diesel research
Well-known member
http://store.harryepstein.com/merch...=CTGY&Store_Code=1930&Category_Code=WilliamsD
He's a member of this site
http://www.toolsdelivered.com/Combination_c_2368.html
He is also a member
Snap On vs. Williams
- Thread starter Guzzi
- Start date
http://store.harryepstein.com/merch...=CTGY&Store_Code=1930&Category_Code=WilliamsD
He's a member of this site
http://www.toolsdelivered.com/Combination_c_2368.html
He is also a member
As far as I know, those screwdrivers could be 100% identical besides the stamp, but I find it hard to believe. Now consider this: it is true that a good portion of the cost of snap on is probably their distribution network. It is also very easy to understand, as a manufacturer & "part specifier", that small differences can add to the price very quickly.
Buying steel with different alloys or property improving processes can add to the cost very quickly. It can also add to the cost of subsequent operations like grinding, buffing, and finishing. I can reasonably expect that if Joe Blow makes a strong, quality tool to the best of his ability, and John Doe decides that he's going to make one 10% stronger, that he might end up spending twice as much as Joe to get there because of extra trouble to get higher than typical properties.
It is also true that plastics (handle) can have vastly different properties & costs, and one would still be just as black as another. And two pieces of metal can have the same hardness but have different yield & ultimate strength, ductility, elasticity, etc.
I would love to get my hands on the drawings for each of those screwdrivers. It appears that the dimensions will be exactly the same. You'd have to look at the material call out, tolerances, and process notes to be 100% sure.
My guess is that these are made on the exact tooling that the Snap On ones were made on. But tooling wears. It is very possible that once the tooling was in the later stages of its life cycle that instead of making new tooling, Snap On went to a new style that they thought would be better, but knew the tooling could still produce quality tools so they used it for the Williams line. Also, the cost of said tooling would surely be rolled up into Snap On's pricing from day one. Also when they set their pricing on day one, I seriously doubt they would have saved some of the tooling cost to be spread out over batches of williams tools after they stopped using it. My guess is the williams drivers are priced without much of that overhead included, and that once that tooling starts producing out of tolerance tools, you'll see that line go away.
Buying steel with different alloys or property improving processes can add to the cost very quickly. It can also add to the cost of subsequent operations like grinding, buffing, and finishing. I can reasonably expect that if Joe Blow makes a strong, quality tool to the best of his ability, and John Doe decides that he's going to make one 10% stronger, that he might end up spending twice as much as Joe to get there because of extra trouble to get higher than typical properties.
It is also true that plastics (handle) can have vastly different properties & costs, and one would still be just as black as another. And two pieces of metal can have the same hardness but have different yield & ultimate strength, ductility, elasticity, etc.
I would love to get my hands on the drawings for each of those screwdrivers. It appears that the dimensions will be exactly the same. You'd have to look at the material call out, tolerances, and process notes to be 100% sure.
My guess is that these are made on the exact tooling that the Snap On ones were made on. But tooling wears. It is very possible that once the tooling was in the later stages of its life cycle that instead of making new tooling, Snap On went to a new style that they thought would be better, but knew the tooling could still produce quality tools so they used it for the Williams line. Also, the cost of said tooling would surely be rolled up into Snap On's pricing from day one. Also when they set their pricing on day one, I seriously doubt they would have saved some of the tooling cost to be spread out over batches of williams tools after they stopped using it. My guess is the williams drivers are priced without much of that overhead included, and that once that tooling starts producing out of tolerance tools, you'll see that line go away.
kc-steve
Well-known member
Well said Boiler!
As I read through the posts on this thread, I found myself trying to separate out the posters who might have a "dog in the fight" so to speak. I find myself having to do that often here. In other words, I'm sure some opinions are colored with the defense of having spent 100s if not 1000s of dollars on their Snapon collection.
Either way, as someone stated, it's not good business to compete with yourself while others have cited the General Motors debacle. Frankly, I can't think of a better example.
And to further quote Biomed:
Therefore as a home tool user, maybe buying Williams' tools might be the "average man's" best hope for having a SnapOn set of tools.
Steve
As I read through the posts on this thread, I found myself trying to separate out the posters who might have a "dog in the fight" so to speak. I find myself having to do that often here. In other words, I'm sure some opinions are colored with the defense of having spent 100s if not 1000s of dollars on their Snapon collection.
Either way, as someone stated, it's not good business to compete with yourself while others have cited the General Motors debacle. Frankly, I can't think of a better example.
And to further quote Biomed:
Therefore as a home tool user, maybe buying Williams' tools might be the "average man's" best hope for having a SnapOn set of tools.
Steve
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HandyManny
Well-known member
You are exactly right. The two brands serve two different markets and industries that require high quality tools. Snap-On was founded as an automotive service tool and remains mostly so today, though they have also serve the aviation and marine service industry for decades and still do. Williams has always been a maker of tools to the industrial, mining, manufacturing, building, and large heavy stationary equipment market. Granted any tool from either brand will turn any size nut or bolt of the correct size. Just two different markets that's all.
I've worked in the manufacturing industry before with three different brief jobs with different companies. You'd be surpirsed how much streamlining and cost cutting measures are practiced. They have to be done to be cost effective and turn a profit. Granted certain products are made to specific higher quality levels, but rebadging is just that - rebadging. If three different cusomers want the same product from the maker, and all three are satisfied with the existing high quality and specs of that product, then that same product gets rebadged for all three different customers. There are exception however.
HandyManny
Well-known member
I seriously doubt it. I don't believe that practice happens in the tool making industry. Similar practices however do happen in the food and beverage and even the in the distilling industry.
Williams isn't cheap line or a sub-par brand. They are and have always been known in the industry as a high quality tool way long before Snap-On existed.
I have heard that for a while since Snap-On close a few of it's facilities in the USA that Williams was stepping up production to make certain tools for the Snap-On brand to meet order demands.
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Wow, this got a little deeper than "same tips on both drivers". Any way decided on these two sets...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000T9SI60/?tag=atomicindus08-20
and
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002NH5F30/?tag=atomicindus08-20
that's about what the SO set would have cost.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000T9SI60/?tag=atomicindus08-20
and
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002NH5F30/?tag=atomicindus08-20
that's about what the SO set would have cost.
diesel research
Well-known member
Not even close. SO cost about 3x that and doesn't have #3 phillips or #0.
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item...group_ID=20402&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog
ibedayank
Well-known member
williams is owned by snap-on so no matter who buys what williams or snap-on ... snap-on inc still makes money. snap-on = buy on truck or JUST from snapon web store, Where Williams you CAN get other ways like a online tool store.But not off a truck.
Further investigation into that patent..... Well that patent on both the snap on and Williams hex wrenchs is actually held by eklind tools.........
http://www.eklindtool.net/
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000189PRU/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/183-0974017-7726826 ..... Damn those look familiar!
http://www.eklindtool.net/
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000189PRU/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/183-0974017-7726826 ..... Damn those look familiar!
mrholeshot
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It's common for differant brands of tools to hold the same patent number. I have 5 differant brands of screwdrivers that all have the same patent number on the handle. It's the same grip Klien uses in their screwdrivers.
But you can't just use someones patent on your own tool without paying some type of royalty to the patent holder, that's exactly why you patent it! I could be 100% wrong but that seems way to similar. Anyone have an older set of snap on hex wrenchs with a patent number on it? Curious to see if it's different
HandyManny
Well-known member
Could be that the company that holds the patent is making the tool for others or those other companies are paying licensing fees or royalties to the patent holder. I've seen that done before with companies I've worked for.
From another site...
"-If it's hex bits (Torx maybe....) you're seeking then be advised that NONE of the aforementioned brands make thier own hex keys and doubtful that they make the Torx either. I used to be a toolmaker for Eklind Tool and we made the hex wrenches and fold-ups for Snap-On as well as Mac, Park, and several other brands. This is done in the regular production line with only the change of a stamp logo. This is called "house branding" and everybody does this. My advice is to go with Hollow Krome (HK), Eklind, Blue Devil, Chesco, or Allen for hex keys or Torx (Torx *****...) and avoid the extra cost. Try for HK as Eklind lowered the hardness (Rc scale) when somebody tried to scam the company with a faked injury. For pneumatic hex bits search for "Apex" brand. All other brands are a distant second in my experience. If you visit your local industrial supply house you'll find that the quality of tooling is far superior to anything found in the retail chains. Industrial supply has it's share of cheap junk too but the better brands of hand tools, Armstrong for one, will be better quality and sometimes cheaper than the hardware store stuff. JMHO."
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-356674.html
"-If it's hex bits (Torx maybe....) you're seeking then be advised that NONE of the aforementioned brands make thier own hex keys and doubtful that they make the Torx either. I used to be a toolmaker for Eklind Tool and we made the hex wrenches and fold-ups for Snap-On as well as Mac, Park, and several other brands. This is done in the regular production line with only the change of a stamp logo. This is called "house branding" and everybody does this. My advice is to go with Hollow Krome (HK), Eklind, Blue Devil, Chesco, or Allen for hex keys or Torx (Torx *****...) and avoid the extra cost. Try for HK as Eklind lowered the hardness (Rc scale) when somebody tried to scam the company with a faked injury. For pneumatic hex bits search for "Apex" brand. All other brands are a distant second in my experience. If you visit your local industrial supply house you'll find that the quality of tooling is far superior to anything found in the retail chains. Industrial supply has it's share of cheap junk too but the better brands of hand tools, Armstrong for one, will be better quality and sometimes cheaper than the hardware store stuff. JMHO."
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-356674.html
Having the same patent really has little or nothing to do with determining whether they are identical. Only that they have the same design. But the patent (typically) has nothing to do with the construction (materials, tolerances, QC, etc). Boiler brought up many good points as to the many variables that will likely prevent this question from ever being answered.
I purchased the Williams set and am quite happy with the quality of it for the price I paid. In short, they are the quality they are. Whether or not they are the same as Snap On won't change the quality of the ones in my garage. If somebody bought similar Snap On screwdrivers, it won't change the quality of their set or their ability to easily warranty it through the tool truck when it comes to their shop.
I purchased the Williams set and am quite happy with the quality of it for the price I paid. In short, they are the quality they are. Whether or not they are the same as Snap On won't change the quality of the ones in my garage. If somebody bought similar Snap On screwdrivers, it won't change the quality of their set or their ability to easily warranty it through the tool truck when it comes to their shop.
ToolsDelivered.com
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We are an authorized JH Williams Tool Group distributor dealer and have an online store.
CDI Torque, BAHCO, and Williams are the industrial tool brand of Snap On that is sold through private distributors and not Snap-On industrial sale reps.
Williams tools that are USA made are 100% of Snap On standards in quality and durability, and the "globally" manufactured are equal to Blue Point in every way. Globally produced items in the Williams line have to exceed 80% of the destructive test standard set by Snap-On & Williams industrial USA made line and all have lifetime a warranty.
Globally manufactured means all of Europe, Africa, Argentina, and Asia. All CDI is USA, BAHCO is mainly Europe, and Williams is still mostly USA.
USA made Williams tools are designed for 24/7/365 use on factory assembly lines, heavy construction, military, railroad, ship builders, aerospace, etc.
Williams knows that globally made items are overkill for home users, and great if you are a normal commercial user like an auto mechanic or service tech that does not need industrial use tools, They also know if you are 3 miles down in a mine or if you are an iron worker 80 stories up using a socket or wrench constantly then you would be wise to spend a little more.
At $1.69 billion a year Wabtec (Westinghouse Air Brake) builds industrial products for the railroads, power generation plants, and defense. They buy JH Williams USA line.
Price is what you pay, value is what you get!
ToolsDelivered.com
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USA line is exactly the same steel.
companies do this to serve different markets but i would think the pricier model will have slightly different part or polish.
for the case of screwdrivers the older model might go to williams and the SO might have something extra added like regular and premium gas
for the case of screwdrivers the older model might go to williams and the SO might have something extra added like regular and premium gas
SMKS
Well-known member
Incorrect. The older wrenches had a smooth open end. The current Supercombos have ridges on the open end. They aren't as aggressive as Flank Drive Plus, though.
The Williams import line does have a smooth open end.
Busted Bolts
Well-known member
Am told from my truck dealer, that spme of the "Blue Point" tools are that of Williams Tool group. They are placed on the trucks to be more competitive with such brands as gear wrench, C-man and others. So you still might be buying a quality SO rebadged wrench cheaper than the SO stamp.
ToolsDelivered.com
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J.H. Williams Tool Group division in 2010 had $116 million in earnings (not revenue) and does not use old worn out tooling or need to. They are very rich and very well funded by themselves and Snap-On which had in 2010 $2.6 billion revenue. Over 1,000 new tools SKUs were introduced in 2010 and more to come in 2011.
On the other hand, SK Hand Tool went bankrupt and was bought for $3.5 million in 2010, while JH Williams sold $3.5 million every 12 business days and was up over 30% in 2010. JH Williams helped plenty in killing off SK, and if not for government contracts would kill of a few others because they are not as accepted in private industry as JH Williams.
Snap-On sold on trucks is heavily chromed, stylized with bright colors and packaging, and goes through styling changes to keep people with old Snap-On tools buying new Snap-On tools. If you run a tool route and sell to the same people for 20 years it is what has to happen if you will stay in business. NIKE does this with shoes.
JH Williams is not marketed that way and is primarily bought by heavy industrial company purchasing agents. These companies only buy tools because they are worn out, lost, or need more. Snap-On route customers don't buy for these same reasons.
I knew an old expert Snap-On salesman that would take a new wrench or screwdriver and go in a shop and just lay that tool by a mechanics old tools, or he would just ask them to hold it while he was thumbing through the receipt book, because he knew it was the old Snap-On tools that sells the new Snap-On tools, and not him.
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powertrip
Well-known member
They are the same screwdrivers. The snap on fan boys dont want to admit they spent over twice as much for the snap on name. The fact that an average joe can go on amazon and not a tool truck and get williams screwdrivers of the exact same quality as their precious snap on pisses them off.
ToolsDelivered.com
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This YouTube video we posted should clear most of this Snap-On-Williams confusion up. <a href = "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtogtLvxu4s">ToolsDelivered.com on YouTube<a/>
03silvergt
Well-known member
If you cant see the difference in the tips you must be blind.
ToolsDelivered.com
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By the company's standards, 80% stress is professional use, 100% stress is industrial use.
A professional user (auto mechanic) does not use 2 or 3 different tools non stop on assembly lines, but industrial users do. Using the same wrench 5-10 minutes a day is different than using it all day for a 8hr production shift at a factory.
All imported Williams is made in a Snap-On Industrial owned overseas factory in Europe, Africa, Argentina, or Asia, or contract manufactured to Williams specifications, which is a minimum of 80% of the USA line. Some of the adjustable wrenches and pipe wrenches actually test 98%.
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kams1973
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I bought a set of the Williams screwdrivers and have used them extensively. I personally haven't had any problems with any of them. It's a no brainer to buy them, unless you want a color other than black.
It is not reasonable to believe they have two manufacturing process for the same tool.
I believe this is just one of them "you pay for the name" moments. Except, I don't believe Snap-on spends the extra time doing close quality control with the Williams drivers like they do with the Snap-on's.
maybe they use the shafts that don't pass Snap-on's quality control standards.... I'm sure with a company like snap on many tool parts fail quality control inspection that are still good quality, usable tools.
Here is some Williams orange hard handle's.
Where can I get orange handled Williams drivers?
AZ_Catskinner
Well-known member
All of the Williams sockets I recently bought had big "Made in Taiwan" stickers on them. Haven't had that on a Snapon....yet.
Kirbot
Well-known member
Pro-Painter
Well-known member
Ebay is the only place to find them and they are rare. Im not sure when they made them, But I do know they don't make them any more.
You never owned anything Blue-point?. Just like Snap-on with blue-point, JH Williams offers a USA line and a Taiwan made line of hand tools. The Taiwan tools are nothing more then Blue-point clones. They come in the same sets, with the same tools. the only difference is the JH Williams logo, & they are approx 30% cheaper then blue-point.
mrbreezeet1
Banned
Fordman7795
Well-known member
honestly the only difference i see in the tips of the screwdrivers is that they are at different angles to each other
03silvergt
Well-known member
The Williams one has more of a laser tip than the SO one. It looks like it could grip better. This is what a laser tip looks like. Big difference in the tips of the Williams and SO that were pictured on the first page
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A little more clarity but not entirely transparent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahco#Up_to_the_present_.281990s_.E2.80.93_2010s.29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snap-on#Bahco
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahco#Up_to_the_present_.281990s_.E2.80.93_2010s.29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snap-on#Bahco
They could be doing something like the semiconductor industry does.
With semiconductor chips they have a process called "floor-sweeping" which involves taking die (the rectangular "chips" that are laser-cut from the large wafer) that fail test, physically short out some of the components and/or certify them to run at a slower clock speed with less features and they sell them for less.
In other words, they take the cream of the crop and set those aside for the top price point. The take the next batch of "rejects" and rework them to be the second tier devices and so on.
The graphics chip companies do this. That's why you see a family of graphics cards from Nvidia or ATI and they have slightly less memory, slightly lower clock speed and slightly lower performance. Intel does this with the CPUs. That's why you can overclock. Some of the "rejects" are actually not but they need a certain proportion of a lot to populate each price tier as ordered.
If, as some have claimed here, the alloy is different (I seriously doubt the handles are different material) they must certainly be using the same molds and die to manufacture these if they do look identical.
With semiconductor chips they have a process called "floor-sweeping" which involves taking die (the rectangular "chips" that are laser-cut from the large wafer) that fail test, physically short out some of the components and/or certify them to run at a slower clock speed with less features and they sell them for less.
In other words, they take the cream of the crop and set those aside for the top price point. The take the next batch of "rejects" and rework them to be the second tier devices and so on.
The graphics chip companies do this. That's why you see a family of graphics cards from Nvidia or ATI and they have slightly less memory, slightly lower clock speed and slightly lower performance. Intel does this with the CPUs. That's why you can overclock. Some of the "rejects" are actually not but they need a certain proportion of a lot to populate each price tier as ordered.
If, as some have claimed here, the alloy is different (I seriously doubt the handles are different material) they must certainly be using the same molds and die to manufacture these if they do look identical.