Snap-On tools and metal used

[William Payne]

Most Common Alloying Elements in Steel | Diehl Tool Steel, Inc.

Read about how various elements affect the composition, quality & hardness of steel. Then talk to us about the right steel alloy for your application.

www.diehlsteel.com

 

[_brian_]

So yeah, their metallurgy is top notch and Id expect no less. Boron or not, who cares? And I cant imagine SO telling a complete stranger what materials theyre using, metal, rubber or other, the business is way too competitive.

I tried in the past to get the material used for the "rubber" insert in the Blue-Point spark plug sockets. I was denied the request, stating that is is proprietary. The only reason I was going to give this a shot is that they already provided at least come collaterals on the metal used... so asking them to verify/confirm what they already said vs asking to disclose something new is very different.

What was of interest to me specifically here was the apparent denial of the claim they used CrNiMoB, nothing more. I am no expert, so I can only use what I read online, but 4140 does not seem to use any tangible amount of nickel or boron. If I check here for example, they state at least what I Can believe to be a base formula for 4140. While it does state in the page that Nickel is a commonly used material, it is not appearing on the chart for 4140.

AISI 4140 Alloy Steel (UNS G41400)

Alloy steels are designated by AISI four-digit numbers. They comprise different kinds of steels having composition exceeding the limitations of B, C, Mn, Mo, Ni, Si, Cr, and Va set for carbon steels.

www.azom.com

Why? Again with disclaimer to my knowledge levels, here..."Boron steel refers to steel alloyed with a small amount of boron, usually less than 1%. The addition of boron to steel greatly increases the hardenability of the resulting alloy.". Nickel seems to be used more for corrosion resistance than hardening. So, for me, it tells me that extra effort is used to improve the "standard" AISI formula. At face value, what does it all mean? I personally have no idea, but it does seem to provide some form of proof and support for Snap-On's claims of tough steel, vs a brand just stating something like ... we use premium hardened steel ... which has basically no meaning at all at face value.

Does it really matter? No, but it sure is interesting to know what top brands to in their efforts to provide better tools and why they do it. It can also show some reasoning for the higher prices of the tools. While this is a silly comparison at best... I would not pay the same for a "carbon steel" wrench set as I would for a "CrV" wrench set. Would I pay more for a "CrNiMoB" over a "CrV' wrench set, well, nothing else considered, yes, because the steel used at least has the potential to be better and costs the company more to produce, so there should be a good reason they are increasing their costs. While both of those terms are still slightly vague, if a brand used something better than regular carbon steel, they would not state just carbon steel, they would state the better allow formulation they use. So I think it all plays a part, some factors more than others.

For me, another part of this issue is the few Snap-On tools I do have, I purchased both from perception of quality and from their statements of using a better steel than others. So it is would have turned out that their socket are just the same old 4140 as all others, well, manufacturing and hardening processes have improved a lot, making any advantages that the process adds to the same steel less of a factor. Just as someone might assume that A USA made tool is better than a Taiwan made tool. Is it, well, odds will say likely yes, but I have sure used some USA made junk, so only one factor is not enough to tell anything by.

 

[Jacobs976]

You could probably take a socket or whatever (plating ground off a spot) to a scrap yard or pawn shop if you're friendly with the staff and have them use an XRF machine to test the composition.

Calls/emails to SO don't get anywhere because the associates only have as much info as you do. Same with drivers, they're provided some info but they don't have access to much more than what's on the site and that extra bit is just advertising material(sometimes out of date).

Don't know what the foundries use but I know some test to .0001% for carbon content so it's probably the same process but more expensive (due to the accuracy) so you'd have approximately the same results as the papers the foundry would send SO for QC. Basically confirm what's in the steel but only a rough percentage.

 

[rooster59]

https://www.tekton.com/blog/crmo-or-crv-steel

From Tekton: The manufacturing method can also affect our material selection. For example, the variation on chromium-vanadium called 50BV30 contains boron and works better for some tools forged in a cold state. The addition of boron allows the steel to be soft for cold forging and then, after forging, highly hardenable through heat treating.

 

[_brian_]

You could probably take a socket or whatever (plating ground off a spot) to a scrap yard or pawn shop if you're friendly with the staff and have them use an XRF machine to test the composition.

Calls/emails to SO don't get anywhere because the associates only have as much info as you do. Same with drivers, they're provided some info but they don't have access to much more than what's on the site and that extra bit is just advertising material(sometimes out of date).

Don't know what the foundries use but I know some test to .0001% for carbon content so it's probably the same process but more expensive (due to the accuracy) so you'd have approximately the same results as the papers the foundry would send SO for QC. Basically confirm what's in the steel but only a rough percentage.

Yeah, I noticed this trying to contact them, this why I expanded my research vs relying on one source. I am all good relying on the information I had, as it seems to make sense. I was primarily interested in what was stated as a disagreement, that they are not adding nickel and boron and it is simply 4140.

I dont think it is worth too much additional trouble at this point. At some point, even the most skeptical people have to trust someone, company, or other. Prior to the statement made, I had no reason to doubt Snap-Ons claim on the material provided, so given that it appears that the 4140 statement actually applies to impact tools vs chrome, while I would be interested to learn more, I think going further reaches a point of diminishing returns without further reason. I will ask the driver for sure, see what he has to say, but from my last email to corporate for support, I got what seemed to be a foreign outsourced service and it took me extra time to even get my request denied for the rubber material used on the rubber inserts. The rep had no idea and had to pass on the request.... also supporting what you state, they have no real information aside from the general stuff.

EDIT: I can share... from glancing through the Snap-On catalogs... I find chrome tool statements to be "special alloy steel" and for impact, I see "special steel with higher alloy content", and for Blue-Point, I found the statement of "6130 steel" as it relates to chrome / hand tools.

 

[RedneckWelder]

it’s not like what they are made of is going to matter when y’all farm out the work to a shop while bitching about not being allowed to bring your own parts…

 

[Walkers]

The only odd one out is boron which is just another alloying element.

So basically, what I am hearing is that you have a general reference for alloy steels, but not one that covers the alloy in question.

 

[William Payne]

So basically, what I am hearing is that you have a general reference for alloy steels, but not one that covers the alloy in question.

What I am saying is it could be anything. It could be something Snap-on made up on their own. With out it being tested or Snap-on disclosing it it is just a wild guess.

 

[_brian_]

What I am saying is it could be anything. It could be something Snap-on made up on their own. With out it being tested or Snap-on disclosing it it is just a wild guess.

While I agree mostly, it is not simply a wild guess. It is based on Snap-On material. I would considered it at least an educated guess. On the other side now... the age of that material is not known. It may have been used for a very specific socket or line of sockets, and as it might of been used in that specific promotion, those specifics left off. So it can only be a factor in an educated guess.

I agree with most others here that stated we will never know. However, the CrNiMoB seems reasonably possible all things considered. Again as it relates to hand chrome tools, 4140 seems unlikely, while still remaining possible as it is done by others, although at far lesser costs and nowhere near the toughness of the Snap-On chrome sockets, which is why it is unlikely.

That is just my opinion, derived from the collective responses here. Nickel and boron are used in alloys, we know this, but they are not a part of the base 4140. The Snap-On chrome sockets, as others also stated, are stronger than normal and even have a distinct sound when dropped, which also indicates a difference. I forget how this went, but the pitch had something to do with the steel quality and manufacture process. So that is what led me to believe that they are simply not using the same as all others, multiple sources of proof of differences. These and more of the statements here paint a picture of tangible difference, and the use of nickel and boron in the allow could well be a part of that difference, as the benefits they provide line up with the differences that Snap-On sockets have. Thus, I consider it an educated guess, supported by statements here and Snap-On's own material, combined, not alone. Both sides seem to support the claims of the other.

Also as others have directly and indirectly stated, whether or not the metal is actually CrNiMoB is somewhat irrelevant. There is a clear difference compared to others, so they cannot be doing the same as all others. The important factor, at least to me, is that it is different, providing something additional. So even if it something different, the ideal is that it is not the standard CrV or CrMo used in all the mass production factories that make the tools for most other brands.

 

[VolvoRyan]

Anytime you see a graph without numbers, it's marketing.... not data. More should be suspect than not.

Plus, the only constant here is that Snap-on is Snap-On. Everything else is moving targets. In other words, Mac and Matco are made all over. So, the plot is sorta meaningless.

You could attempt to calibrate/correlate the hardness (Rc) with findings on the Torque Test Channel.

That said, I really Snap-On hand tools.

-Ryan

 

[_brian_]

Plus, the only constant here is that Snap-on is Snap-On. Everything else is moving targets. In other words, Mac and Matco are made all over. So, the plot is sorta meaningless.

I guess for me, it is not pointless. We know that Mac and Matco are mostly rebranded tools, just sold on a tool truck. Snap-On is opposite, where most are self made and some rebranded. So it is interesting to me what it is that they do different on their own tools, that they make.

Example, I have a friend who has a Mac impact, which is clearly just a rebranded IR. He keeps saying he has this amazing Mac impact. For some reason, the chills having a tool truck brand tool means something. To me, it does not, it is the same IR you can buy at a cheaper cost. What matters to me is if that brand is different in some way, aside from a different sticker that triples the price. Granted, there is another factor to a tool truck, service. As a non professional this is not much a factor at all to me. That is why I try to keep the tool truck brand stuff out as much as possible, and thus why Mac and Matco I find no different than any other tool from any other source.

I hope that makes sense, I am not at all bashing a tool truck, they service a purpose that is somewhat unrelated to tool quality. I can go on a tool truck and by a Gearwrench, a Lisle, a Lang, etc... those are all the exact same tools I can buy on Amazon, but will cost me more. But I am paying for the service, not the actual tool. With Snap-On, my interest is that I am paying for both, the added service and a different tool, and it is the difference I try to see and understand. As a non professional, if you offered me the same tool, one Matco and one Husky, I would take the Husky. Easier to get warranty and cheaper. If I had that truck stopping by me each week that would service the tool as needed, well, change of opinion. While I have never been in that position, the logic makes sense.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

FWIW many of the "clearly an IR" impacts from Matco/cornwell are 100% not IR. PTP? makes them. Parts don't interchange, they just look similar.

MAC does rebrand the IR hammerhead impact. MAC mostly shares with its SBD family like FACOM and Proto. Skimming their site I didn't see anything they currently make which looks very IR. Aircat, probably a model or two.

 

[Bubba Fett]

I know Stanley used to have "Boron Steel" stamped on their older 100-plus Screwdrivers. Since that is no longer the case, I assume they switched to a different steel. I imagine economics or simple availability would have a lot to do with that.

Regardless, many tool manufacturers claim propriety steel, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are the only users of said steel. There are thousands of steel types, so it could be true, or it could be marketing.

The only way to know for sure would be to have lab take a look at the chemical composition. I suppose that would require a sacrificial socket.

 

[_brian_]

FWIW many of the "clearly an IR" impacts from Matco/cornwell are 100% not IR. PTP? makes them. Parts don't interchange, they just look similar.

MAC does rebrand the IR hammerhead impact. MAC mostly shares with its SBD family like FACOM and Proto. Skimming their site I didn't see anything they currently make which looks very IR. Aircat, probably a model or two.

I would believe that. In this, I made the statement as the Mac cover is mostly no longer there, leaving the original IR branding, with the same part number as IR offers. I guess the insides still could be different, but it would seem like it just a cover over an IR.

I should have been more clear in my statement. I have not seen many tool truck impact tools, so my reference point was a cover over an IR marked tool. Interesting to know, thanks for clarifying that.

I know Aircat (Florida Pneumatic) is involved with a lot of those too.

EDIT: Also wanted to note that I get there is a difference between "rebranded" and "made by". So just because a tool, say an impact, might be made by "IR" for Mac, that would not mean it is the same

 

[VolvoRyan]

I guess for me, it is not pointless. We know that Mac and Matco are mostly rebranded tools, just sold on a tool truck. Snap-On is opposite, where most are self made and some rebranded. So it is interesting to me what it is that they do different on their own tools, that they make.

Example, I have a friend who has a Mac impact, which is clearly just a rebranded IR. He keeps saying he has this amazing Mac impact. For some reason, the chills having a tool truck brand tool means something. To me, it does not, it is the same IR you can buy at a cheaper cost. What matters to me is if that brand is different in some way, aside from a different sticker that triples the price. Granted, there is another factor to a tool truck, service. As a non professional this is not much a factor at all to me. That is why I try to keep the tool truck brand stuff out as much as possible, and thus why Mac and Matco I find no different than any other tool from any other source.

I hope that makes sense, I am not at all bashing a tool truck, they service a purpose that is somewhat unrelated to tool quality. I can go on a tool truck and by a Gearwrench, a Lisle, a Lang, etc... those are all the exact same tools I can buy on Amazon, but will cost me more. But I am paying for the service, not the actual tool. With Snap-On, my interest is that I am paying for both, the added service and a different tool, and it is the difference I try to see and understand. As a non professional, if you offered me the same tool, one Matco and one Husky, I would take the Husky. Easier to get warranty and cheaper. If I had that truck stopping by me each week that would service the tool as needed, well, change of opinion. While I have never been in that position, the logic makes sense.

I very much share your point of view. I'm just trying to be a tiny bit more critical of the source. It's really hard to get to get the straight dope when there's so much proprietary information going on. The trick is trying to tie the "marketing" to reality somehow.

Snap-On has been really good to me for warranty through email. I had to warranty one thing, and within 30 minutes, what I needed to fix the tool were being FedEx'd to my house. No hassle, no pictures, no questions. I had parts faster than a tool truck could come around.

Of course, my pockets aren't infinitely deep, and there are tools from other brands/manufacturers that I like better than Snap-On.... so there's a lot of not Snap-On here. I'd be crazy otherwise.

-Ryan

 

[woody 73]

I know Stanley used to have "Boron Steel" stamped on their older 100-plus Screwdrivers. Since that is no longer the case, I assume they switched to a different steel. I imagine economics or simple availability would have a lot to do with that.

Regardless, many tool manufacturers claim propriety steel, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are the only users of said steel. There are thousands of steel types, so it could be true, or it could be marketing.

The only way to know for sure would be to have lab take a look at the chemical composition. I suppose that would require a sacrificial socket.

I about fell out of my seat when just this morning I was reading that the new Milwaukee screwdrivers are made with the boron steel...

Milwaukee USA-Made Hand Tools are Launching in Mid-2023

toolguyd.com

 

[_brian_]

I about fell out of my seat when just this morning I was reading that the new Milwaukee screwdrivers are made with the boron steel...

Milwaukee USA-Made Hand Tools are Launching in Mid-2023

toolguyd.com

That is for sure a surprise, considering the original power tools that made the name are no longer USA made.

I very much share your point of view. I'm just trying to be a tiny bit more critical of the source. It's really hard to get to get the straight dope when there's so much proprietary information going on. The trick is trying to tie the "marketing" to reality somehow.

Snap-On has been really good to me for warranty through email. I had to warranty one thing, and within 30 minutes, what I needed to fix the tool were being FedEx'd to my house. No hassle, no pictures, no questions. I had parts faster than a tool truck could come around.

Of course, my pockets aren't infinitely deep, and there are tools from other brands/manufacturers that I like better than Snap-On.... so there's a lot of not Snap-On here. I'd be crazy otherwise.

-Ryan

That makes sense, for sure. I am not as critical on the exact difference, but that there is a difference, a difference that is in some way tangible and that I can understand. So got really interested when the statement of CrNiMoB was challenged with 4140. That seemed to imply to me there there was little to no difference in material, which would mean that the only difference would be processes like heat treatment, which most all quality manufacturers can get close to, if they are shooting for the same target that is.

RE warranty- interesting. My one and only Snap-On warranty experience was the worst warranty experience I had to date. It took 4 months to get a replacement and they wanted a receipt, which I could not provide. I needed to turn it back on them ... I bought the socket from their web site, and when I checked my purchase history, not only did they purge my account due to no recent activity, but even if it still was there, they no longer even keep purchase history that long anyway. So, they approved it. I bought that socket... maybe in 2008 or so and warranty was in approx 2020, five or take a few years on both. The fact that it took so long and they even asked for proof of purchase was a HUGE turn off to me. However, in a Snap-On purchase decision, warranty is not high in that decision process as it is for other brands. Would I buy a Gearwrench, Husky, Mac, Craftsman, Matco, etc with that same level of warranty, not a chance. Also why I dont really care or have interest in what metals they use, because my decision has a higher weight on warranty vs quality. Snap-On is higher on quality than warranty.

I only recently got into contact with the local Snap-On driver, which apparently Snap-On wants to keep the identities of their drivers a closely guarded secret. So for newer interests, I will surely get better service. For Mac and Matco, no local drivers to be found, so zero interest in those products, rebranded import tools, generic materials, twice the cost, no warranty - mix and match those items at random - pass.

 

[Bubba Fett]

That is for sure a surprise, considering the original power tools that made the name are no longer USA made.


That makes sense, for sure. I am not as critical on the exact difference, but that there is a difference, a difference that is in some way tangible and that I can understand. So got really interested when the statement of CrNiMoB was challenged with 4140. That seemed to imply to me there there was little to no difference in material, which would mean that the only difference would be processes like heat treatment, which most all quality manufacturers can get close to, if they are shooting for the same target that is.

RE warranty- interesting. My one and only Snap-On warranty experience was the worst warranty experience I had to date. It took 4 months to get a replacement and they wanted a receipt, which I could not provide. I needed to turn it back on them ... I bought the socket from their web site, and when I checked my purchase history, not only did they purge my account due to no recent activity, but even if it still was there, they no longer even keep purchase history that long anyway. So, they approved it. I bought that socket... maybe in 2008 or so and warranty was in approx 2020, five or take a few years on both. The fact that it took so long and they even asked for proof of purchase was a HUGE turn off to me. However, in a Snap-On purchase decision, warranty is not high in that decision process as it is for other brands. Would I buy a Gearwrench, Husky, Mac, Craftsman, Matco, etc with that same level of warranty, not a chance. Also why I dont really care or have interest in what metals they use, because my decision has a higher weight on warranty vs quality. Snap-On is higher on quality than warranty.

I only recently got into contact with the local Snap-On driver, which apparently Snap-On wants to keep the identities of their drivers a closely guarded secret. So for newer interests, I will surely get better service. For Mac and Matco, no local drivers to be found, so zero interest in those products, rebranded import tools, generic materials, twice the cost, no warranty - mix and match those items at random - pass.

Williams and Proto are the brands you should consider. Williams and Proto have USA-made selections, as well as Taiwan-made, but normally they are clear about COO. Williams' USA tools are basically Snap-on at a discount, sometimes made in the same factories. Same with Proto in relation to Mac. Both companies cater to industrial mechanics, etc.

Wright Tool is another highly regarded brand. Some consider them to be among the best there is. I believe most, if not all of their tools are USA-made. Their screwdrivers and nut drivers were made by Ideal/Pratt-Read, so I expect that to change. My guess is Mayhew will be their new supplier for those.

 

[Wakefield]

I think the "High Performance" flat wrenches such as XDHFM1516 are supposed to be a different steel than the combination wrenches? (Snap On)

 

[_brian_]

Williams and Proto are the brands you should consider. Williams and Proto have USA-made selections, as well as Taiwan-made, but normally they are clear about COO. Williams' USA tools are basically Snap-on at a discount, sometimes made in the same factories. Same with Proto in relation to Mac. Both companies cater to industrial mechanics, etc.

Wright Tool is another highly regarded brand. Some consider them to be among the best there is. I believe most, if not all of their tools are USA-made. Their screwdrivers and nut drivers were made by Ideal/Pratt-Read, so I expect that to change. My guess is Mayhew will be their new supplier for those.

I only have a few Williams, but the story seems to vary... they are the same as Snap-On with a different name on them ... to .... they are made in same factory but are not the same tool. I have often heard that the industrial brands are very nice vs just considering automotive brands. However, I have so few industrial brand tools I cannot really comment on that.

I did not intend for this to become a COO thread. It is not a topic I like even discussing. In my professional experience, neither side fully considers the issues of the other side, and when one side refuses to budge, change must be made to keep things in balance. The CEO wont take a pay cut as he for some reason believes he deserves millions per year, the employees demand higher compensation or they will strike, the customer demand top quality, shareholders (if they exist) demand a profits and dividends (if they exist), etc. Things is, if all sides demand and do not give, all lose. What is most common in the US is that in order to give the compensation increases to employees, staff needs to be cut and production shifted, and quality slightly lowered. I like to use the example of a circle with spokes on the inside. Unless all the spokes are at the same length, weight, size, etc, the wheel fails to perform to its best. Something falls out of balance. While I Am not a mechanic professional, the above is within my profession, but it is not really a GJ type topic.

 

[rancherbill]

I think this is a discussion of marketing hype. It arguing / discussing brochures.

Snapon is flinging factoids to the un-educated. Snapon implies that they are the only company that know what they are doing and they have a staff of tool fairy metallurgist that carefully select steel at the peak of it's freshness to ensure a good tool. I think all the metalugist at other companies would disagree. What I do know is that the objective of tools is durability and strength for their anticipated use.

It is an extremely complicated process that starts with the alloy. It starts with the intended use and anticipated use environment. For example, I have a set of Makita 3/8 impact sockets for my impact driver. They are nice full chrome thin wall sockets. They will never see more than 120 f/lbs. I have other 3/8 that will see 500 f/lbs. There are a million micro tweaks of the alloy along with contaminants from the mining or refining process, Then the manufacturing process, whether it is forged, drawn stamped or rolled. Then there are all the variations on tempering and annealing. At the end, will a tool manufactured by Company A outlast one made by Company B?

 

[Marlin]

I would believe that. In this, I made the statement as the Mac cover is mostly no longer there, leaving the original IR branding, with the same part number as IR offers. I guess the insides still could be different, but it would seem like it just a cover over an IR.

I should have been more clear in my statement. I have not seen many tool truck impact tools, so my reference point was a cover over an IR marked tool. Interesting to know, thanks for clarifying that.

I know Aircat (Florida Pneumatic) is involved with a lot of those too.

EDIT: Also wanted to note that I get there is a difference between "rebranded" and "made by". So just because a tool, say an impact, might be made by "IR" for Mac, that would not mean it is the same

IR never sold Mac an impact that just had a Mac cover over IR branding. There may have been IR logos on internal parts but the exterior housing would have had a molded or cast in Mac logo.

 

[_brian_]

IR never sold Mac an impact that just had a Mac cover over IR branding. There may have been IR logos on internal parts but the exterior housing would have had a molded or cast in Mac logo.

Best I can say is what I saw and what was stated. From the outside, it was clearly IR branded, external parts only, actual parts casing to be specific. As well as Mac branded, on some sort of fitted rubberized piece. So if Mac never sold that, then someone made that, and both brands have the model.... so maybe it was some sort of hybrid repair or rebuild service? No idea, I do not buy Mac tools, they have no value to me. As you are the second person to state an issue with this, I would probably believe that the hybrid repair, faked product or something to that liking is the most likely possibility.

 

[_brian_]

I think this is a discussion of marketing hype. It arguing / discussing brochures.

Snapon is flinging factoids to the un-educated. Snapon implies that they are the only company that know what they are doing and they have a staff of tool fairy metallurgist that carefully select steel at the peak of it's freshness to ensure a good tool. I think all the metalugist at other companies would disagree. What I do know is that the objective of tools is durability and strength for their anticipated use.

It is an extremely complicated process that starts with the alloy. It starts with the intended use and anticipated use environment. For example, I have a set of Makita 3/8 impact sockets for my impact driver. They are nice full chrome thin wall sockets. They will never see more than 120 f/lbs. I have other 3/8 that will see 500 f/lbs. There are a million micro tweaks of the alloy along with contaminants from the mining or refining process, Then the manufacturing process, whether it is forged, drawn stamped or rolled. Then there are all the variations on tempering and annealing. At the end, will a tool manufactured by Company A outlast one made by Company B?

I think I get the gist of what you are saying. This is why I do not consider Snap-On the best and end all for tools, I consider them top of the line tools. Some people believe that, and they are welcome to. I don't think it is all marketing hype though, but to a degree, yes. I say that because there is fact that supports the overall superiority of Snap-On tools. I see it as if the words are true and the results are better than others, then it is not just hype but fact that shows why they are better.

I 100% agree with your last statement "At the end, will a tool manufactured by Company A outlast one made by Company B?", but I would also add to it, both tools otherwise being equal in form, fit, function, etc. That statement also depends on the user and how how the tools is used.... also warranty, in the intended use, can you afford to get it replaced under warranty or will that time without the tool be problematic? That is at least how I relate that good statement to a buying decision.

I relate that info to the specific tool. Tools like pullers tend to have issues lasting the test of time. For those, quality matters to me, assuming it is a tool I plan to use again. So take a product like a ball joint press. You can get a cheap HF one, and while I have never used one, I hear from many they bend, stretch, the forcing screw strips, etc. Other companies state they resist this. So when they talk about the differences in their product, this means something to me.

1. My product will not bend, it is better.
2. My product will not bend, we use this and that, heat threat this and that way, etc.

One of those is easier to believe as the statement is justified. Hype, sure, but if it is true, hype becomes fact. It is then up to the person to determine if that creates value. I relate the Snap-On material provided to be more like #2 above, which is why it matters to me. Every brand uses premium, quality, superior, etc steel, but say nothing to justify it. Most just after all that state CrV steel. That is like #1, statements that say a lot and show nothing. Every brand on the store shelf uses CrV steel and they all use the "best"... yet they are all likely using the same steel and the same processes.

Regarding hype, I agree though that Snap-On is a lot of hype. If I swap tools with a professional with all Snap-On tools, is that going to make by work suddenly better and theirs suddenly worse? It might make the professional's job a bit harder for them, but the person does the work, not the tools. I see a lot of hype with people on YouTube, the people that boat about having a Snap-On toolbox filled with all Snap-On tools. Then, they show the tools they do not have and need to borrow from coworkers, which happen to be NOT Snap-On.

 

[Marlin]

Best I can say is what I saw and what was stated. From the outside, it was clearly IR branded, external parts only, actual parts casing to be specific. As well as Mac branded, on some sort of fitted rubberized piece. So if Mac never sold that, then someone made that, and both brands have the model.... so maybe it was some sort of hybrid repair or rebuild service? No idea, I do not buy Mac tools, they have no value to me. As you are the second person to state an issue with this, I would probably believe that the hybrid repair, faked product or something to that liking is the most likely possibility.

Sounds like someone put a Mac branded boot on an IR tool.

Also, Snap-on is not lying to you about the material, they are using 86B30 which is a CrMo steel with boron.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

. So take a product like a ball joint press. You can get a cheap HF one, and while I have never used one, I hear from many they bend, stretch, the forcing screw strips, etc. Other companies state they resist this. So when they talk about the differences in their product, this means something to me.

1. My product will not bend, it is better.
2. My product will not bend, we use this and that, heat threat this and that way, etc.

One of those is easier to believe as the statement is justified. Hype, sure, but if it is true, hype becomes fact. It is then up to the person to determine if that creates value. I relate the Snap-On material provided to be more like #2 above, which is why it matters to me. Every brand uses premium, quality, superior, etc steel, but say nothing to justify it. Most just after all that state CrV steel. That is like #1, statements that say a lot and show nothing. Every brand on the store shelf uses CrV steel and they all use the "best"... yet they are all likely using the same steel and the same processes.

Regarding hype, I agree though that Snap-On is a lot of hype. If I swap tools with a professional with all Snap-On tools, is that going to make by work suddenly better and theirs suddenly worse? It might make the professional's job a bit harder for them, but the person does the work, not the tools. I see a lot of hype with people on YouTube, the people that boat about having a Snap-On toolbox filled with all Snap-On tools. Then, they show the tools they do not have and need to borrow from coworkers, which happen to be NOT Snap-On.

Neither statement is true of the snap on ball joint press. I have one and at times it flexes significantly.
If it broke I'd for sure get another, because it's still twice as good as the competition.

Not the case with all their stuff. I have their mid box in my Huot stack, and theres no immediately discernable difference in quality of operation between the two.

 

[_brian_]

Sounds like someone put a Mac branded boot on an IR tool.

Also, Snap-on is not lying to you about the material, they are using 86B20 which is a CrMo steel with boron.

Thanks for a confirmation of the material used. Since I dont actually know what that meant, I looked it up:

86B20 Steel

CCT, TTT, TTS, TTP diagrams of steels

www.steeldata.info

So that means the blend is:
Chemical composition in weight %: 0.22% C, 0.76% Mn, 0.51% Cr, 0.20% Mo, 0.57% Ni, 0.0025% B
Steel group: Boron steels

Looking at just the figures at hand, that would qualify for CrNiMoB, even in the order of % used. What I also find interesting is that most use vanadium vs molybdenum for the chrome tools, where as here they are instead using nickel and boron with the molybdenum. I am simply pointing out what I See, I have no idea the actual different that makes.

 

[_brian_]

Neither statement is true of the snap on ball joint press. I have one and at times it flexes significantly.
If it broke I'd for sure get another, because it's still twice as good as the competition.

Not the case with all their stuff. I have their mid box in my Huot stack, and theres no immediately discernable difference in quality of operation between the two.

I was not making any sort of comparison directly with Snap-On, I left out brands and details out intentionally. Intent of a generic illustration. The only comparison I can provide is that I used 2 different rentals to try and remove a ball joint, both flexing and failing to do so I purchased the Astro one, it did not flex and got the job done. Interesting though that Snap-On flexes like the cheaper ones...

EDIT: The rental brands were I believe Hyper Tough and OEMTools.

 

[neophyte]

I know Stanley used to have "Boron Steel" stamped on their older 100-plus Screwdrivers. Since that is no longer the case, I assume they switched to a different steel. I imagine economics or simple availability would have a lot to do with that.

Regardless, many tool manufacturers claim propriety steel, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are the only users of said steel. There are thousands of steel types, so it could be true, or it could be marketing.

The only way to know for sure would be to have lab take a look at the chemical composition. I suppose that would require a sacrificial socket.

Boron use may require extra steps by the manufacturer for environmental reasons, although I’m not completely sure of this.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

. Interesting though that Snap-On flexes like the cheaper ones...

It flexes, as most steel does, but at force levels where the others have already broken. I am after all driving it with a 1400ftlb impact.

 

[_brian_]

It flexes, as most steel does, but at force levels where the others have already broken. I am after all driving it with a 1400ftlb impact.

Out of curiosity... what other brands have broke using it in those conditions? I am curious as to the comparison, that is why I came back to edit the rental brands I refer to, to provide some context.

I have no idea what a 1400ftlb impact really means though, as that is a max torque under specific lab conditions. Other things like cfm, line size, psi, etc... all that makes differences. My impact states it as 1100ftlb, so at face value, you are driving harder than I was at the time of my experience. I use 3/8 ID line at 25 foot, can use 50 when needed. The connectors I use are 1/4 NPT 3/8 openings, automotive t-style plugs. I find those work better than the industrial m-style and even the high flow v-style version of it. Personal preference though I think, as I hear many really like the v-style, to me, they are too small in overall size and are prone to breaking easily. I run my tanks wide open, so approx 130 psi at the tank wide to the line, so real working at the tool is likely close to the 90 it asks for, have not measured in a while. I have two 26 gallon tanks with compressors, but I use one for high air volume needs that can provide 6.4 scfm at 90 psi, whereas my other can only provide 3.8 scfm at 90 psi, so I use it for supplemental air (tanks in series) or for lower volume needs like ratchets, tires, inflation, etc.

NOTE: I share the above just to provide context to my experience. I am in no way stating I am doing things right or better than anyone else. As another user recently said, adding length to a post that provides context to statements made is always nice.

 

[Marlin]

Out of curiosity... what other brands have broke using it in those conditions? I am curious as to the comparison, that is why I came back to edit the rental brands I refer to, to provide some context.

I have no idea what a 1400ftlb impact really means though, as that is a max torque under specific lab conditions. Other things like cfm, line size, psi, etc... all that makes differences. My impact states it as 1100ftlb, so at face value, you are driving harder than I was at the time of my experience. I use 3/8 ID line at 25 foot, can use 50 when needed. The connectors I use are 1/4 NPT 3/8 openings, automotive t-style plugs. I find those work better than the industrial m-style and even the high flow v-style version of it. Personal preference though I think, as I hear many really like the v-style, to me, they are too small in overall size and are prone to breaking easily. I run my tanks wide open, so approx 130 psi at the tank wide to the line, so real working at the tool is likely close to the 90 it asks for, have not measured in a while. I have two 26 gallon tanks with compressors, but I use one for high air volume needs that can provide 6.4 scfm at 90 psi, whereas my other can only provide 3.8 scfm at 90 psi, so I use it for supplemental air (tanks in series) or for lower volume needs like ratchets, tires, inflation, etc.

NOTE: I share the above just to provide context to my experience. I am in no way stating I am doing things right or better than anyone else. As another user recently said, adding length to a post that provides context to statements made is always nice.

All manufacturers measure torque output differently. The 1400 and 1100 ft-lb numbers are bolt removal numbers which are different and higher than actual torque output.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

Out of curiosity... what other brands have broke using it in those conditions? I am

The cast looking ones like the part store rents and harbor freight sells. They are probably all out of one or two factories.

have no idea what a 1400ftlb impact really means though, as that is a max torque under specific lab conditions. O

Nah, it's just what it says on the box. It's better than the last one that said 1200, and it will snap truck lugs if you keep hammering long enough.

ther things like cfm, line size, psi, etc... all that makes differences. My impact states it as 1100ftlb, so at face value, you are driving harder than I was at the time of my experience.

I stop when it looks like there's too much stored energy, don't want to be anywhere close if it does let go, not because the wrench won't turn anymore.

I use 3/8 ID line at 25 foot, can use 50 when needed. The connectors I use are 1/4 NPT 3/8 openings, automotive t-style plugs. I find those work better than the industrial m-style and even the high flow v-style version

I use the automotive style as well, but can't recall ever breaking one of any style, always an NPT ****** at the valley of a thread.

 

[_brian_]

All manufacturers measure torque output differently. The 1400 and 1100 ft-lb numbers are bolt removal numbers which are different and higher than actual torque output.

100%. That is why I made the statement of not knowing what 1400ftlb actually means. They are a starting point, but even more so when you cross brands.

When I first got my impact, I recall using the air compressor with the provided air line and couplers, and also setting the gauge on the compressor to 90 psi, thinking that is where I set it. It is a night and day difference changing just those few things. Point = far to many variables on just the basic things a user can change. Next, I want to change out the lines for air out of the tank and replace the factory regulator.

Most people I know are not feeding their air tools with the stated air requirements. So I do not ask to sound rude, just to get a baseline. Even a 2000ftlb rated gun will be a bum if you are only feeding it 50 psi from a 5 gallon pancake compressor. Remember that most people I know are working out of their home, so no real shop air or even a home user type compressor with restrictions removed.

The cast looking ones like the part store rents and harbor freight sells. They are probably all out of one or two factories.

Ahh, so the same basic comparisons I have. Makes sense. Have you broken one in the past? Again, only curious. In my experience, I have not broken any, however, the bend/flex of the c-clamp portion made the tool unusable, and yes it did go back to its regular shape so the deformation was not preeminent, just flex. The problem I had is the force started to apply unevenly, that was enough for me to stop. While I cannot say for sure what will happen, I just pictured in my head the flexing and stressing of metal suddenly snapping, causing metal parts flying around. I consider that to be "did not get the job done". I guess flex would be fine, as long as I did not see sideways movement, where the uneven pressure is visible to the plain eye. I consider the Astro a success as I did not have that experience, and the ball joints were successfully removed and installed.

I use the automotive style as well, but can't recall ever breaking one of any style, always an NPT ****** at the valley of a thread.

I find those to work best. I like they have a bit of extra size. They have always worked well for me. I ordered a box of the v-style industrial Milton connector ends, Amazon had 10 for like $1.44 (yes, one dollar and 44 cents) so I could see them. They are surprisingly small in size. I again think it is just preference and also what has worked for me. I also do not use leader or whip hoses, I connect the hose directly to the air tool with an installed male coupler end. I know that is not "proper", but oh well.

 

[_brian_]

While this moves slight off of the Snap-On steel topic, it does tie into statements to the fact that Snap-On s not the only innovator and uses of good steel. I read that Nepros uses 5GQ steel:

```
KTC has spent years working in cooperation with one of the world's leading manufacturers of special steel to develop a new material that boasts a finely-tuned balance of strength and durability. The result is 5GQ. Combined technology using hard chrome plating, 5GQ Steel has launched Nepros tools onto the cutting edge of professional innovation. We're setting the standard for quality to ensure that you get the reliability you need from your tools.
```
I have not found much yet on this steel, but it stated to be "strong as titanium".

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

What gentleman would not be seen in GQ?
It's been around quite awhile but doesn't seem to have revolutionized the industry.

I'm in no way saying Nepros isn't good, it taking ordinary and giving it a special name is some of the oldest marketing **** in the book. Look how many different names for chrome alloy steel came out in the 30s

 

[_brian_]

It's been around quite awhile

It is interesting to see that top brands that strive to set themselves apart are using "special" steels, vs the standard steels that others use. I wonder how much difference it actually makes. I am sure there is some tangible difference in the end result, but to what level? Also, how much of that difference is related to the steel. Although I would guess that a different steel requires a different type of heat treatment, so it might not be such a simply question to answer. If I could afford one of their ratchets, I would try one for sure.

Does anyone have first hand experience on the strength of tools of that metal vs the ones from the Snap-On, assumed CrNiMoB? Meaning that while there might be a different on paper, does any of that carry over to an actual difference in use?

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

. I am sure there is some tangible difference in the end result,

Why? Occam's razor says it's easier to put a name on a feature you already have and try to sell it.

 

[_brian_]

Why? Occam's razor says it's easier to put a name on a feature you already have and try to sell it.

Meaning that if they are using different steel, even from each other, there must be some reason. Whether that is increased strength, lighter weight, lower cost, or whatever, I would think there is some reason to use something that is not the norm.... good or bad... then use marketing to justify it and sell it.

EDIT: I think most brands do as you suggest already. Nearly all brands state they have a special chroming process, which is more than likely just a bunch of fancy names that describe the same thing. But that is different names to describe the same, or what is already there as you suggest. In this case, it seems that we are not talking about just names for the same thing, but different things. I could also be wrong, using only the information provided. Thus, asking for any firs hand, real world experience. I have seen for too many times that things are different, on paper. But in reality, those differences are never realized.

I make that statement referring to the shiny chrome plating we see all over the US here. I have recently learned that the satin / nickel finish that is more common in the EU area is not only better looking, but also more durable and less likely to chip. So, I exclude that plating here, just the shiny polished chrome.

 

[neophyte]

The steel alloy isn’t the only thing that matters.
The way the steel is processed from the ray bar, to the finished shape also matters, as does the heat treating process, then the finish that is put on the wrench.
Changing the steel alloy could not only be to produce a “better” finished tool, it might also be used to make fabricating the wrench easier or more consistent.
Alloying elements might be changed to make machining easier.