Snap on will “reclaim” my tool box?!??

[ngk22r]

Just theorizing here, but if I were to buy a big tv (which of course has a serial #) with a credit card, then sell it on craigslist, and not pay the bill. Is the guy I sold it to liable? NO Absolutely Not. Will Mastercard show up at my door looking for my tv? NO Absolutely Not. They can sue me, and get a judgement against me, but am I or the buyer criminally liable? No Absolutely Not.

So how is this any different? GIT gave some precedent more or less by referring to a particular case with ford vs.meccum. Anyone else care to reference one? If it was a crime then every tech who has defaulted on their toolbox would be in jail. Not starting ****, just sparking the debate.

Credit cards are unsecured loans....

Snap-on tools and boxes financed through Snap-on are SECURED...

Two different items.. Hell, you could buy a car private party and pay for it with a credit card too through a cash advance. Same results as your TV example.

 

[ngk22r]

No they're not.

Who's going to repo them? Who's going to come into your home/garage and take a 1000lb box? Nobody. It's no different than defaulting on a credit card.

Wrong....

Don’t quit your day job, legalities are not your specialty.

 

[Shane6377]

I live in Kansas...

In order for a creditor to repossess property a creditor must perfect the lien. That requires filing the lien with a government agency (county, state) so that other creditors have notice of the lien. Kansas doesn't record liens on property like toolboxes (or boats! [emoji848]). If not filed with the proper authorities, the lien is considered an equity interest lien which means the creditor has legal rights to the equitable value of the property but not the actual physical property itself. A court would have to grant a judgement lien before property could be repossessed. The state won't place a judgement against property that the debtor doesn't currently own.

In the state of Kansas Snap on would not be allowed to repossess a toolbox from a secondary owner who had no contract with them. Their recourse would be to sue the original debtor for the equitable value of the box in civil court.
Your state laws may vary.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[FSrepair&fabrication]

I believe MD is rhe same way. They can threaten this and threaten that, but without going to court and winning i dont think they can actually do ****. That said, I have seen snap on guys pull some shady ****, might not be legal but theyll try anyway.

 

[WittHay]

Lots of opinions. but here’s one more:
The concept that a toolbox has quote unquote title.....like a house or car......its just a cultural thing that techs spread around to each other to make themselves feel good, feel like the overpriced metal box is an investment, like a house or car......its not. If i was buying on the secondary market, id no more look into a toolboxes clean history than i would look into a used hammer’s clean history.

Totally wrong. Same as buying a car, boat, motorcycle, atv or anything else from a small business. The dealer takes a picture of the serial number of the box, picture of your id. He knows where you work but he takes all your personal information as well.

The item belongs to the dealer or Snap-on until its paid for. the dealer knows exactly what tools he sold to you over the years. If the box is missing he will take tools instead if the box cannot be found.

If you buy a tool box, car, boat privately that has debt on it basically you are stealing if you dont make arrangements first with the ordinal lender. Small businesses can be real redneckish in collecting debt

 

[3baygarage]

It’s time again:

Local Snap-On guy trying to get his tools back.

 

[DGersic]

Re: Snap on will “reclaim” my tool box?!?

Crazy thought here, but contact the dealer. Ask him what it would cost to release the lien. Have him repo the box and sell it to you.


Sent from my iPad using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[WittHay]

Re: Snap on will “reclaim” my tool box?!?

Crazy thought here, but contact the dealer. Ask him what it would cost to release the lien. Have him repo the box and sell it to you.


Sent from my iPad using The Garage Journal mobile app

Thats exactly how its done with farm equipment. Somebody buys a tractor, fews years later wants to sell it. New buyer gives X amount to dealer or finance company and the rest to the seller. Everybody is happy.

 

[Lucid Moments]

Yes, the boxes are serialized.

That leaves open the question of if snap on filed the correct documents for their lien. Then their comes possible problems with repossession. I am not sure if the laws regarding repossessing personal property are the same as they are for vehicles, but it is very easy to stop someone repossessing a vehicle. In Georgia anyway and I think in many other states as well.

 

[kb1982]

Re: Snap on will “reclaim” my tool box?!?

Possibly could do a two party certified check with snap on being the other party. Ive done that with a car that had a lien on it. The creditor was perfectly content with that even though the amount was 1k less than payoff.

Sent from my LML713DL using Tapatalk

 

[nmantas]

I believe MD is the same way. They can threaten this and threaten that, but without going to court and winning i don't think they can actually do ****. That said, I have seen snap on guys pull some shady ****, might not be legal but they'll try anyway.

I 100% agree to the degree of legality that the authorities would need to get involved and if this was a homebox I would blissfully purchase it without losing sleep. Sometimes the owner of the shop knows the tool rep (for years) and also have a sense of right an wrong and will let repossessions go inside their shop that might not be legal but are right according to their tool truck rep and the shop owners principles and business ethics.

Do you really want the Snap-On rep saying here is the sale and the outstanding balance on our serialized box, we own the box so establish a payment plan or we are taking it and you saying "you don't have a right" then calling the police to try to get the authorities and courts involved? The Snap-On guy might not have a legal right to do this but most would say that he is correct according to their own ethics and principles (including the owner of the shop) and let this happen without all the legal jargon and authorities being part of the process.

 

[lbhsbz]

The Snap-on tool boxes I bought under contract listed the serial number of the box as the secured debt.

That's for their records. Unless the bank (SO credit) holds a title to the collateral (which they don't, because you can't title a tool box)...then they can get fucked when the loanee decides to stop paying. The Loanee will also get fucked, because he's the one that signed for the personal loan...

It's no different than me going down to Living Spaces and buying $5K worth of new furniture....they sign me up for a credit card through Synchrony bank and finance the purchase through whatever term deals they've worked out. If I sell the stuff a week after it's delivered....I'm the one on the hook for the money, not the guy I sold it to.

Snap on is a bank that sells tools on the side...not a tool company that loans money on occasion.

 

[Sycan]

Wrong....

Don’t quit your day job, legalities are not your specialty.

What about my night job, can I quit that one??

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

 

[WittHay]

Re: Snap on will “reclaim” my tool box?!?

If it doesn't have a title it's not a secured debt. A buyer can't be expected to check with a manufacturer of a product before a private party sale.

Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

Thats exactly what you have to do. Its called due diligence. Other whys you might be buying stolen property. Its not the manufacturer you check with, its your local dealer.

Its almost like you can take a poll with this thread. There is no grey area. Either you have no problems buying hot items or you rather stay clear.

 

[Skin]

Re: Snap on will “reclaim” my tool box?!?

Thats exactly what you have to do. Its called due diligence. Other whys you might be buying stolen property. Its not the manufacturer you check with, its your local dealer.

Its almost like you can take a poll with this thread. There is no grey area. Either you have no problems buying hot items or you rather stay clear.

In a perfect world. In the real world thousands upon thousands of private party transactions take place daily on good faith alone. By your logic they're all thieves.

 

[ngk22r]

That's for their records. Unless the bank (SO credit) holds a title to the collateral (which they don't, because you can't title a tool box)...then they can get fucked when the loanee decides to stop paying. The Loanee will also get fucked, because he's the one that signed for the personal loan...

It's no different than me going down to Living Spaces and buying $5K worth of new furniture....they sign me up for a credit card through Synchrony bank and finance the purchase through whatever term deals they've worked out. If I sell the stuff a week after it's delivered....I'm the one on the hook for the money, not the guy I sold it to.

Snap on is a bank that sells tools on the side...not a tool company that loans money on occasion.

a credit card is UNSECURED debt. A loan for a toolbox, f/e going through Snap-on for the loan is a SECURED debt.... The toolbox is property/asset, legally, you don't have the right to sell that tool box until its paid off. The lender has a security interest in it, selling property that doesn't fully belong to you is a type of theft.

This whole “it’s like buying stuff on a credit card” is not true. When the SECURED loan is issued for the tool box, the serial number ties that box to the loan. You think the other guy wont be on the hook???

If you sold a car private party and the buyer didnt care to recieve a clear “title” and just wanted to buy the car to the “owner” (but not knowing that the bank is also the owner of the car) and the bank has the car repossessed, it is their car.

Or here is another way to look at it: You bought an iPhone (has a serial number) from a person who you did not know stole it (theft: like a person who gets a loan and then sells the property that does not belong to them) from someone else. They track the phone to you and because it is stolen property (but does not have a title) take it from you, are you going to say : “take it up with the guy I bought it from”. ????

What is really sad is some of you trying to justify this theft. It’s not YOUR property just because you bought it off someone. If someone LEGALLY owns that property then it is not yours. The only thing you own is a life lesson.

Also the people who keep comparing a secured loan to that of a credit card should NOT be trusted for any kind of advice in regards to loans, money, or purchasing property.

 

[ngk22r]

Re: Snap on will “reclaim” my tool box?!?

In a perfect world. In the real world thousands upon thousands of private party transactions take place daily on good faith alone. By your logic they're all thieves.

He did not call people who unknowingly buy stolen itmes, he is pointing out how people here are trying to justify buying known stolen items...

 

[WittHay]

We are talking about a $2000 tool cart. that is only sold by a few dealers in a given area.

Say if a near new one is on Craigslist for $500. Its the buyers duty to question the seller why its for sale and who he bought it from.

If the sellers gives you the dealers name and everything checks out your good. If anything seems fishy and you still buy it, you are knowingly buying stolen property.

I am from area where people aren't afraid to make house calls to get stuff back and if the police are called ,more the better to disturb the neighbors or show up at somebodys work talking to their boss about stolen property.

 

[Shane6377]

Re: Snap on will “reclaim” my tool box?!?

Thats exactly what you have to do. Its called due diligence. Other whys you might be buying stolen property. Its not the manufacturer you check with, its your local dealer.

Its almost like you can take a poll with this thread. There is no grey area. Either you have no problems buying hot items or you rather stay clear.

You're not buying a hot item. Do you understand what an equity interest lien is? Snap on doesn't have a lien on the box... they have a lien on the value of the box.

The seller may be in the wrong but the buyer certainly is not.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[Shane6377]

a credit card is UNSECURED debt. A loan for a toolbox, f/e going through Snap-on for the loan is a SECURED debt.... The toolbox is property/asset, legally, you don't have the right to sell that tool box until its paid off. The lender has a security interest in it, selling property that doesn't fully belong to you is a type of theft.



This whole “it’s like buying stuff on a credit card” is not true. When the SECURED loan is issued for the tool box, the serial number ties that box to the loan. You think the other guy wont be on the hook???



If you sold a car private party and the buyer didnt care to recieve a clear “title” and just wanted to buy the car to the “owner” (but not knowing that the bank is also the owner of the car) and the bank has the car repossessed, it is their car.



Or here is another way to look at it: You bought an iPhone (has a serial number) from a person who you did not know stole it (theft: like a person who gets a loan and then sells the property that does not belong to them) from someone else. They track the phone to you and because it is stolen property (but does not have a title) take it from you, are you going to say : “take it up with the guy I bought it from”. ????



What is really sad is some of you trying to justify this theft. It’s not YOUR property just because you bought it off someone. If someone LEGALLY owns that property then it is not yours. The only thing you own is a life lesson.



Also the people who keep comparing a secured loan to that of a credit card should NOT be trusted for any kind of advice in regards to loans, money, or purchasing property.

Again, look up equity interest lien. The lien holder doesn't legally own that property. They own the value of that property. I understand the argument but that's not the way it works for toolboxes. Cars, land and homes with titles, yes. Toolboxes, no.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[Shane6377]

Re: Snap on will “reclaim” my tool box?!?

OP, you've seen all the speculation but the only way you're really going to know is to call your County office and see if the have a lien registered for a tool box.
If not, get a bill of sale and be done with it.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[LOW1]

Most states (all except Louisiana last time I checked) have adopted the Uniform Commercial Code or ucc. Under the ucc the secured creditor such as snap on has the debtor sign a security agreement which creates rights between the debtor and snap on. The secured creditor then files what is called a financing statement with the state secretary of states office. This filing is a public record and prospective buyers have to check it because if they do not the lien on the toolbox remains when the property is transferred to a new owner and the box can be reposessed from the second buyer. Things get complicated when the first buyer moves from state to state or if the toolbox is considered commercial property (used in a business) or if its consumer property (used in a hobby). And your state may or may not have criminal laws against buying or selling things covered with a lien.

 

[JVB]

No easy choice or clear answer. I do agree that the serial number do make things difficult and potentially liable for a repo on the cart. But is this because a driver takes it from a business and had the opportunity or is it because a true lien is filed and registered on the box . As other as have said i have never seen a title or anything for a box .

They should do a credit card instead of this as there are tons of used boxes for sale. I cannot find any info on any liens filed or information on ucc. I do not have his full name to search but serial and model is not pulling any info.

 

[LOW1]

If there is a ucc filing with the secretary of state it will be indexed under the name of the original debtor. UCC filings also do not need to be based on a serial number, although serial numbers certainly make things more clear. They can be what are called "blanket" filings which cover all tools, equipment, account receivables, etc. owned by the debtor even if snap on (or whoever) did not finance all of those items.

States generally require that that things which have a title, such as cars, boats, etc will require any lien valid against subsequent buyers to be shown on the title document. States vary on what stuff has a title and what does not. I don't know of any state that would give a title on a toolbox.

 

[ngk22r]

Again, look up equity interest lien. The lien holder doesn't legally own that property. They own the value of that property. I understand the argument but that's not the way it works for toolboxes. Cars, land and homes with titles, yes. Toolboxes, no.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

It’s a secured loan.... They own the box til you pay it off.

 

[nmantas]

From what I understand the only things that can be repossessed are titled properties (such as real estate and vehicles) OR objects that are put up for collateral (that the creditor already has possession of like pawnshops), OR rent-to-own items.

EDIT: It does seem like Snap-On files a UCC lien which means they can repossess from the individual in debt. Coming after someone who purchased the box from the person that they, unknowingly, owed a balance on is another thing entirely. Someone asked a similar question on a legal advice website:

https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/can-snap-on-take-my-tool-box-i-bought-from-someone-3525619.html

 

[logical]

It’s a secured loan.... They own the box til you pay it off.

I think you are close. They have a claim on it if you don't pay it off like a pawn shop that took your watch as collateral and loaned you money. They don't own your watch as soon as you walk out the door with the cash.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Re: Snap on will “reclaim” my tool box?!?

The seller may be in the wrong but the buyer certainly is not.

If the buyer has good reason to believe the seller owes money on the box, I disagree.

 

[Steve_P]

Ok, so if you see a set of SO wrenches on CL, meet the guy in a parking lot, pay cash for them , is SO going to try to get them back from you if they're not paid for? The purchaser owes the debt.

 

[greg13]

OK guys as usual things are going to extremes here. Boxes, some power tools and diagnostic equipment DO have serial numbers and can be positively identified. Hand tools do not. Now if a guy buys a box and fills it with tools (all on credit) and skips, many times they just walk off the job and leaves everything. The dealer CAN repo the box & contents with assumption that the tools inside are part of the credit agreement.

A certified letter must be sent and a 30 day waiting period is put in place BEFORE the box can be opened. If there is no response from the "deadbeat" EVERYTHING becomes property of the lienholder (Snapon, Mac, Matco etc). In My area the tool dealers all talk to each other and keep an eye out for each other's stuff so when there is a situation they ALL are usually involved since someone usually skips on more than one dealer. Often if there is a confrontation police do get involved.

That said, would they go into someones' home garage and do a repo? probably not.

 

[DGersic]

If there is a ucc filing with the secretary of state it will be indexed under the name of the original debtor. UCC filings also do not need to be based on a serial number, although serial numbers certainly make things more clear. They can be what are called "blanket" filings which cover all tools, equipment, account receivables, etc. owned by the debtor even if snap on (or whoever) did not finance all of those items.

States generally require that that things which have a title, such as cars, boats, etc will require any lien valid against subsequent buyers to be shown on the title document. States vary on what stuff has a title and what does not. I don't know of any state that would give a title on a toolbox.

My first several cars cost less than some of these tool boxes. Maybe the box should have a title.




Sent from my iPad using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[ngk22r]

I think you are close. They have a claim on it if you don't pay it off like a pawn shop that took your watch as collateral and loaned you money. They don't own your watch as soon as you walk out the door with the cash.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

...... It is a secured loan....

It is not a pawn shop...

I do not understand what is so hard to understand..

 

[f121]

...... It is a secured loan....

I do not understand what is so hard to understand..

Yup, that's how it works in the UK.

If I bought a box on finance from snapon, sell it to someone, snapon can take the box back from them unless the finance is paid off. I think that's dumb and the debt should be with the person who signed the finance agreement not with the person that holds the box, however that's not how the law works.

I wouldn't buy a box without checking it doesn't have money owed on it, there's plenty out there that don't, just check Facebook marketplace and your local snap on for sale group.

 

[WittHay]

On every Mac Tools invoice

"Thank you for your business. This is your proof of purchase/payment. This merchandise remains the property of Mac Tools until paid in full. Past due accounts subject to interest charges."

On every Snap-on invoice

The Franchisee reserves ownership of the tools and any other products described above until full payment of the sale price has been received by the Franchisee. Notwithstanding the foregoing, risk of loss shall pass to the Purchaser on delivery. I represent and warrant to the Franchisee that the tools and any other products described above have been acquired for the service or operation of my business. If I fail to make any payments specified , I agree to return to the Franchisee (or its nominee) on demand, the tools and any other products described above. Until all payments have been made. I agree to retain all such tools and any other products in good condition and to notify the Franchisee of any changes in employment or home address.

 

[J.A.F.E.]

The agreement to buy the box is usually between the buyer and Snap-on or Snap-on credit or whatever bank is writing the loan the dealers don't normally finance them and the agreement sets terms including ownership of the box - which is retained by Snap-on or Snap-on credit or whatever bank and does not pass to the buyer until the loan is paid. The box does not legally belong to the buyer if they owe money on it.

Regardless if the dealer can or can not repossess the box if it is not paid off it is stolen from Snap-on or Snap-on credit or whatever bank and was never the property of whoever sold it. I agree the chances of it getting found are small but that's not really the point.

The real question in this situation is if a person is good with buying stolen property.

 

[WittHay]

Things get complicated when the first buyer moves from state to state or if the toolbox is considered commercial property (used in a business) or if its consumer property (used in a hobby).

Thats exactly what a Snap-on or Mac tool cart is. Commercial equipment same as a John Deere farm tractor. This is where due diligence carrys more weight in court than state laws or liens.

The standard price for a new consumer tool cart is roughly $200 from Harbor Freight. If somebody is buying a used Mac cart at 3 or 4 times the cost of a HF, it is assumed he is knowingly buying commercial equipment that can only be sourced through commercial dealers (tool trucks)

Especially if the equipment is below fair market value, the buyer must take reasonable steps (due diligence) to make sure the equipment is not stolen and that its paid for. If their is money owing on the box, its up to the buyer to make sure that the real owner (tool dealer or credit company) has given consent for the equipment (tool cart) to be sold.

The tool carts in the pictures are from my local Craigslist. The dealers usually finance these carts in house

 

[Robert Haas]

I think it has to do with the dealer. I have a few Snap on Boxes back in the shop. The more expensive ones were "deals" my dealer had and he just delivered them, I paid them off in short order and never once signed a contract.

 

[DakotaMan]

The guy has not totally paid for the tool box; so according to his finance contract; he does not legally own it. He cannot legally sell a tool box he does not legally own.. Would You want to give him money for Snap-on's tool box.

If he wants the typical cash at midnight in the back alley type deal; You could get a real steal of a deal... would get worse if HE reports it as stolen to the police and insurance company. If caught up with; it would be rather difficult to prove You paid him in cash. Goodbye cash, goodbye Snap-on's tool box.

Using your own logic, how would snap on ever know you have the box? I've purchased multiple vehicles where the seller had an open title and a burner. Just as I could never find them, they could never find me. If this is a DIYer, how would snap on ever know who has it?

 

[ngk22r]

Using your own logic, how would snap on ever know you have the box? I've purchased multiple vehicles where the seller had an open title and a burner. Just as I could never find them, they could never find me. If this is a DIYer, how would snap on ever know who has it?

If you tried to warranty parts on it and gave up the serial number and address...

But this goes down the moral side of things.

 

[JVB]

If you tried to warranty parts on it and gave up the serial number and address...

But this goes down the moral side of things.

I hear you there. Will they ever come take it from me ? Probably not.. It more so the point . It’s not the same as buying a used item that someone never paid the credit card for.

I passed on the box that was not paid off. The other cart I was supposed to go see tonight was sold out from under me after I schedule a time with the seller. Back to the drawing board.