Snap On Whitworth Socket from the 'bay

[VolvoMan]

I received a delivery today of very old Snap-On Whitworth sockets I found on ebay, in the end with postage, I got them for about £2 each ($3). I was knocked flat when I found two of them to be pretty much unused and the date marks on all of them (at least those I could see) would seem to indicate they were made in 1942.

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Most readable date stamp:
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These two show virtually no signs of use, and one even has burr around the drive hole, not from wear, its too even.
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Factory Clean inside
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I got them as an "In Case" set, as It has all but one size from 3/16 (0BA) to 11/16 and all are marked as W sizes, not the later BS sizes. I also have several duplicates, which is just as well as the two clean ones are going in the collector's drawer.

I have absolutely no use for them at the moment, but have every intention of working on 1940's vehicles in the future.

 

[Gort the giant robot]

About 25 years ago i bought a cigar box full of Snap-On sockets for $2.00 at a garage sale. I was thinking i really put one over on the seller. Got home and found out they were all Whitworth. Sold them on Ebarf and made a few bucks profit. Wish i had kept them and sold them now.

Gort.

 

[VolvoMan]

I had to buy most of the guy's lots in order to make a complete-ish set, as I bought these to use, but I'm glad I did as the as new condition items will make a great addition to my collectors drawer. Plus, snap on stopped making Whitworth sockets years ago. for some reason, they're still doing the wrenches, but only in short.

 

[franzdom]

I had to buy most of the guy's lots in order to make a complete-ish set, as I bought these to use, but I'm glad I did as the as new condition items will make a great addition to my collectors drawer. Plus, snap on stopped making Whitworth sockets years ago. for some reason, they're still selling the wrenches, but only in short.

Fixed

 

[Stuart in MN]

Interesting that they were made in 1942. I'd think Snap-On would have been fully involved in the war effort by then, but maybe British WWII military vehicles used Whitworth fasteners?

 

[2oolhound]

My English Norton motorcycle started changing a lot of the fasteners from whitworth to sae in 1972. Many of the engine and gear box fasteners were never changed. As more Nortons were made for export to the USA than anywhere else they had good reason to change, I would expect a lot of British cars and equipment went even longer before switching.

You ****! by the way.

 

[Hetman]

What's the difference? Are they marked by thread size instead of head size? Can you list dimensions?

 

[2oolhound]

The biggest difference is the thread design, depth, radius, and pitch is 55' and not 60' like sae threads but size wise a 3/4" W wrench fits nicely on a 1 1/4"sae nut, they are big and yes it's based on the thread size and not the distance between the flats of the nut. BSF however uses the next size down from whitworth so a 1/2" W = 9/16 BSF. (a 1/2" BSF = 1/4" W) Here's a chart:

http://www.samstagsales.com/whitworth_table.htm

 

[billymade]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth

 

[davesnothere]

I've never really understood how the whitworth jazz worked.
I think I kinda get it now, but is there any real reason you need to use a whitworth wrench or socket, as opposed to regular sae?

 

[Hetman]

Guys, I know about the threads, I asked about the heads sizes... We are talking sockets, not taps here.

The 1st table is a bit strange - it's obvious that mm's won't work but why inches not in common fractions? There's no easy way to compare.
But I guess, it's better than nothing...

 

[VolvoMan]

Us quirky Brits decided that head size should be a direct ratio to Thread size (actually not that mad a concept if you think it through) but didn't account for the fact that the ratio of 1.75:1 doesn't work too well with fractional sizes, this is what happens when you leave such things up to engineers who think in thousandths of an inch, when nobody else does.

To complicate matters more, during the war, to save metal, they reduced the head size of Whitworth fasteners to that of BSF fastners (the fine version), which is one size smaller due to the lower torque loading of fine fasteners. By this time, better alloys and manufacturing processes were in use, so after the war, the head size for whitworth stayed at the smaller size.

In the case of my sockets, they are marked with the original pre-war whitworth sizes, which will turn a BSF bolt of the next size up ie 5/16 W will turn a 3/8 BSF, or, a post war Whitworth of the next size, ie 3/8 W.

to make things easier, Snap on marked their post change sockets (& Wrenches) as BS instead of W, but they did not change the part number for the striking, so a 1942 WF102 is marked as 3/8W and a 1952 WF102 as 7/16BS Both are .710" across the flats.

The really odd thing about several of the sockets which I picked up is that they are polished & chromed. They were made at that time to support the War effort in Europe and would only have been used for British machines, vehicles & aircraft. My understanding is that all of the war effort tools were not chromed to save metals and also to speed the manufacturing process, but were just coated to prevent corrosion, as some of the ones I got are.

The real Enigma is who in 1942 Mid-War Britain was buying chromed American tools? They were definitely civilian use as none have the tell tale government issue crow's feet (little arrow shaped stamps).

 

[VolvoMan]

My English Norton motorcycle started changing a lot of the fasteners from whitworth to sae in 1972. Many of the engine and gear box fasteners were never changed. As more Nortons were made for export to the USA than anywhere else they had good reason to change, I would expect a lot of British cars and equipment went even longer before switching.

You ****! by the way.

Yay, I got my first "You ****"

 

[VolvoMan]

Fixed

Actually, in the UK, "Doing" pretty much means selling. In a sentence - "are home depot still doing those cheap solar lights?". "doing" meaning manufacturing is a valid but much less used use of the term here.

 

[Hetman]

Thanks for this explanation, now I understand origins of these head sizes and it all makes sense.

 

[WWIIjeep]

Interesting that they were made in 1942. I'd think Snap-On would have been fully involved in the war effort by then, but maybe British WWII military vehicles used Whitworth fasteners?

Yes, they did use BSW and BSF fasteners during WWII (and long afterward as well).

Snap-On may well have been fully involved in the war effort by 1942, but that wouldn't necessarily have excluded them from making products for US allies, primarily Britain and other Commonwealth Nations, and also the USSR. In addition, in the first few months of "official" US involvement in WWII (December, 1941 to approximately April, 1942), the full effect of production controls and strategic material rationing had yet to be felt by many US manufacturers. In other words, even though the US War Production Board was formed in mid-January, 1942, some limited production of certain tools and other industrial products for civilian use continued for a brief time after that.

The really odd thing about several of the sockets which I picked up is that they are polished & chromed. They were made at that time to support the War effort in Europe and would only have been used for British machines, vehicles & aircraft. My understanding is that all of the war effort tools were not chromed to save metals and also to speed the manufacturing process, but were just coated to prevent corrosion, as some of the ones I got are.

The real Enigma is who in 1942 Mid-War Britain was buying chromed American tools? They were definitely civilian use as none have the tell tale government issue crow's feet (little arrow shaped stamps).

I'm primarily a student of US WWII history, and primarily Pacific Theater history at that, but I'm assuming certain things in Britain may have been similar to things in the US, particularly regarding civilian involvement in war production. While the major manufacturing concerns in the US were directed at war production, so too were many civilian "mom and pop" businesses, and even some home workshops. Such small businesses--depending upon the type of product they manufactured--were able to retain purchasing preference for some rationed strategic materials, like certain metals or particular tools because they were being used in the war effort.

Perhaps the reason you have two chromed war-vintage sockets is that those two were US-made in very early 1942 and the other "war finish" sockets were made later in the year. 1942 may have been mid-war for Britain, but it was "early war" (at least officially) for the US.

Chromium was indeed one of several rationed strategic metals (along with nickel, copper, aluminum, and various others), but not necessarily in very early 1942, nor with any stock which might have been on hand in very early 1942.

In lieu of chrome plating during WWII, products which needed some form of corrosion resistance were either zinc or cadmium plated or phosphated (Parkerized), while others not needing particular corrosion resistance were either simply polished and left bare, or blued.

.

 

[Swan]

Please remember British Standard Whitworth was the very first thread and bolt head standard (1841, thank you Joesph Whitworth). Every standard afterwards was weird, ******* and different including SAE and metric.

 

[VolvoMan]

Please remember British Standard Whitworth was the very first thread and bolt head standard (1841, thank you Joesph Whitworth). Every standard afterwards was weird, ******* and different including SAE and metric.

Hear Hear, of course we should also all remember that it was a STANDARD, I've never come across a mismatched bolt head size on whitworth stuff, but its a daily occurrence working on anything metric, my biggest bugbear is bolt and nut with different size wrench!

 

[2oolhound]

Perhaps the reason you have two chromed war-vintage sockets is that those two were US-made in very early 1942 and the other "war finish" sockets were made later in the year. 1942 may have been mid-war for Britain, but it was "early war" (at least officially) for the US.

Maybe the whitworth tools were made in a separate corner of the factoty and didn't get changed over to war finish when the main stream tools did.

 

[snapmom]

Snap on started making whitworth in about 1938. The BS stampings came in at about 1959. Has anyone got a 1943 date code? I have both chrome and war finish tools with the 42 code too.

 

[Murphy4570]

Hear Hear, of course we should also all remember that it was a STANDARD, I've never come across a mismatched bolt head size on whitworth stuff, but its a daily occurrence working on anything metric, my biggest bugbear is bolt and nut with different size wrench!

Oh that really pisses me off sometimes. Damned metric system.

Why you Brits ever dropped your old imperial inch system in favor of the metric system, I don't know. Us Americans never widely adopted the metric system due to the old Imperial English system being firmly ingrained in all aspects of our culture. In a way, us Americans are more British than you Brits are!

 

[Hetman]

I've never come across a mismatched bolt head size on whitworth stuff, but its a daily occurrence working on anything metric, my biggest bugbear is bolt and nut with different size wrench!

It's actually good - you can hold both with one wrench set and not bother buying second set.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I've never really understood how the whitworth jazz worked.
I think I kinda get it now, but is there any real reason you need to use a whitworth wrench or socket, as opposed to regular sae?

Its just like trying to use Metric on fractional or the other way around, it don't work. You need to use the correct, proper fit socket, and if you are dealing with Whitworth or BS then you need to use their sockets.

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

http://www.samstagsales.com/whitworth_table.htm

 

[VolvoMan]

Oh that really pisses me off sometimes. Damned metric system.

Why you Brits ever dropped your old imperial inch system in favor of the metric system, I don't know. Us Americans never widely adopted the metric system due to the old Imperial English system being firmly ingrained in all aspects of our culture. In a way, us Americans are more British than you Brits are!

Hmmm, sometimes I wonder if the War Effort wasn't quite as effective as we once thought. It seems we are being more and more ruled by Europe these days. Sometimes I consider the USA as "Great Britain In Exile" - sigh -

On the subject of "culture" it would appear that ours is a moving target these days.