snow-melt system installation begins...

[quatroad]

Well, the work has finally started on the installation of our snow-melt system. We're using the Norwegian Nexans cables custom ordered from Orbit Mfg in PA. The melt-way path is 75'x8'. The cabling is laid out in rows spaced 4" on center. The biggest headache was getting the required 50-amp GFEP circuit breakers. A BIG THANKS to fellow GJ'r MRB for helping us to get these custom-ordered from Murray. They arrived yesterday and we're expecting to have the system installation completed by early next week and the top layer of asphalt put on as soon as everything checks out.

 

[GSSFC]

Around here we call those ice makers!

Tim

 

[IDASHO]

No kidding.

Does the city know you will be installing an ice-rink in the street for them?

 

[GSSFC]

I gotta be honest. Why not just shovel it and let the sun clear anything that remains naturally? That seems like a lot of cost and energy for minimal gain. I cannot see it clearing a foot of snow by the time you get home from work.

Tim

 

[quatroad]

the sensors activate the system automatically based on a combination of both temperature and moisture so just cold or just wet won't trigger it. The run time can be programmed for between 2-4 hours after the event ends. There is no run-off to freeze up because the system is designed to maintain an evaporative surface temperature of approx. 50-F until well after the precip ends. If I'm feelin' nostalgic for lumbar spasms I can always do a manual override and shut the system down and pick up a shovel. This'll be very helpful until my kid is old enough to pick up a shovel but he's only 3 1/2 so we'll be using this for a while.

 

[mrb]

looks good!

 

[jam022316]

Looks pretty sweet. Always wondered why they didn't make something like that. Let us know how it turns out this winter.

 

[redsky49]

How deep are you going to bury the cable? Generally it is 1-1/2" to 2" beneath the top surface of the slab.

Snow melt systems are great. Use them a lot for Hospital walkways, entrances to underground parking garages, heliports, etc. Typically they are enabled at temperatures below 37 degrees, and energized upon detection of moisture, plus they have a manual On/0ff switch that can function as a seasonal disconnect.

In many cases you will evaporate the snowfall and will have little runoff to worry about. Placement of the snow sensor is important so that it is not obstructed. Frequently I see these up on the roof.

If you wait for the snow to accumulate, these systems will be a disappointment. A heavy layer of snow is a challenge. Also strong winds can sometimes affect the performance.

Bet your neighbors will be jealous

Good luck with your project and post some pics of the first snowfall.

As always, offered only as opinion

 

[thammel]

I installed a snow melt system about 9 years ago on my prior house. I had an asphalt driveway that faced the west, as I recall (a downhill that faced the front of the house - lose it on the ice and you'd head for the front door!) and it would just melt enough to freeze up during the night. It seemed to be the last place in the County to melt. Anyway, I was building a new garage and needed new asphalt so I bit the bullet and installed a partial now melt system. I used cable I ordered from Delta-therm (check them out on the web) and as I recall it was their mineral insulated cable. I heated two tire tracks about 175' long each. I think each track was 18" wide and these lengths of 175' were divided in half so I essentially had four 40 amp (240 volt) circuits. I also buried a temperature sensor and had a moisture sensor at new asphalt ground level. One of the sensors failed after a while so I used a timer and air temperature sensor shortly before moving. I initially had 200 amp service at the house but had it upgraded to 400 amp so I could cover this snow melt system. Here in MD, we didn't have to use the system that often, but when doing so it was well worth it.

I did all the installation and finding an asphalt paver who would work with me was not simple. I did all the electrical work, trenching, etc. Laying out the wires was a full day's job and was very tiring. I started using a Remington 22 to drive (ramset?) nails into the base layer of asphalt but these really didn't hold too well. The whole thing probably cost me $10k, so itwasn't cheap at all.

Divorce forced the sale and move. I bought a house with a flat driveway with sun exposure and that is shorter than that one. I pay someone to plow as needed - 2-3 times a year. Much cheaper. And yes, I have a new garage as good or better than the one I built there - learned from my mistakes. Now I have 12' ceilings, went with 2 x 6 construction, permanent stairs to the "attic" and water/drain in the garage for powder room.

Feel free to ask anything about the snow melt system. It's high on my list of proud accomplishments along with installing a backup generator and 30 years ago retrofitting central AC to a house with only a gas forced hot air furnace.

Tom

 

[quatroad]

How deep are you going to bury the cable? Generally it is 1-1/2" to 2" beneath the top surface of the slab.

Yes, we're putting 1-1/2" as a finish, as per the manuf. spec. The sensors are elevated, not pavement mounted and I don't really expect to use it more than a few times a year.

As for all the discussion of cost to install and cost to operate, I can only say that the cost of lost work and surgery for herniated or ruptured lumbar disks is much, much greater. Had to give up both motorcycles which I mind a heck of a lot more than giving up snow shoveling

And Tom is right, finding an asphalt paver who will put aside his ego and experience and just follow the damn spec for this is really, really a PITA. They say they understand that the asphalt needs to be laid manually (hand shoveled to cover the cables) and then they can only use a manual panel ******** for compacting, but the second you turn around, they're rolling up with the CB64 and I've gotta get angry. And "NO TRACK MACHINES, NO RUBBER OR METAL" seems pretty clear, in any language, but apparently it's ambiguous to an "expert" asphalt guy.

 

[redsky49]

Don't listen to the naysayers. They're just jealous.

Operating costs are not excessive with most snow melt systems. Using Philadelphia for an example, Annual Operating Data, based on historical weather data, has an average melt time of 56 hours, with an average idle time of 992 hours. Based on your system size and electrical costs, average operating costs are easy to calculate. Compare that to the cost of a visit or two to the Chiropractor.

Make sure that snow melt runoff cannot get beneath the slab. It can later freeze and result in frost heave.

If you have the capability, it would be interesting to monitor the slab temperature when the snow melt is operational. Most systems do not have slab temperature monitoring, it's another expense and typically troublesome, though it can offer some operating savings if correctly done. You should see somewhere between 40 and 50 degrees once the slab has become thermally stable. If much over that (say 70 degrees) you have oversized the system (no harm though).

As always, offered only as opinion

 

[IDASHO]

Jealous? Sure, Im jealous.... jealous that he lives in a place that would only require it's use a few times a year

Around here we get 5+ feet of snow a year on average, with the previous two years holding records at 10+ feet each. And we have winters that dip below zero, with daytime highs well below freezing for weeks on end.

The only way to get rid of the snow is to MOVE it, not melt it. When it starts to melt is when it causes problems. Bigger problems is when it melts, then we get a freeze.

A system like that certainly could serve a purpose for very specific locations, but certainly not one that gets real quantities of snow, and real cold, sustained winters. In these areas, the snow might melt, but once it gets away from the heat.... instant ice rink.

That said, the original poster has yet to say where he lives.

 

[quatroad]

Don't listen to the naysayers. They're just jealous.
If you have the capability, it would be interesting to monitor the slab temperature when the snow melt is operational. Most systems do not have slab temperature monitoring, it's another expense and typically troublesome, though it can offer some operating savings if correctly done. You should see somewhere between 40 and 50 degrees once the slab has become thermally stable. If much over that (say 70 degrees) you have oversized the system (no harm though).

If we've done this correctly, we're expecting operational slab temp to be 50 degrees. We'll see about that.

A system like that certainly could serve a purpose for very specific locations, but certainly not one that gets real quantities of snow, and real cold, sustained winters. In these areas, the snow might melt, but once it gets away from the heat.... instant ice rink.

Actually, I'm hoping you're wrong about this. We specifically selected product from a vendor that predominantly makes commercial/industrial snow-melt systems who's biggest market is Scandanavia and Eastern Europe. The cables are from the Nexans folk are in Norway and have industrial installations at factories, quarries, etc. all over Northern/Eastern Europe. Those facilities need to keep vehicles and product moving year round and this seems to be one of the most frequently installed electric radiant systems in those applications. The sensors and controls are Canadian, also fairly well-versed in snow/ice abatement )

Gotta say though, systems from Hawaii or Tahiti might look nicer, but what do they know about this stuff?

 

[nate379]

What does that cost to run?

I thought about it, but it seems way too expensive to purchase and operate. We have a setup at the dorm rooms I used to live in and I remember shoveling slush and chipping ice all winter long.
And forget it if there was more than 3-4" of snow that was falling.


I suppose with a sloped drive and a drain on the bottom it'd work better though.

 

[quatroad]

600sf zone running at 32.5w/sf. We'll see how that pencils out with next winter's utility costs. As for capacity, the system is rated for 1" per hour w/15mph winds. More than that might strain the system but at more than that, we're probably not going to worry to much about some accumulation.

 

[nate379]

I just ran the math and it would cost me $3.65/hr to run it. If it ran 5hrs a day it would cost $550 a month to run... or about a years worth of normal electric use.

 

[IDASHO]

550 a month?

It would be cheaper to hire somebody, and possibly let them live in the back bedroom.

Is that right????

 

[quatroad]

I just ran the math and it would cost me $3.65/hr to run it. If it ran 5hrs a day it would cost $550 a month to run... or about a years worth of normal electric use.

Of course, utility charges vary.....5 hours/day may be an accurate estimate for your locale, but we evaluated weather records for our area over a 10-year period and concluded that we'll average 20-30 hours of run-time per month during a heavy snow season. AND, there's an override in case utility costs get insane or we're feeling nostalgic for shoveling.

 

[tdkkart]

5hrs/day would be an extreme winter, I don't know of too may places that get snow every day all winter. A couple days per week maybe, but not likely.

The useage numbers come out to 19.5kw/hr either way, or about $2.35/hr at my 12cents/kw rate, which also depends on how much the rest of the house uses. On my company's charts, once my rate goes over 40KW/day my rate drops to 2cents/KW, so in a way the more I use the less it costs me.

 

[nate379]

That was just a WOG. I looked into tying into my boiler with water lines instead of electric and it was $$$$$$$. Way way more than buying a tractor with a blower on it.

 

[redsky49]

Of course, utility charges vary.....5 hours/day may be an accurate estimate for your locale, but we evaluated weather records for our area over a 10-year period and concluded that we'll average 20-30 hours of run-time per month during a heavy snow season. AND, there's an override in case utility costs get insane or we're feeling nostalgic for shoveling.

If you estimate 20-30 hours per month during the primary snow season (Nov., Dec., Jan., Feb., and Mar.) you get 100-150 operational hours.

My historical data for New York's JFK Airport (closest location I have data for that is in proximity to Westchester Co.) shows operating hours as 61 hours melting, 885 hours idling, so likely the actual average usage will be closer to the upper end of the OP's expected usage. [idling hours are all non-snowfall operating hours when the ambient temperature is below 32 degrees. This is for ice prevention and may precede or may follow actual snowfall events].

Using 150 hrs. operation x 19.5kw x $0.10/kwh = $292.50 estimated annual operating cost. Actual costs dependent upon local utility rates and weather conditions.

So, depending upon the actual weather (the big unknown) and accelerating energy costs (the other unknown), a snow melt system can operate quite affordably. And some things just don't have a price tag

Does this fall in line with the OP's expectations?

 

[quatroad]

If you estimate 20-30 hours per month during the primary snow season (Nov., Dec., Jan., Feb., and Mar.) you get 100-150 operational hours.

My historical data for New York's JFK Airport (closest location I have data for that is in proximity to Westchester Co.) shows operating hours as 61 hours melting, 885 hours idling, so likely the actual average usage will be closer to the upper end of the OP's expected usage. [idling hours are all non-snowfall operating hours when the ambient temperature is below 32 degrees. This is for ice prevention and may precede or may follow actual snowfall events].

Using 150 hrs. operation x 19.5kw x $0.10/kwh = $292.50 estimated annual operating cost. Actual costs dependent upon local utility rates and weather conditions.

So, depending upon the actual weather (the big unknown) and accelerating energy costs (the other unknown), a snow melt system can operate quite affordably. And some things just don't have a price tag

Does this fall in line with the OP's expectations?

you are spot-on!

We'll see what projected vs. actual ends up looking like.

 

[redsky49]

you are spot-on!

We'll see what projected vs. actual ends up looking like.

Put a watt meter or elapsed timer on it so that you can break out the power usage from your overall electric bill.

Inquiring minds want to know!

Back at cha...

 

[nate379]

I know the city of Anchorage does use them here on a couple sidewalks and I remember the price tag for running it was WAY up there. I wish I had that exact figure now, but I don't.

It makes a BIG mess all over that section of town for sure. It's always slush and very thick ice all over the streets. Darn near a death trap trying to drive around there.

BTW no way I'd shovel that driveway. Snowblower at least, plow better!

 

[Dragster Racer]

I think that the ice rink issue may not be as big of an issue as it seems. You don't turn it on after you have an inch of snow to melt. If you get going as soon as it comes down, evaporation should help a lot. A neighbor has a boiler/water system for his garage and driveway. Works very well, and no ice.
I would think in northern illinois, this would be an expensive proposition with electric. Neighbor heats with corn, so it's a freebe for him.
It's hard to put a price on an injured back though. My wife went through that, and that is a nightmare.

 

[henrys103]

I got tired of fussing with snow also
I'm taking care of this problem by selling my house and moving south where the winters are short with very little snow

 

[mrb]

Put a watt meter or elapsed timer on it so that you can break out the power usage from your overall electric bill.

Inquiring minds want to know!

Back at cha...

he could use a emon kwh meter on them, but those are like 300 bucks....

 

[quatroad]

he could use a emon kwh meter on them, but those are like 300 bucks....

MRB, could you shoot me some info on which one you'd recommend?