for everything with cash or money order.
.

Credit cards are free...in fact I made $2400 last year with mine.

The store pays the small %, and 99% don't discount any for cash.

 

[ganymede]

How do credit card companies make money ?

 

[plinker]

How do credit card companies make money ?

By people not knowing how to manage money.

 

[Dave455]

When you pay by credit card, the seller gets charged a small percentage. Then usually, if you don't pay your credit card bill at the end of the month, you have to pay interest on the amount outstanding. Each card offers a different deal though. American Express charge an annual fee, but the interest rate is lower. I use Visa, but settle up promptly to avoid charges, and never take it on the Snap On truck!

You can also get debit cards which work a bit like an electronic cheque. No fees are charged for a debit card transaction, but of course they stop working if you run out of money!

In the U.K. you can also get prepaid cards which you put money on in advance. You can have one if you have a bad credit history, or if you don't trust banks!

 

[plinker]

I treat a credit card as a (very) short term loan and pay it off the same month with little to none left to pay interest on. Works well.

Debit cards are not as secure as a credit card and usually does not have the same fraud protection as a credit card, from what I know.

 

[ganymede]

All that for a rebuild kit . No thanks .
I'll just use it till it wears out then buy a new ratchet from SK or whoever.
No bureaucratic nonsense there.
Anyway thanks for everyone's help .