Snap-on raises the bar and sets the standard

[wrenchr]

This is nothing but one big popcorn munching fest and cause it is I can not go and buy some beer!! !@#$ lol

 

[1stwarrior95]

and you are charging customers $1500 a day.

And there is the problem. If said "professional photographer" used a cheaper but still 12mp camera ha wouldn't need to screw his customers quite so bad.



Don't get me wrong, I like SO tools and think they are great quality, but no matter how you look at it they are generally overpriced for what you get.

Even if the so called "professional' can justify the cost in his own mind, that additional cost eventually gets passed on to the consumer

Being a weekend wrench myself, SO's price once again comes into play when/if I need a specialty tool. Since they can charge ungodly prices for normal wrenches then they can charge even more for speciality tools. If I happen to be doing work for hire ($, which I don't do very often), and need one of these speciality tools it takes away any money I might have made on the deal.


A "standard", (of the type being discussed in this thread), will include the price no matter how you slice it.

SO tools seem to be a sort of status symbol to some guys. (The more they pay the better they are).

 

[t100]

And there is the problem. If said "professional photographer" used a cheaper but still 12mp camera ha wouldn't need to screw his customers quite so bad.

I could have used 26mp pro camera as an example, but hard to find a consumer one to compare. it's just an analogy.

 

[1stwarrior95]

I could have used 26mp pro camera as an example, but hard to find a consumer one to compare. it's just an analogy.

Yep, just an analogy, so the mp really doesn't make much difference as long as you're comparing items, (cameras, tools, etc), with the same specs.

Wouldn't do much good to compare a 9/16 wrench to a 1-1/2in wrench...

I'm not a photographer, but I'm guessing the paper, ink, and printing device will make just as much, if not more, difference in picture quality as that 2700 dollar camera.

While the "professional" mechanic is bragging about his $40 SO 9/16 wrench, the guy with the $10 C-Man wrench will probably have the problem fixed.

Professional is a bad word IMO.
Professionals are the ones that do it cheap and fast, but not cheap and fast for the benefit of the consumer. Get it done and get it out the door. Quality is the very last thing for a professional.

 

[wreckercologist]

And there is the problem. If said "professional photographer" used a cheaper but still 12mp camera ha wouldn't need to screw his customers quite so bad.



Don't get me wrong, I like SO tools and think they are great quality, but no matter how you look at it they are generally overpriced for what you get.

Even if the so called "professional' can justify the cost in his own mind, that additional cost eventually gets passed on to the consumer

Being a weekend wrench myself, SO's price once again comes into play when/if I need a specialty tool. Since they can charge ungodly prices for normal wrenches then they can charge even more for speciality tools. If I happen to be doing work for hire ($, which I don't do very often), and need one of these speciality tools it takes away any money I might have made on the deal.


A "standard", (of the type being discussed in this thread), will include the price no matter how you slice it.

SO tools seem to be a sort of status symbol to some guys. (The more they pay the better they are).

Ah, I see. My ego and my status in the mechanic wolf pack are directly related to my tool bill. I'll have to speak to the boss about passing the cost along to the customer via my larger paycheck.

 

[krusty the clown]

While the "professional" mechanic is bragging about his $40 SO 9/16 wrench, the guy with the $10 C-Man wrench will probably have the problem fixed.

thats making the assumption that the mechanic atually IS wasting time "bragging about the quality of his $27.50 (not $40) over the guy with a $10.49 craftsman full polish wrench.

Professionals are the ones that do it cheap and fast, but not cheap and fast for the benefit of the consumer. Get it done and get it out the door. Quality is the very last thing for a professional.

a profesional does it right, cheap and fast have nothing to do with it.....
quality is the very first thing for a profesional.

 

[krusty the clown]

Even if the so called "professional' can justify the cost in his own mind, that additional cost eventually gets passed on to the consumer

the cost of tools do not get passed on to the customer..........

the customers cost is based soley on the labor time standard set by the manufacturer and the hourly rate set by the shop's owner.

the cost would be the same regardless of whether i used a snap on wrench or a harbor freight wrench.

 

[Shocker]

My cat's breath smells like catfood.

Merry Christmas!

 

[krusty the clown]

My cat's breath smells like catfood.

Merry Christmas!

turn it around

 

[wreckercologist]

My cat's breath smells like catfood.

Merry Christmas!

Good old Ralph!

 

[1stwarrior95]

Yea, cost gets passed on to the consumer sooner or later.
Be it tools or something else you want sooner or later you will be thinkin, "man if I just had the $ for that"... or maybe, "if I just made more $"...

Whether you want to believe it or not, quality is far down the ladder on just about anything nowdays.
Quantity is what's important for most in todays world.

You may be different from the norm, (which would be good).

Unsubscribing from this thread. No good can come from it.

 

[t100]

Yep, just an analogy, so the mp really doesn't make much difference as long as you're comparing items, (cameras, tools, etc), with the same specs.
Wouldn't do much good to compare ...

it's much deeper than that. a frozen 9/16 bolt requires a lot less force to turn than an 1-1/2in bolt. the same force used to turn the 1-1/2 wrench could break the 9/16 wrench easily, no matter who makes them.

quality and value are not just how it looks and how much the price tag.

when we hired a photographer to take product pictures for my company, he used a (relatively) cheap 30mp Mamiya medium format camera with a Leaf digital back, costs about $30,000 at that time. the pictures will be used on our catalog were all going to be 2" or smaller. so, you may ask, why you wanna spend that kinda money on this? well, the difference was the time we made 6 foot tall posters using the exact same pictures the guy taken. the $150 camera won't work.


let me put in this way, both you and a professional tech work on installing transmissions. a $40 high quality, good fit 9/16 wrench, can turn the bolts nicely in about 20 minutes, a $1 poor fit 9/16 wrench can round out some bolts, now, the ****** is stuck. to fix it, at least you would need to buy a set of new OEM bolts, $8x 5, you're out $40. $20/hour labor. what if the bellhousing was cracked(by using a $15 HF torqwrench), now you're out $1500, plus 6 hours of labor. how's that $300 torq wrench look to you, cheap is the word.

you are a weekend wrencher, you may take a chance to worked on a transmission and get away with standard tools. but, if I'm a mechanic, I'm doing it every single day, I'm sure don't wanna take that bet.

I've never bought 1 piece Snap On tool from the tool truck, the very few pieces I have were all from ebay and CL. All I'm saying is buy the best tools you can afford to handle your needs. that's it.

 

[Stuey]

I don't understand this statement at all. Is the mechanic that buys SO not a consumer?

See, If HF would just charge 10 times more they'd be right up to the benchmark? LOL

Exactly. Mechanics are not consumers, they are professional tool users.

If HF charged 10x what they do, yes, more people will start claiming that the tools are great. That's not how it should be, but it's how it is.

 

[krusty the clown]

Yea, cost gets passed on to the consumer sooner or later.
Be it tools or something else you want sooner or later you will be thinkin, "man if I just had the $ for that"... or maybe, "if I just made more $"...

it's not how it works.........really

Whether you want to believe it or not, quality is far down the ladder on just about anything nowdays.
Quantity is what's important for most in todays world.

while you are correct, a tech that is more concerned about his quantity than his quality is NOT a true profesional. we call them frfu's.

You may be different from the norm, (which would be good).

i try to be.......fixing the car is my first concern.

 

[gumbudah]

I'm not so sure the camera analogy is accurate for this discussion, as a HUGE part of that example is the quantity and type of features. The high end camera undoubtedly has far more features than the consumer model. This may be applicable to some SO tools, however not many, as the only thing I see where SO excels is with durability and the fact that its got the high priced snap on label. The tools don't have more features as with the camera analogy (I'm sure there are a bunch of exceptions), it is purely a durability issue.

 

[sberry]

Everyone is represented a little. The electrolite are really junkie, easily sprung and actually out classed by the Olympia from TSC. Someone gave them to me so no big loss. There are some similar here but one of my favorites is a double box from Mac, I like the offset like in the last pic, 1/2 x 9/16

 

[idunnosh#t]

Snap on set the standard with American ingenuity,American quality, American durability,and American Labor .Harbor freight and the rest of that chinese **** is nothing more than ripoff repro copys made with cheap oppressed labor,living in a police state with very few human rights.People better realize before it's to late that Wall street is selling America $1 at a time to their Chinese accomplices.Every dollar we send over there weakens America and shifts more power to a country that is not our friend (Korea-Vietnam ring any bells) and will soon reduce the U.S to a minor power.See how ya like your made in China **** then ...

 

[mrshaun]

well once again as I have said many times. There is a defference.

use that cheap 9/16 on a tight bolt and watch the head spread and round the fastener. now how much is that cheap wrench worth.
Use that ( http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?item_ID=4488&group_ID=521 ) regular snap on wrench and watch it hang in there and remove the fastner. No how much was that worth to you.
weekend warriors strive to get a snap on wrench set, but do not put down the best wrench simply because 80% of the technicians prefer to use snap on.

 

[Vinko]

I'm very sympathetic to a lot of the postings on here concerning innovation and quality product threatened by imitation (often from offshore manufacturers) -- whether it be violation of patents, trademark or trade dress. And I'm in agreement that cheap product that finds its way here threatens that innovation. I do think, thought, that Americans will always be innovative no matter what.

let's say you take an OEM product and then a Snap-on rebadge of it. Which do you think some people will adamently claim is superior? When money and branding comes into the picture, perceptions change.

What I'd consider is whether or not the OEM is the exact same as the, say, SO product. Or if SO spec's out the product differently. Maybe it specifies a higher grade of material, or added processes. Same thing for an OEM that makes, say for Tool Truck Co A, B, and C. Are they all the same product, and simply rebadged? Maybe so. Maybe not. My experience in OEM manufacturing has taught me that it's not always the case that OEM = brand product. I suspect, but have little hard evidence to go on, that an Armstrong and Matco item, made by the same OEM, aren't necessarily built to the same spec.

 

[Vinko]

So what happens when the premium tool like Snap on has no dealers because the last two have gone out of bis. so far we have already spent over fourty dollars on UPS shipping broken tools back to Snap on and so far only got back two of the tools. I also figure somebody will tell me how great the customer service from Snap on is even though this is the slowest tool company I have ever had to send tools to for replacement or repair two months and counting as of today. I no I shouldn't expect much as it was all od ball stuff like 1/4 ractchets 3/8 ratchets and some screwdrivers and sockets. WHAT A JOKE.

Did you send the package with tracking or insurance? Did you call them? Were you the original purchaser of the tools? What condition were the tools in when you sent them?

 

[Vinko]

could be worse........you could be trying to get a mayhew punch replaced, or some matco tools replaced, or some mac tools replaced........

So far, no problems with getting Mac tools replaced. Proto too.

Even got a Cornwell wrench replaced and I told them I wasn't original purchaser but that it cracked on first bolt I turned with it. (Got it from GJ Classifieds )

 

[Vinko]

I've tried for 15 years now for a rebuild kit on a Snap on ratchet.

15 years? This should be an interesting story

 

[Vinko]

Would you not agree those are market based standard organizations??

Vinko thinks the "market" is a pretty much umbrella-like term. And he isn't sure how Elroy is using it

Vinko thinks orgs like ASTM were initially instigated by trade and industry (suppliers, manufacturers, maybe middle men) to insure that, uh, "standards" have been met. Vinko thinks, further, that such standards are as much about making sure competitors "disclose" the fact that they are making their gizmos to a sufficient enough spec., as they are about informing the consumer, or customer, or end user about the product. Though Vinko confesses that he might be reassured by the fact that the replacement plug he buys at Home Cheapo is rated by UL or TUV or others.

Make no mistake. It's the Capitalist system that drives quality products to the market where the products stand on their own merits

Maybe Vinko makes a mistake in that in his experience, capitalism dumbs down, compromises, or short cuts Gizmo A or Gizmo B in the very name of capitalism. That is, Vinko thinks the inherent logic of capitalism is so contradictory, that capitalism offers not necessarily quality, but what John Q. Consumer or Joe X. Buyer believe to be quality (or value, or whatever other "merits" he is looking for). Vinko would imagine that true excellence in a product cannot be produced in a capitalist system. Vinko would offer the example of the Apollo program -- produced not by a market system, but by the government; with people motivated not by profit, but by higher values.

Vinko trusts that he is not mistaken, however, in advocating that a market system (more or less free) seems to be the most efficient system we have for trading goods, but certainly not a logical or ethical or moral system.

 

[Vinko]

let me put in this way, both you and a professional tech work on installing transmissions. a $40 high quality, good fit 9/16 wrench, can turn the bolts nicely in about 20 minutes, a $1 poor fit 9/16 wrench can round out some bolts, now, the ****** is stuck. to fix it, at least you would need to buy a set of new OEM bolts, $8x 5, you're out $40. $20/hour labor. what if the bellhousing was cracked(by using a $15 HF torqwrench), now you're out $1500, plus 6 hours of labor. how's that $300 torq wrench look to you, cheap is the word.

you are a weekend wrencher, you may take a chance to worked on a transmission and get away with standard tools. but, if I'm a mechanic, I'm doing it every single day, I'm sure don't wanna take that bet.

Using your logic, which I agree with, the last thing I'd want to do as a weekend wrencher is f-up a job I could've done right w/the quality tool. Especially since I only have the week-ends and may have other stuff to do too

 

[John Galt]

You don't have to pay full price for Snap-on tools! I started about a year ago buying snap-on sockets and wrenches on EBAY.

I only buy unmarked stuff (no grinder marks) and only buy stuff in near like new condition.

So far I've accumulated full sets of shallow and deep, standard and metric snap-on, 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", and 3/4" sockets w/ratchets and wrenchs for about 1/2 what they would have cost new. Even at 1/2 price they still were not cheap but I'm happy. Yeah it took a year, buying a single socket here, a couple there, buy 3 to get 2 and have to re-sell the other one...

 

[eriksalo]

Nothing feels better in your hand than a quality tool. Working with quality tools is a pleasure. Working with cheap tools is a chore. I believe I do better work when I have nice tools to use.

If you are a professional mechanic, the cost difference between quality tools and cheap tools is almost nothing in the overall span of your career. Tools that have a lifetime guarantee especially are an, "own if forever" proposition.

I have quite a few Snap-on tools and quite a few Craftsman tools. Both are absolutely fit for use but the Snap-On tools are clearly better. I find myself reaching for my snap on tools first simply because I like them more.

While Snap-On has been the benchmark for a long time, some of the new tools are getting very good. GearWrench products made in Taiwan come to mind. Very low cost (and even though none of us want to admit it, high quality) Asian manufacturing has really leveled the playing field and allowed smaller players to innovate. This is good for all of us.

I have been to China and Taiwan several times looking at manufacturers and they are getting so good that the argument, "made in America is always better," will soon (or has already) ceased to be true.

The problem for domestic manufacturers is all the infrastructure has gone to South East Asia. Raw metal, chrome plating chemicals, the forging machines, the milling machines, etc are almost exclusively sourced in Asia today. A Chinese company can afford to put double or triple the number of people on quality and process control because their raw material cost is so low. This is why you see everyone going to Asia, it's simply the way the world economy is going to go. If you doubt the ability of the Asian manufacturers to make quality products, realize that 100% of computers have been made either in Taiwan for China for more than 15 years.

I recently bought a CNC milling machine for my personal shop. The guy I bought it from said he could get his component made in China and shipped to him in Colorado for less then he could buy the raw metal for here in the states. He had no need for a milling machine.

This change in the overall environment has made it easier for new players to get in the game. One that I really like is GearWrench. I bought a set of their X-Beam ratchet wrenches. I like them better than my Craftsman AND Snap-On wrenches. They feel so nice in my hand and have such a smooth and strong ratcheting action, they are the ones I reach for first. I don't know how they will hold up but right now, they are my favorite wrench.

Snap-One makes some terrific products. They are a good company. However, the world is changing and universal access to low cost, high quality manufacturing has changed the industry and will continue to change the industry. Thinking that one brand will always be the best for everything is (in my opinion) an outdated concept in today's world. When I look for a new tool now, I have to look at all the options and then I pick the one I like the best. Sometimes it's Snap-On, sometimes it isn't.

Erik