Snap-on scan tool users, when do you upgrade tools?

[2ndGearRubber]

Preface, I am not super interested in this deal, it was just presented to me earlier today. It got me thinking that I have never quantified what my end goal is with eventually moving to another snapon tool. I have two other "asian" tools and I am not interested in moving away from snap on completely. ~4 years ago, I acquired a new Solus legend as part of a package deal for 2050, and ~ 2 years after that 2k and that tool got me into my current tool - a generation 1, windows 7 Zeus. So my effective out of pocket cost on this tool is $4050, less update cost which is another topic and another thread for handling which tools to keep current and why.

Anyway my dealer calls me and says he has a brand new zeus+ tool, $4500 plus my current tool. I didn't ask if it included any "free update" time, usually they give you 1 year as I remember, then you can buy a data plan or single updates. Just for the thread knowledge I should ask my dealer if I can keep my locked in data plan cost on a new tool, even if there is a period where I would not be paying as it would have "free updates" for a given time.


This thread is less about that specific deal, and more about when people are updating the staggeringly expensive snapon tools to new units. My plan was always to wait for the Zeus++ or whatever the next model is and then vulture my way into a then used zeus+. I'm not interested in removing Snapon scan tools from my setup, and we can discuss that I suppose or whatever else if it's relevant. I wish they would just sell me a verus+ with no intelligent diagnostics and spare me a few grand. All I ever use in that feature is suretrack for basic analytics and TSB lists. Maybe the repair data/mileage graph and TSB list are actually part of the intellegent diagnostic system, IDK. I tried using it a few times and didn't like it with the preselected graphs, tests, etc. Maybe people eventually finds it saves them time overall?


So for those with snap-on tools, what's your eventual upgrade path? Are you running the tool until all updates/support is gone? Trading more often to avoid subscription costs and keep a warranty? Waiting on new releases and upgrading into someone elses trade-in tool? On various social media platforms it seems like some loud voices are moving away from snapon diagnostic tools entirely, but I'm not sure I am ready to do so.

 

[Zewnten]

May not be the right thread for this but what do the snap on units do so much better that justifies the price tag to stay with it? Not looking for justification a person likes what they like but form my admittedly infrequent use of them I didn't find anything special about them.

 

[charbar]

Unless the newest model has some super duper new feature that I just have to have I see no reason in buying a new one. Basically the same thought on trading in a currently owned one that is updatable for a newer used model-the only thing you are gaining is a couple features that you might not even need. Ill let someone else take the initial hit on price and then buy a trade in unit that is still updatable for awhile into the future.

I guess they stopped supporting my Verus Edge scanner, but instead of trading for a newer model, or paying the 10-12K or whatever they wanted for a new Zeus plus I ended up keeping the verus and buying a new Maxysis Elite for under $5k. Nothing wrong with my Verus except now I cant use it on mopars SGW.....not an issue since the autel is new and always up to date.

Having a couple J boxes allows me to use O.E. diagnostics if needed as well so I see even less of a reason to have the newest aftermarket scan tool available.

I will continue to run this way until I come across a good deal on a used Zeus plus some day, then the verus can go down the road....wont be worth much since it cant be updated, but thats not a big deal to me.

 

[richfinn]

Last time I spent any money on a Snap-On scanner was 2001!!!

Obviously Snap-On have never been aimed as heavily at EURO as they have USA domestic models.

I guess it depends on how convenient the tool is for what you work on???

I think at $4.5K you might be at a crossroads, (keep the Topdon) buy two or three factory scan tools you would use the most/profit from personally by offering some programming etc.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

May not be the right thread for this but what do the snap on units do so much better that justifies the price tag to stay with it? Not looking for justification a person likes what they like but form my admittedly infrequent use of them I didn't find anything special about them.

My preference, and I think the most powerful tool, is the top of the line windows platform. The 1st best feature is their code scan, which automatically pulls up and lists completed monitors for emissions after listing all scanned modules and codes. This way when ******* customers/front desk people try to send you "comebacks" you point to the documented monitor completion list. This is also automatically saved without BS. Autel/topdon want names, boxes filled out, documentation- just save it and STFU. Snap on saves the day, automatically, so with an RO I can go back through a given day and pull up any code scan docs. When I'm running emissions monitors I actually prefer the autel layout, actually that goes for the generic side of the software autel is probably my favorite. But this feature makes protecting yourself easy, and when you're fixing cars someone is ALWAYS trying to get something over on you. All the snap on tools use that layout and it's fantastic. It also records data automatically, which my topdon does not. Which is annoying when I'm on a test drive, a fault occurs, then I pull over and realize the data is gone.

Earlier today I did a steering angle reset on a 2018 GM product, with my Topdon. After this I had "lost communication" codes in several modules, warning lights on the dash, and I couldn't complete the learn on the steering angle. Unplugging the topdon corrected the comm codes, and the snap on then completed the job. Snap on has the weakest coverage of tests, data, etc but the least amount of BS like that with unintended consequences, tests that don't work, data lines that don't apply to the car, etc. Snap on "works". It works the least, does the least, but if you have it, it will probably work.

Any tool with a scope has built in guided component tester. This included, never goes away, is stored on the tool itself no internet needed. Load a vehicle, pick a system. You can have PCM pinouts, connector views of the window switch, description and operation as well as specs for a heated thermostat. This is a massive help. I don't have, and I know many techs who don't have, a personal computer terminal. So when some slug is clogging up the terminal eating their 3rd lunch, I need to corral them away, and keep them away, from my service info. Identifix does not play nice with our printers, having lots of formatting issues. This means trying to print something may take several attempts, and there is still a possibilty you will not have a usable document. People will close your data/diagrams to do their work. "oh did you need that open?". So this is an immensely powerful tool to minimize having to fight for shared resources. This is also super useful when you're 250' from a computer, laying on your back. This leads into the next thing - While other brands have brought in their own, I'll just throw out the integrated scope. I now have a windows tablet with a picoscope, but that Zues can be my service info, scanner, I can take a resistance measurement, 4 channel lab scope, it's just very helpful. I can grab two leads, a current clamp, and the zeus and that's bascially any and all diagnostic tools you may need for most jobs.


Snap on is probably the easiest to learn, as their menus are formatted very similar brand by brand. While other brands have improved, snap on graphing is probably the best resolution. That and autel/launch won't always let you graph switched inputs and other yes/no sort of data which is infuriating when trying to relate various points of data to one another.


IMO you really need all 3 major brands. If I can't do it with that, I'm dead in the water because I've decided I am not willing to buy a J2534 device personally. Not worth it, too many hoops to use it, etc. That and the ROI I've calculated is super ******. Snap on is way too expensive, but what it does well with, it is amazing.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Unless the newest model has some super duper new feature that I just have to have I see no reason in buying a new one. Basically the same thought on trading in a currently owned one that is updatable for a newer used model-the only thing you are gaining is a couple features that you might not even need. Ill let someone else take the initial hit on price and then buy a trade in unit that is still updatable for awhile into the future.

I guess they stopped supporting my Verus Edge scanner, but instead of trading for a newer model, or paying the 10-12K or whatever they wanted for a new Zeus plus I ended up keeping the verus and buying a new Maxysis Elite for under $5k. Nothing wrong with my Verus except now I cant use it on mopars SGW.....not an issue since the autel is new and always up to date.

Having a couple J boxes allows me to use O.E. diagnostics if needed as well so I see even less of a reason to have the newest aftermarket scan tool available.

I will continue to run this way until I come across a good deal on a used Zeus plus some day, then the verus can go down the road....wont be worth much since it cant be updated, but thats not a big deal to me.

Yeah the new unit would have the updated VCI, so it would do DIOP and Ethernet, IDK if the gen 1 Zeus can do CANfd currently . My gut says it cannot. That's worth considering, as CANFD is becoming relevant. Screen is bigger, I have used the new VCI and it is ridiculously faster than mine. Scope is not on the back, now it's "remote" which really just means on a stupid cable. They act like it's a feature, but the scope could always be on a remote cable even back in the Verus days. Whenever it became a "scope module" which was removable it was technically possible to connect it with a 6ft cable back to the tool. So now you have to buy a Jarhead Diagnostics mount or similar to have the scope where it belongs on the back of the tool. That's probably another $120 incurred because snap on wasn't thinking.

I have a topdon Pheonix like 2, and a 906 autel. My theory has evolved to snap on needing to be my premier/expensive tool. I can replicate launch/autel software cheaply, and wireless. If I want a scope, which I really do like even though I own the Pico, I need the 1st or 2nd highest option tool from snap on. And I want that scope, for guided component tester and just for easy use, big meter screen, etc. If I want wireless, I have to buy a Zeus. So to me I feel I need to either buy/keep a Zeus, or just move away from snap on because I don't want to go back to a corded tool. Snap on - BUILD AND THEN SELL ME A WIRELESS TRITON D10! I also need a tool with a big screen for graphing more than 6 things at a time, so at that point I'm sort of railroaded into either keeping a top line Snapon product or just dropping them. This would then require me to buy another tool with a big screen, probably an autel, which then means I'm spending a bunch anyway.


I like to have two tools on current software, currently all 3 are but the Topdon will be running out this winter. If I really wanted capability, I should get an Escan elite for the really brain-frying issues, but I don't see a crazy amount of those issues and it makes the purchase harder.

Last time I spent any money on a Snap-On scanner was 2001!!!

Obviously Snap-On have never been aimed as heavily at EURO as they have USA domestic models.

I guess it depends on how convenient the tool is for what you work on???

I think at $4.5K you might be at a crossroads, (keep the Topdon) buy two or three factory scan tools you would use the most/profit from personally by offering some programming etc.

I was in 5th grade.........

I would never abandon keeping BOTH the major Asian software brands. They're too cheap and too powerful, plus keeping them current is easy to bypass gateway issues.

The math I need to do is figure out what software would be included. I pay 1188? a year for software on the snap on. If included with a new tool is a year of free data, that effectively removed 1188 off the price of the new tool as that will be an incurred expense on my current tool anyway. Which is still like $3200 which is a bunch of money, but I should confirm that.


I still don't think I want to buy one, but I appricate the opinions. Glad to see I'm not wildly off base here with my thinking.

 

[zendriver]

....

 

[richfinn]

Yeah the new unit would have the updated VCI, so it would do DIOP and Ethernet, IDK if the gen 1 Zeus can do CANfd currently . My gut says it cannot. That's worth considering, as CANFD is becoming relevant. Screen is bigger, I have used the new VCI and it is ridiculously faster than mine. Scope is not on the back, now it's "remote" which really just means on a stupid cable. They act like it's a feature, but the scope could always be on a remote cable even back in the Verus days. Whenever it became a "scope module" which was removable it was technically possible to connect it with a 6ft cable back to the tool. So now you have to buy a Jarhead Diagnostics mount or similar to have the scope where it belongs on the back of the tool. That's probably another $120 incurred because snap on wasn't thinking.

I have a topdon Pheonix like 2, and a 906 autel. My theory has evolved to snap on needing to be my premier/expensive tool. I can replicate launch/autel software cheaply, and wireless. If I want a scope, which I really do like even though I own the Pico, I need the 1st or 2nd highest option tool from snap on. And I want that scope, for guided component tester and just for easy use, big meter screen, etc. If I want wireless, I have to buy a Zeus. So to me I feel I need to either buy/keep a Zeus, or just move away from snap on because I don't want to go back to a corded tool. Snap on - BUILD AND THEN SELL ME A WIRELESS TRITON D10! I also need a tool with a big screen for graphing more than 6 things at a time, so at that point I'm sort of railroaded into either keeping a top line Snapon product or just dropping them. This would then require me to buy another tool with a big screen, probably an autel, which then means I'm spending a bunch anyway.


I like to have two tools on current software, currently all 3 are but the Topdon will be running out this winter. If I really wanted capability, I should get an Escan elite for the really brain-frying issues, but I don't see a crazy amount of those issues and it makes the purchase harder.



I was in 5th grade.........

I would never abandon keeping BOTH the major Asian software brands. They're too cheap and too powerful, plus keeping them current is easy to bypass gateway issues.

The math I need to do is figure out what software would be included. I pay 1188? a year for software on the snap on. If included with a new tool is a year of free data, that effectively removed 1188 off the price of the new tool as that will be an incurred expense on my current tool anyway. Which is still like $3200 which is a bunch of money, but I should confirm that.


I still don't think I want to buy one, but I appricate the opinions. Glad to see I'm not wildly off base here with my thinking.

It's always been difficult to predict the future of scan tools, where I am we are definitely seeing more and more EVs all the time, I can muddle through badly labelled PIDs and gateway security log-in on internal combustion powered vehicles knowing I have a fair chance of figuring a diagnosis out.

I'm not sure if I can face it all again on the high voltage stuff, hopefully regular vehicles will hang on just long enough for me to retire in peace (or die trying).

Mostly I am a little envious of youth, but not in this arena

 

[Wrench97]

Currently the shop has a 5 year old Solus last updated in 4 qtr of 22 so it needs to be done this year, the Autel is current til Feb. of 25,
we bought a Topdon this year mainly to triage and I'm trying to get it to register with my boss that we need to scan every car and get the owners to give us the insurance card and registration at the time of drop off. I'm tired of playing was that light on before we worked on it or not, and having a bay ******* because we don't have he paper work to inspect the car everybody has it on their phone and when you finally get it it's expired....a subject for another thread.
I still have my old out dated Modus mainly for the scope at this point.
Lastly I have a ancient generic obd2 tool I use to check readiness monitors simply because it's the fastest thing in the tool box to use.

 

[L.Cheapo]

I agree with everything you said, Scott. I have a Modis Edge that I bought new in 2017? Did the free updates and that was it. I don't work in a shop; this is for my fleet of personal vehicles and helping friends/family with theirs. The 2 channel scope, while not ideal for some things, was great as a first scope to learn on. But it had left me wanting more.

Our FCA SGW vehicles are still under warranty for a couple more years. I understand my Modis will do that when the time comes with the recent updates and an autoauth subscription. Snap on recently discontinued the Modis line, so the updates will probably stop soon too, if they haven't already. My plan was to buy the last one and keep the tool--it's great on older Chrysler stuff, which I have a few of.

I recently got a TopDon Phoenix Lite 3 and Phoenix scope. I'm learning the scope, but it's not as intuitive as the Modis. I prefer the 4mm plugs over the BNC. So my plan is to keep the Modis for the old stuff and use the Topdon and its 4 channel scope where I can and use it for SGW until the final Modis update comes out.

I also have an Escan Elite, and while it is slightly over my head, I'm figuring it out. It's an unbelievably powerful and capable tool for drivability concerns. Jeff at ATS has been amazing to work with and super helpful when I've had questions.

Good luck and interested in what you ultimately decide.

 

[f121]

I upgrade when the tool doesn’t support vehicles I need or the new tool has functionality I want.

I bought my modis ultra used off the truck when the modis edge came out, after a few years ran into issues with some vehicles not being supported (including my wife’s 05 mustang…despite running 2017 software) and wanted the cloud upload/printing the modis edge supports.

I talked to my guy who had a couple of used modis edge units, then got chatting with a dealer who was closing up and got a new Triton D10 instead for just under $3k. No regrets, the triton is brilliant and a massive upgrade, I worry more about lending it out thou.

Personally I can’t see myself buying a windows based scan tool, I really like how the triton boots in a couple of seconds and I never have to worry about windows updates etc.

 

[dchawk81]

If the thoughts of someone who isn't a professional are worth listening to:

Sales are starting to happen EVERYWHERE.

If the upgrade will help you, absolutely go for it. If it won't, absolutely don't.

The sales will continue to get better (for the buyer) as the economy tanks, and if/when the economy rebounds enough for prices to go back up, so will the revenue.

IOW it basically doesn't matter about the actual price itself.

 

[mikey03]

Personally I can’t see myself buying a windows based scan tool, I really like how the triton boots in a couple of seconds and I never have to worry about windows updates etc.

isn’t it all either windows or android these days? Doesn’t android also need updates all the time?

 

[2ndGearRubber]

It's always been difficult to predict the future of scan tools, where I am we are definitely seeing more and more EVs all the time, I can muddle through badly labelled PIDs and gateway security log-in on internal combustion powered vehicles knowing I have a fair chance of figuring a diagnosis out.

I'm not sure if I can face it all again on the high voltage stuff, hopefully regular vehicles will hang on just long enough for me to retire in peace (or die trying).

Mostly I am a little envious of youth, but not in this arena

I will be 34 in a few months. Here in the US, I expect ICE to be the majority of the work for my career. I would not work on anything electric, or hybrid battery related, in my current workplace.

Currently the shop has a 5 year old Solus last updated in 4 qtr of 22 so it needs to be done this year, the Autel is current til Feb. of 25,
we bought a Topdon this year mainly to triage and I'm trying to get it to register with my boss that we need to scan every car and get the owners to give us the insurance card and registration at the time of drop off. I'm tired of playing was that light on before we worked on it or not, and having a bay ******* because we don't have he paper work to inspect the car everybody has it on their phone and when you finally get it it's expired....a subject for another thread.
I still have my old out dated Modus mainly for the scope at this point.
Lastly I have a ancient generic obd2 tool I use to check readiness monitors simply because it's the fastest thing in the tool box to use.

I could rant until the day I die - REGISTRATION AND INSURANCE

I think civil litigation will become much bigger in the aftermarket world, and push pre/post scans and similar into the norm as well as driving out the bottom of the market. No, you cannot have the customer "sign a waiver" that you did a substandard repair, used their supplied parts, etc. Civil outcomes are pretty clear on this, and shops are very slowly waking up.

I agree with everything you said, Scott. I have a Modis Edge that I bought new in 2017? Did the free updates and that was it. I don't work in a shop; this is for my fleet of personal vehicles and helping friends/family with theirs. The 2 channel scope, while not ideal for some things, was great as a first scope to learn on. But it had left me wanting more.

Our FCA SGW vehicles are still under warranty for a couple more years. I understand my Modis will do that when the time comes with the recent updates and an autoauth subscription. Snap on recently discontinued the Modis line, so the updates will probably stop soon too, if they haven't already. My plan was to buy the last one and keep the tool--it's great on older Chrysler stuff, which I have a few of.

I recently got a TopDon Phoenix Lite 3 and Phoenix scope. I'm learning the scope, but it's not as intuitive as the Modis. I prefer the 4mm plugs over the BNC. So my plan is to keep the Modis for the old stuff and use the Topdon and its 4 channel scope where I can and use it for SGW until the final Modis update comes out.

I also have an Escan Elite, and while it is slightly over my head, I'm figuring it out. It's an unbelievably powerful and capable tool for drivability concerns. Jeff at ATS has been amazing to work with and super helpful when I've had questions.

Good luck and interested in what you ultimately decide.

I'm a banana jack guy as well, just feels right.

How do you like the Escan? Does it solve previously uncrackable problems or mostly just save a lot of time? Please turn this into an Escan Elite review thread as I've found very little information.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I upgrade when the tool doesn’t support vehicles I need or the new tool has functionality I want.

I bought my modis ultra used off the truck when the modis edge came out, after a few years ran into issues with some vehicles not being supported (including my wife’s 05 mustang…despite running 2017 software) and wanted the cloud upload/printing the modis edge supports.

I talked to my guy who had a couple of used modis edge units, then got chatting with a dealer who was closing up and got a new Triton D10 instead for just under $3k. No regrets, the triton is brilliant and a massive upgrade, I worry more about lending it out thou.

Personally I can’t see myself buying a windows based scan tool, I really like how the triton boots in a couple of seconds and I never have to worry about windows updates etc.

I keep mine on the dock, in "ready" with the software open. As soon as I can get the VCI connected I'm up and running. Now if you're turning it off, I'd agree.

If the thoughts of someone who isn't a professional are worth listening to:

Sales are starting to happen EVERYWHERE.

If the upgrade will help you, absolutely go for it. If it won't, absolutely don't.

The sales will continue to get better (for the buyer) as the economy tanks, and if/when the economy rebounds enough for prices to go back up, so will the revenue.

IOW it basically doesn't matter about the actual price itself.

You might be costing me a LOT of money. My mobile workstation isn't here yet, so I have not signed any paperwork with it. If I purchased both at the same time on one purchase for an out of pocket ~8k I could take advantage of financing rebates for likely another $500+ off. 3.5 for the cart, 4.5 for the tool, but the having a current software snap on Zeus will cost me ~1200 for a year no matter what so the actual cost of the new unit will likely be closer to 3.3k after an -assumed- 1 year of free data. So 6.8k "financed" same as cash for whatever term is within the same as cash period as I don't want to pay their nuts interest.

Now I feel I'm required to explore this avenue. LOL Hopefully it's too expensive. I really dislike the scope situation.

 

[richfinn]

I will be 34 in a few months. Here in the US, I expect ICE to be the majority of the work for my career. I would not work on anything electric, or hybrid battery related, in my current workplace.



I could rant until the day I die - REGISTRATION AND INSURANCE

I think civil litigation will become much bigger in the aftermarket world, and push pre/post scans and similar into the norm as well as driving out the bottom of the market. No, you cannot have the customer "sign a waiver" that you did a substandard repair, used their supplied parts, etc. Civil outcomes are pretty clear on this, and shops are very slowly waking up.



I'm a banana jack guy as well, just feels right.

How do you like the Escan? Does it solve previously uncrackable problems or mostly just save a lot of time? Please turn this into an Escan Elite review thread as I've found very little information.

The EV thing will happen a lot faster than you imagine, trust me these ****** things are everywhere in the UK

I've watched a lot of Bernie Thomson's videos on the E-SCAN Elite, that looks like a tool that might have a good few years in it to me (if you can learn to use it as effectively he does, which I'm sure you can).

 

[toolenthusiast]

I wish they would just sell me a verus+ with no intelligent diagnostics and spare me a few grand.

Sounds like my modis edge, just with a couple more scope channels

 

[L.Cheapo]

How do you like the Escan? Does it solve previously uncrackable problems or mostly just save a lot of time? Please turn this into an Escan Elite review thread as I've found very little information.

There isn't much info about it easily findable on the internet--I don't think there's a whole lot of them out in the wild. I haven't had a chance to REALLY use it yet, but I have tried out most of its features on a known good vehicle. I had to relearn how to use Windows (I went Mac only about 8 years ago) to use it, which isn't my favorite. I didn't understand some of the features, but the folks at ATS are just a phone call away and are super helpful, to the point of joining in on your session directly via the Escan program and helping you out directly. Pretty awesome. And they KNOW their stuff.

You probably already know this, but it's worth noting it cannot do SGW stuff, and it's not a bi-directional scan tool. It can read/erase codes, but it's really an ultra powerful generic OBD2 tool. It can do things I didn't even know were things. It probably won't be the first tool you grab for diag, but it's excellent for driveability stuff. Where it really shines is volumetric efficiency, fuel trims, monitors, engine warm up, mode 6, VE/TFT comparisons, cat efficiency, even g forces for brake pulls, acceleration, etc. The thing even talks to you! It has presets for most vehicles which loads the standards that it uses to graph and judge V/E, warmup time, etc. It maps out the fuel trim cells while you drive--even color codes them to show where they are vs where they should be at each step of the way. There are a number of tests it can do too, like cat efficiency, fuel efficiency, engine warm up, engine power, fuel trim. You can also choose pids and view up to 8 of them in graph or digital form on the screen. There's more, too.

Like I said, I'm still learning the tool myself, so I'm no expert. But if there's anything specific you want to know or want screenshots of, I'd be happy to help however I can.

 

[Wrench97]

The EV thing will happen a lot faster than you imagine, trust me these ****** things are everywhere in the UK

I've watched a lot of Bernie Thomson's videos on the E-SCAN Elite, that looks like a tool that might have a good few years in it to me (if you can learn to use it as effectively he does, which I'm sure you can).

Your fuel prices are a lot higher, so the incentives are there.

 

[richfinn]

Your fuel prices are a lot higher, so the incentives are there.

Yep, you know what Britain is like, I had to go move two Citroen E Vans belonging to the NHS last week, the 12v auxiliary batteries were both dead from lack of use, The Post Office are also in the process of electrifying their fleet.

EVs hold zero interest for me to be honest, I consider them on the same level as a Zanussi Dishwasher, it's a soulless Corporate Vanity Project considering that our energy comes mostly from Coal Fired Power Stations (Coal which we now have to import since we closed all our Coal Mines down in the 80s).

I think Toyota/Lexus hybrids are a way better proposition (and more reliable) than any of the Euro EVs, a lot of Taxis in the UK are now Toyotas.

We also have ULEZ (ultra low emission zones) in major cities to try and drive people into "cleaner vehicles".

 

[2ndGearRubber]

There isn't much info about it easily findable on the internet--I don't think there's a whole lot of them out in the wild. I haven't had a chance to REALLY use it yet, but I have tried out most of its features on a known good vehicle. I had to relearn how to use Windows (I went Mac only about 8 years ago) to use it, which isn't my favorite. I didn't understand some of the features, but the folks at ATS are just a phone call away and are super helpful, to the point of joining in on your session directly via the Escan program and helping you out directly. Pretty awesome. And they KNOW their stuff.

You probably already know this, but it's worth noting it cannot do SGW stuff, and it's not a bi-directional scan tool. It can read/erase codes, but it's really an ultra powerful generic OBD2 tool. It can do things I didn't even know were things. It probably won't be the first tool you grab for diag, but it's excellent for driveability stuff. Where it really shines is volumetric efficiency, fuel trims, monitors, engine warm up, mode 6, VE/TFT comparisons, cat efficiency, even g forces for brake pulls, acceleration, etc. The thing even talks to you! It has presets for most vehicles which loads the standards that it uses to graph and judge V/E, warmup time, etc. It maps out the fuel trim cells while you drive--even color codes them to show where they are vs where they should be at each step of the way. There are a number of tests it can do too, like cat efficiency, fuel efficiency, engine warm up, engine power, fuel trim. You can also choose pids and view up to 8 of them in graph or digital form on the screen. There's more, too.

Like I said, I'm still learning the tool myself, so I'm no expert. But if there's anything specific you want to know or want screenshots of, I'd be happy to help however I can.

That was my general idea, based on watching the videos. I do my own VE, approximate trim/rpm, but it's all about making it easy. I don't get a wild amount of those "really out there" sort of issue. I think I'll start making a list of potential use cases over the next few months, see how many I can get.

I like conceptually how it doesn't need updates per model year, as it's less of a data acquisition tool and more an interpretation tool for the data available.

 

[L.Cheapo]

That was my general idea, based on watching the videos. I do my own VE, approximate trim/rpm, but it's all about making it easy. I don't get a wild amount of those "really out there" sort of issue. I think I'll start making a list of potential use cases over the next few months, see how many I can get.

I like conceptually how it doesn't need updates per model year, as it's less of a data acquisition tool and more an interpretation tool for the data available.

That is a great way of explaining what it is and does. A lot of what it does can be done other ways, but when time is money, well, you know the rest. I'm just not experienced enough to utilize it to its full potential at this point--but for me that's the point of having it--to learn.

It wouldn't be the first tool I grab. It's the tool I'd go for when I'm not getting enough or fast enough data from a regular scan tool, or I'm trying to pinpoint some driveability anomaly or don't trust the data another tool is giving me.

I like your idea of keeping track of the times when you really could have used it. Sounds like a great way to determine if the value is there for you.

 

[charbar]

I've never heard of an Escan until right now. So from what I'm understanding it basically watches multiple pids and alerts you when they are outside of an acceptable value???? I'm not understanding the value of it if you have a decent scanner and know where your live data should be......? Teach me lol

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I've never heard of an Escan until right now. So from what I'm understanding it basically watches multiple pids and alerts you when they are outside of an acceptable value???? I'm not understanding the value of it if you have a decent scanner and know where your live data should be......? Teach me lol

eSCAN ELITE

eSCAN ELITE with SharpShooter Technology by ATS ESN3000

www.aeswave.com

There's some graphs/info and a video.


It's basically a generic OBDII tool, with analytics. Test drive, graphs fuel trims in a panel like a fuel table. Lets you graph trim, total trim long+short, in an easily viewable way. Think the MAF under reports? Do a WOT pull. Built in VE tables and known goods, and can plot the two against each other. Decodes all Mode$6 data, although that isn't so uncommon anymore. Does converter tests where it compares the Mode$6 gibberish hexidecimal into a pass/fail graded score like an English test.

I can do a lot of that myself, but if the trims are bouncing or have conflicting trims at various points it's a pain, especially while driving. I'm sure you've done VE testing, annoying to record the data then do the math. To me? It's a luxury. I can think of a few cars it would help me with, but that's it, a few.


EDIT: I had an older corolla with an aftermarket MAF causing wild fuel control issues, and slightly restricted injectors although I never got approval to put that final nail in the coffin as the lean condition they caused was just outside setting a code. Anyway I had fuel trim swings of +/- 20% within 1000 rpm, opposing fuel trims, trim authority issues since the PCM couldn't change the trims enough and fast enough to keep up, it took some logging of data to nail down espcially since it seemed to report good at idle, was reasonable at WOT, but way out of whack in low load tip-in situations and medium load. Would have been nice to have this. I was always thinking injector issue, but the MAF was never quite right either.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

For instance, comparing fuel trim deviation % versus graphed MAF deviation from either a model or math - If these correlate you have an air flow issue. If they don't, you have a fuel control issue. We all know if the MAF can read 100%calc load the engine has good enough VE to not have major breathing faults. And you can keep a ballpark of where total fuel trim is relative to rpm in your head. But the visual on this seems like it would add back 10-15min to my life from stress everytime I used it comapred to trying to keep memory of fuel trims at rpms, while driving, while recording other data, hope you remember what that was...... was that total trim or just the long?

 

[f121]

isn’t it all either windows or android these days? Doesn’t android also need updates all the time?

SO scanners either use windows (Zeus, verus) or their own operating system (Solus, modis, etc). I don’t believe it’s Android based, probably one of the other generic lightweight operating systems.

 

[Wrench97]

SO scanners either use windows (Zeus, verus) or their own operating system (Solus, modis, etc). I don’t believe it’s Android based, probably one of the other generic lightweight operating systems.

The snap on tools not running Windows run SMX os.

 

[olsenmotorsports]

My preference, and I think the most powerful tool, is the top of the line windows platform. The 1st best feature is their code scan, which automatically pulls up and lists completed monitors for emissions after listing all scanned modules and codes. This way when ******* customers/front desk people try to send you "comebacks" you point to the documented monitor completion list. This is also automatically saved without BS. Autel/topdon want names, boxes filled out, documentation- just save it and STFU. Snap on saves the day, automatically, so with an RO I can go back through a given day and pull up any code scan docs. When I'm running emissions monitors I actually prefer the autel layout, actually that goes for the generic side of the software autel is probably my favorite. But this feature makes protecting yourself easy, and when you're fixing cars someone is ALWAYS trying to get something over on you. All the snap on tools use that layout and it's fantastic. It also records data automatically, which my topdon does not. Which is annoying when I'm on a test drive, a fault occurs, then I pull over and realize the data is gone.

Earlier today I did a steering angle reset on a 2018 GM product, with my Topdon. After this I had "lost communication" codes in several modules, warning lights on the dash, and I couldn't complete the learn on the steering angle. Unplugging the topdon corrected the comm codes, and the snap on then completed the job. Snap on has the weakest coverage of tests, data, etc but the least amount of BS like that with unintended consequences, tests that don't work, data lines that don't apply to the car, etc. Snap on "works". It works the least, does the least, but if you have it, it will probably work.

Any tool with a scope has built in guided component tester. This included, never goes away, is stored on the tool itself no internet needed. Load a vehicle, pick a system. You can have PCM pinouts, connector views of the window switch, description and operation as well as specs for a heated thermostat. This is a massive help. I don't have, and I know many techs who don't have, a personal computer terminal. So when some slug is clogging up the terminal eating their 3rd lunch, I need to corral them away, and keep them away, from my service info. Identifix does not play nice with our printers, having lots of formatting issues. This means trying to print something may take several attempts, and there is still a possibilty you will not have a usable document. People will close your data/diagrams to do their work. "oh did you need that open?". So this is an immensely powerful tool to minimize having to fight for shared resources. This is also super useful when you're 250' from a computer, laying on your back. This leads into the next thing - While other brands have brought in their own, I'll just throw out the integrated scope. I now have a windows tablet with a picoscope, but that Zues can be my service info, scanner, I can take a resistance measurement, 4 channel lab scope, it's just very helpful. I can grab two leads, a current clamp, and the zeus and that's bascially any and all diagnostic tools you may need for most jobs.


Snap on is probably the easiest to learn, as their menus are formatted very similar brand by brand. While other brands have improved, snap on graphing is probably the best resolution. That and autel/launch won't always let you graph switched inputs and other yes/no sort of data which is infuriating when trying to relate various points of data to one another.


IMO you really need all 3 major brands. If I can't do it with that, I'm dead in the water because I've decided I am not willing to buy a J2534 device personally. Not worth it, too many hoops to use it, etc. That and the ROI I've calculated is super ******. Snap on is way too expensive, but what it does well with, it is amazing.

Couldn’t agree more with all points. Having pinouts and service data for components test all on the tool is mega.

You really need to have all the scan tools. You sometimes run into things with a scanner where the other one does it better or faster. Tend to use Autel for more can bus diag as the topology is really helpful to see what networks are down. But they absolutely **** for programming and waking up modules, snap on is great at that.


We keep them all updated to current specs. Just recently picked up the 8 channel ATS u-scope elite - wow what an amazing tool that one is.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Couldn’t agree more with all points. Having pinouts and service data for components test all on the tool is mega.

You really need to have all the scan tools. You sometimes run into things with a scanner where the other one does it better or faster. Tend to use Autel for more can bus diag as the topology is really helpful to see what networks are down. But they absolutely **** for programming and waking up modules, snap on is great at that.


We keep them all updated to current specs. Just recently picked up the 8 channel ATS u-scope elite - wow what an amazing tool that one is.

Snap on failed me today for an AFR balance test on a honda. Autel had it, and 3 injectors failed. They declined anyway, and declined the battery, and the tires.


How do you like the ATS interface versus snap on scopes or picoscope? Did you buy just the scope, or the whole thing with the tablet and engine analyzer? Complements to you for finding justification for buying that. I looked at ATS but the industry preference seems to be Pico which gave me more confidence in that. Between the zeus (used), about 2k worth of asian tools, pico and tablet - that's probably less than what you have wrapped up in that E-scope. It's hard as an employee to justify all of the expense because if you guess wrong you have a lot of money ******* and nothing to show for it. When you have 10K+ of your paycheck sitting in a locker hoping you can make ROI it's tough. I kind of get it why people don't invest in tooling because for a lot of techs it simply isn't possible, they don't make enough to buy it regardless of the ROI.

It's hard for me because I take failing to fix a car and do it effectively very personally. So that gives me a significant incentive to tool up. But people like me help prevent shops from going under like the market needs them to, as the whole "tech supplies the tools" thing is banging into the realities of tech pay versus what needs invested to have even basic competence in repairs. Even bargain hunting I would say 50k doesn't go very far in tools, and the shops act like they have big money ******* in an AC machine or two or a new wheel balancer.

 

[olsenmotorsports]

Snap on failed me today for an AFR balance test on a honda. Autel had it, and 3 injectors failed. They declined anyway, and declined the battery, and the tires.


How do you like the ATS interface versus snap on scopes or picoscope? Did you buy just the scope, or the whole thing with the tablet and engine analyzer? Complements to you for finding justification for buying that. I looked at ATS but the industry preference seems to be Pico which gave me more confidence in that. Between the zeus (used), about 2k worth of asian tools, pico and tablet - that's probably less than what you have wrapped up in that E-scope. It's hard as an employee to justify all of the expense because if you guess wrong you have a lot of money ******* and nothing to show for it. When you have 10K+ of your paycheck sitting in a locker hoping you can make ROI it's tough. I kind of get it why people don't invest in tooling because for a lot of techs it simply isn't possible, they don't make enough to buy it regardless of the ROI.

It's hard for me because I take failing to fix a car and do it effectively very personally. So that gives me a significant incentive to tool up. But people like me help prevent shops from going under like the market needs them to, as the whole "tech supplies the tools" thing is banging into the realities of tech pay versus what needs invested to have even basic competence in repairs. Even bargain hunting I would say 50k doesn't go very far in tools, and the shops act like they have big money ******* in an AC machine or two or a new wheel balancer.

Full clarity - I am a business owner at Olsen Motorsports (IG @olsenmotorsport ) so I bought it for my business which is how I justified it! We are a Porsche workshop in Chicago.

The interface is actually unreal. So simple to use. Bought the whole kit with the intelligent engine analyzer. The deep record function is a game changer and it is just so easy to use. Also have a 4 channel Pico and a Vantage Ultra for other scopes. The ability to hook up all circuits and overlay them at once in deep record saves hours a week IMHO. But to each his own.

If I had to do it all over? ATS and Zeus and base Autel is really all you need. If you can’t figure it out with those it’s time to pick another trade!

On another note - as a business owner it infuriates me to hear techs buying your own special tools. I mean unless you really want to thats fine. But the financial responsibility of anything other than tool truck tools is on the workshops dime. Every tech should be provided with their kits. That’s how we run things.

 

[danski0224]

On another note - as a business owner it infuriates me to hear techs buying your own special tools. I mean unless you really want to thats fine. But the financial responsibility of anything other than tool truck tools is on the workshops dime. Every tech should be provided with their kits. That’s how we run things.

Maybe @2ndGearRubber should consider moving

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Maybe @2ndGearRubber should consider moving

Unfortunately I already bought all the tools. I'd imagine with his attitude 50%+ of my box is specialty tools. Hell I have my own transmission jack, cheapie but it works. I'd prefer the shop buy something, anything, but lucky for me I like tools (and don't share) so it eases the burden so long as I can produce a solid ROI. Which because I don't share, and others don't buy, I typically get that ROI.


Sounds like Olsen Motorsports is the type of shop that will thrive despite the changes the industry faces. Frankly the fact he's using a scope is evidence enough. It simply isn't reasonable to have techs buy all of this stuff, they won't do it. Flip side is if you want to make any money, you essentially have to because the business doesn't own a scan tool, break out box, wheel bearing tools, or any pullers. When you're paid by the job and what you can produce that stonewalls you pretty fast to not have any tools. Again, back to the tech shortage.

 

[olsenmotorsports]

Unfortunately I already bought all the tools. I'd imagine with his attitude 50%+ of my box is specialty tools. Hell I have my own transmission jack, cheapie but it works. I'd prefer the shop buy something, anything, but lucky for me I like tools (and don't share) so it eases the burden so long as I can produce a solid ROI. Which because I don't share, and others don't buy, I typically get that ROI.


Sounds like Olsen Motorsports is the type of shop that will thrive despite the changes the industry faces. Frankly the fact he's using a scope is evidence enough. It simply isn't reasonable to have techs buy all of this stuff, they won't do it. Flip side is if you want to make any money, you essentially have to because the business doesn't own a scan tool, break out box, wheel bearing tools, or any pullers. When you're paid by the job and what you can produce that stonewalls you pretty fast to not have any tools. Again, back to the tech shortage.

Sounds to me like future business ownership is in your future plans! if it isn’t it darn better be! You are going to be just fine!
No Tech shortage here in the CHI. I think that is because we are such a large city and a small store (11 total staff) my guys are definitely out there!

Speaking of tech shortage, that is on the owners. The workforce has evolved across all industries in the last 4 years, and the auto space is very far behind. Shortage of talented tradesman (like police etc) is a real problem as it isn’t a career path that has an allure to it anymore, As owners, if we want to protect our investment, we have to change that. We have to make the trades great again. That starts with culture first and foremost, changing the perceived narrative of what the auto trade is. Leadership is top down, and starts with accountability. Instead of blaming the shortage on the workers, I blame it on the owners. Every single one of my peers complains about it, instead of putting their efforts and energy into changing the narrative in our space, you can talk about it or you can do something about it.

I am not trying to boast here, just pointing out. We have 4 day work weeks, 20% over top industry pay, complimentary health/401k benefits, 3 weeks PTO, buy all the tools, hell we even have potted plants and a full time cleaning staff In our workshop. My point is, who does that??? That’s the issue. If more owners jumped on that band wagon, and then marketed it, things would be much different.

If ownership accross the industry stopped being selfish and worrying about the almighty dollar and created a safe enjoyable haven for both customers and employees alike things will change. Master that and you will make more money than you could spend. Works for us.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Sounds to me like future business ownership is in your future plans! if it isn’t it darn better be! You are going to be just fine!
No Tech shortage here in the CHI. I think that is because we are such a large city and a small store (11 total staff) my guys are definitely out there!

Speaking of tech shortage, that is on the owners. The workforce has evolved across all industries in the last 4 years, and the auto space is very far behind. Shortage of talented tradesman (like police etc) is a real problem as it isn’t a career path that has an allure to it anymore, As owners, if we want to protect our investment, we have to change that. We have to make the trades great again. That starts with culture first and foremost, changing the perceived narrative of what the auto trade is. Leadership is top down, and starts with accountability. Instead of blaming the shortage on the workers, I blame it on the owners. Every single one of my peers complains about it, instead of putting their efforts and energy into changing the narrative in our space, you can talk about it or you can do something about it.

I am not trying to boast here, just pointing out. We have 4 day work weeks, 20% over top industry pay, complimentary health/401k benefits, 3 weeks PTO, buy all the tools, hell we even have potted plants and a full time cleaning staff In our workshop. My point is, who does that??? That’s the issue. If more owners jumped on that band wagon, and then marketed it, things would be much different.

If ownership accross the industry stopped being selfish and worrying about the almighty dollar and created a safe enjoyable haven for both customers and employees alike things will change. Master that and you will make more money than you could spend. Works for us.

Sounds like you need to be a guest in Changing the Industry podcast.

"We have to take care of our people, so they can take care of the customers", or something along those lines certainly applies. Good on you, doing the right thing for your people and the customers. As you seem to obvious evidence of, IT WORKS. How many shops are shopping for ATS scopes? Well if they aren't, and they'd like to have that kind of revenue, there is a path to do that.

 

[rust in the eye]

@olsenmotorsports
You have chosen a very good niche market.
Sadly, many talented guys are twirling wrenches on insufferable shitboxes with owners that can't bear to part with a dime.
Sounds like 2ndGear Rubber could be one of them.
@2ndGearRubber
The above's shop is in a very nice suburb and winters here are probably milder than Pittsburgh.

 

[richfinn]

Sounds to me like future business ownership is in your future plans! if it isn’t it darn better be! You are going to be just fine!
No Tech shortage here in the CHI. I think that is because we are such a large city and a small store (11 total staff) my guys are definitely out there!

Speaking of tech shortage, that is on the owners. The workforce has evolved across all industries in the last 4 years, and the auto space is very far behind. Shortage of talented tradesman (like police etc) is a real problem as it isn’t a career path that has an allure to it anymore, As owners, if we want to protect our investment, we have to change that. We have to make the trades great again. That starts with culture first and foremost, changing the perceived narrative of what the auto trade is. Leadership is top down, and starts with accountability. Instead of blaming the shortage on the workers, I blame it on the owners. Every single one of my peers complains about it, instead of putting their efforts and energy into changing the narrative in our space, you can talk about it or you can do something about it.

I am not trying to boast here, just pointing out. We have 4 day work weeks, 20% over top industry pay, complimentary health/401k benefits, 3 weeks PTO, buy all the tools, hell we even have potted plants and a full time cleaning staff In our workshop. My point is, who does that??? That’s the issue. If more owners jumped on that band wagon, and then marketed it, things would be much different.

If ownership accross the industry stopped being selfish and worrying about the almighty dollar and created a safe enjoyable haven for both customers and employees alike things will change. Master that and you will make more money than you could spend. Works for us.

Do you need any older British staff?

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Talked with my dealer today.

Zeus+ looks like it uses the same square shaped USB to connect to the scope thay Pico does, so if I were to buy the Jarhead Diagnostics scope mount I could use a Pico cable to have a nice clean setup. Jarhead doesn't show the rear mount area, and I think it would block the VCI holder if you left the scope on 24/7 as God intended.

This makes the Zeus + more like my pico setup. I dislike this.

If I were to bundle the zeus+ with the mobile work center purchase, it takes another 500 off from the financing rebate. So that takes the tool to 4k put of pocket.

The tool comes updated, but my data plan would need to remain paid monthly to keep Suretrack updated. Also annoying.


I am have been thinking about the windows7 Zeus and how long a windows tablet can survive before it has a failure. I'm pretty soft on the deal for the time being, but I need to keep my eyes out because having a windows 7 tool 5 years from now may not be ideal.

 

[olsenmotorsports]

Sounds like you need to be a guest in Changing the Industry podcast.

"We have to take care of our people, so they can take care of the customers", or something along those lines certainly applies. Good on you, doing the right thing for your people and the customers. As you seem to obvious evidence of, IT WORKS. How many shops are shopping for ATS scopes? Well if they aren't, and they'd like to have that kind of revenue, there is a path to do that.

If people would listen right?

@olsenmotorsports
You have chosen a very good niche market.
Sadly, many talented guys are twirling wrenches on insufferable shitboxes with owners that can't bear to part with a dime.
Sounds like 2ndGear Rubber could be one of them.
@2ndGearRubber
The above's shop is in a very nice suburb and winters here are probably milder than Pittsburgh.

Appreciate that! Caveat to that - cleanliness is free - customer service is free - attitude, empathy, and accountability also don’t cost you a dollar. All that if done consistently can make you a lot of cash in any market, even the shitbox market!

Do you need any older British staff?

Ha! All full at the moment - we are however ISO an apprentice for our metal working department. Great opportunity there. Have one of IMO the best metal shapers in the business on staff. Really talented kid and a great opportunity for someone who wants to learn,

 

[Wrench97]

Talked with my dealer today.

Zeus+ looks like it uses the same square shaped USB to connect to the scope thay Pico does, so if I were to buy the Jarhead Diagnostics scope mount I could use a Pico cable to have a nice clean setup. Jarhead doesn't show the rear mount area, and I think it would block the VCI holder if you left the scope on 24/7 as God intended.

This makes the Zeus + more like my pico setup. I dislike this.

If I were to bundle the zeus+ with the mobile work center purchase, it takes another 500 off from the financing rebate. So that takes the tool to 4k put of pocket.

The tool comes updated, but my data plan would need to remain paid monthly to keep Suretrack updated. Also annoying.


I am have been thinking about the windows7 Zeus and how long a windows tablet can survive before it has a failure. I'm pretty soft on the deal for the time being, but I need to keep my eyes out because having a windows 7 tool 5 years from now may not be ideal.

Win7 is already out of support for the PC platform I'm not sure how much longer it'll be supported in imbedded platform.
Something to think about if you have it connected to a network for any reason.

Scott have seen any of Royalty Autos videos he uses the ATS tablet a lot>

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Win7 is already out of support for the PC platform I'm not sure how much longer it'll be supported in imbedded platform.
Something to think about if you have it connected to a network for any reason.

Scott have seen any of Royalty Autos videos he uses the ATS tablet a lot>

Yes, I follow Royalty on Tiktok. I'd love to play with an ATS, but I have a Pico4425 on a windows tablet, plus the 4 channel/meter on the Zeus. There's no ROI left to make off of that when all I did today was 3 axles worth of brakes and 2 state inspections. Having multiple scopes is like having multiple scan tools, you can leave them between cars while doing stuff which is nice. I try to use the Pico more now that it's on the tablet. Uscope is mostly just retired unless I need a quick current ramp or something very basic. Usually the zeus is available so I just use that instead.

Basically if I buy everything at once, 4k out of pocket for the Zeus+ and 3.5k (out the door) for the mobile work center, probably there's some tax not accounted for on the Zeus+. This is on 60/90 same as cash unless I try to weasel into one of my dealers spots for 12/months same as cash which would be convenient.



I just cannot get over the scope, it drives me nuts. Absolutely up a wall. It's nearly their best feature and they screwed it all up. I'm going to do some research into the Jarhead Diagnostics mounting system for the scope. I am connected to the internet for Suretrack, secure gateway, etc but I don't use the browser or things like that. My main concern is that anything running windows 7, in addition to being vulnerable/unsupported, is just old tech and I don't want it to just die one day like old tech seems to do. That said, my snap on tools have had excellent hardware with no issues, so maybe that's unfounded.