Solar cost

[American Locomotive]

I am going to quote someone on another forum answering a similar question about a solar install. This gentleman lived in California and did his own install

I don't really understand that part about needing to replace the system when the panels hit ~15 years of age, and are "nearing the end of their useful life". This isn't the 1980s anymore. A modern solar panel will be expected to still output ~80-85% of its rated capacity when it's 25 years old.

 

[Git]

Git: About 2 or 3 out of 10 of my friends that regret their solar are on a leasing plan.

Why do they regret it?

 

[alfredeneuman]

Most took out loans on the equity of their homes, or financed it through the solar companies and said it wasn't worth it.

 

[tyme2par4]

Most took out loans on the equity of their homes, or financed it through the solar companies and said it wasn't worth it.

If they did it several years ago, the price was likely 4-5 times what it is today.
And leases are not a good deal, no matter what the salesman tells you.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Don't get me wrong. Not all I talked to were dissatisfied.
Some were neutral, and 1 thought it was the best thing to come along since sliced bread.

 

[Git]

Most took out loans on the equity of their homes, or financed it through the solar companies and said it wasn't worth it.

See, that is what I am talking about. It is not that they are unhappy with the actual solar array, it seems they are unhappy because they really could not afford it and perhaps overpaid because of interest fees, etc.

It's almost like bad mouthing a car that you leased because after you bought it you had buyers remorse and realized you got screwed on the loan.

 

[alfredeneuman]

A few of them paid cash.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The Kw that he sells back is in 1/10 or 1/20 of the original value not 1:1 what poco sell you... so if you are paying .10 per kw, you'll be lucky if you get 1 cent.... It's in the fine prints... read it when you get your net meter.

I don't know where you live, but THAT IS NOT TRUE IN MOST STATES ! PoCo must buy back at "retail". Now most states have a limit on just how much they must buy back.

 

[reader2580]

California power companies are very much against distributed solar, or at least they are against net metering. Th state of California changed net metering a while back so it as not as good for the customer. Power companies are also requiring new solar customers to sign up for time of use power plans that increase power costs significantly for most. I can understand why California solar customers might not be happy.

I have true net metering with my solar in Minnesota. Yes, I realize it isn’t fair to the power company, but not everything in life is fair.

 

[slow]

True net metering would be great, especially if you have over capacity. In FL from my understanding is you have net metering for monthly use, but any excess generated is squared up once a year gets paid at a reduced, predefined rate. It doesn't matter to me, it's hard to make a business case for me to go solar with no extra state tax credits and sub $0.09 a kwh electricity. My friends who pay $.27-$0.40+ in CA it makes economic sense.

 

[tyme2par4]

California power companies are very much against distributed solar, or at least they are against net metering. Th state of California changed net metering a while back so it as not as good for the customer. Power companies are also requiring new solar customers to sign up for time of use power plans that increase power costs significantly for most. I can understand why California solar customers might not be happy.

I have true net metering with my solar in Minnesota. Yes, I realize it isn’t fair to the power company, but not everything in life is fair.

TOU metering has been common in CA for several years. What is happening is they are changing the peak times to more suit the demand curve. CA still has basic net metering, but it is based off of the TOU rates. Due to the high penetration of solar in CA, they have a significant duck curve. The TOU rates are designed to promote people to use energy when it's generated rather than export it and buy it back later.
They also have incentives to buy batteries, which would absorb your excess generation, and allow you to use it later.

And it really isn't "unfair" to the power companies. The value of the energy you export is much higher than the value of wholesale energy, because it just gets used by your neighbors. It doesn't have to be transported over hundreds of miles of distribution lines.

 

[The One]

Are there any easy roof mounted kits that don't require expert levels of roofing knowledge?

I would like to do 2 8'x20' panels on my roof to supplement my usage.

 

[tyme2par4]

Are there any easy roof mounted kits that don't require expert levels of roofing knowledge?

I would like to do 2 8'x20' panels on my roof to supplement my usage.

Depends on the type of roofing. If you have asphalt shingles, and they are in good shape, it's really not difficult to install a racking system. IronRidge has a good configuration tool on their website. Then check out the various videos that QuickMountPV has available on how to install the flashing.
My dad and I did a complete 6kW install on his house last year.

 

[Git]

Are there any easy roof mounted kits that don't require expert levels of roofing knowledge?

I would like to do 2 8'x20' panels on my roof to supplement my usage.

I still have this thread bookmarked from a couple of years ago. It is one of the best threads I have seen (lots of pics) where I guy starts out with a hack contractor who screws up the job and then the homeowner takes over and actually does a pretty good job. A pretty long read, but very informative

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/foru...eally-bad-looking-for-some-help-advice-please

 

[rwa2004]

I think that most power companies billing is fairly honest and transparent when they show you the cost of the power (say $0.06/kWh) and the cost of the transport (say $0.04/kWh).

I (not related to any power company) think it would be unfair for them to be forced to pay out $0.10/kWh for power produced. If you want to produce excess power you should get paid the $0.06/kWh for what you produce. But, unless you own and maintain the power lines to ship that power out - you would have to pay $0.04/kWh for using their transportation. The only real value of your excess power is $0.02/kWh and that is what you should be paid.

 

[dogdog]

I don't know where you live, but THAT IS NOT TRUE IN MOST STATES ! PoCo must buy back at "retail". Now most states have a limit on just how much they must buy back.

You can be optimistic... but reality is well... different... It is just not business to get it give you back at retail (their retail, not your retail)... and it will never be the same value as what they would have sold to you... just saying... I know New York State is that way... maybe other state are different.

here for example this is what is done... at least in my utility company... not sure what the current new installation is...

http://legacyold.coned.com/dg/Net_Metering_Billing_FAQ.asp


after all these mumbles....

What if I generate more electricity than I use?

If your renewable system generates more electricity than you consume, your net consumption is negative. Your Con Edison bill will reflect some administrative charges (i.e. the basic service charge), but you will not be charged for any kilowatt-hours. Any excess kilowatt-hours from your renewable system will be carried forward and applied by Con Edison as a Net Meter Energy Credit for future billing periods.


Why do I have an annual reconciliation for my Net Metering Energy Credit?

Con Edison will reconcile any excess energy once a year by multiplying any excess kilowatt-hours you have remaining (your Net Meter Energy Credit) by the Avoided Cost of Energy. That dollar value will be applied to your account as a monetary credit.

What is the Avoided Cost of Energy rate used in the calculation of the annual reconciliation?

The Avoided Cost is the wholesale price of electricity (cost to the utility). This is the marginal cost to Con Edison to purchase the equivalent amount of power from the wholesale electricity market.

 

[Git]

There are two times that your utility company buys back (gives you credit) for excess electricity:

Daily - excess electricity goes back onto the grid and usually, you will receive a credit for it at the current retail rate

True Up/Annual billing - If you have accumulated excess electricity (credits) over the 12 months, you usually get paid off at the wholesale rate.

Don't confuse the two and you probably would have to check specifically with your state.

 

[theoldwizard1]

NV was one of the first states that had a large number of individual and small comapnies doing solar. Some people made a lot of money very quick !

Things have changed. While the state legislators have had a lot of pressure from the individual voter to allow "net metering" (i.e buy back at retail), the PoCo got something also. In some cases, the monthly "meter charge" (i.e. your minimum monthly bill whether you use any power of not) has double or tripled. This affects EVERY CUSTOMER, including the ones with no solar.

I can't blame the PoCo too much. They must maintain the infrastructure and still supply power on demand, like when the sun is not shinning.

 

[reader2580]

NEM 2.0 in California has resulted in about a 40% reduction in residential solar installs since implemented. The payback can be much longer, especially with forced TOU rates. The power company pays you around 19 cents for power produced during the day and sells you power at 42 cents during the evening peak hours. You basically have to produce about double the power during non-peak hours to pay for peak power.

There are also the non bypassable charges. This is a charge of almost 3 cents per KWh of solar produced. I think it has to be paid in cash and can't be covered with credits from solar, but not sure.

 

[Git]

I don't think that is entirely accurate...

You still get credit at the retail rate under TOU - so it depends on what the time of day is that you're generating the excess electricity. The pic shows part of my Feb 2018 bill when I was under TOU. You can see they are crediting me different rates for On-Peak, Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak. (negative numbers are a credit)

I do agree with you that they are tacking on $.03 per kWh for 'non-bypassable charges' - but it is only for electricity that you are getting from the grid.

Regarding the 40% decrease - I think there is a couple of things going on if the number is accurate.

First, there was a cap placed on the big 3 electrical utilities. Once 5% of their customers were using solar, they were allowed to change to Net Metering 2.0. So there was a rush for people to get in under the wire. SDGE capped out in 2016 and SCE capped when they hit the July 2017 deadline.

Also, there was some uncertainty about the 30% Federal Tax Credit - and would it be renewed. So again, people rushed to get their systems installed so they could take advantage of the credit. Fortunately, Congress did renew the credit for a couple of years

So ya, under Net Metering 2.0 there are additional fees - but on the other hand, prices have come down on the hardware that should help offset these fees

 

[reader2580]

I don't think that is entirely accurate...

You still get credit at the retail rate under TOU - so it depends on what the time of day is that you're generating the excess electricity. The pic shows part of my Feb 2018 bill when I was under TOU. You can see they are crediting me different rates for On-Peak, Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak. (negative numbers are a credit)

I do agree with you that they are tacking on $.03 per kWh for 'non-bypassable charges' - but it is only for electricity that you are getting from the grid.

I read the thing about NBC wrong. I thought it was subtracted from the price paid for electricity produced by solar.

A TOU plan that goes from 2 PM to 8 PM isn't so bad for solar, but during winter there is still a significant period during peak with no solar production.

I'm sure TOU is inevitable here in Minnesota. My electric CO-OP just spent a ton of money installing smart meters. The CO-OP has a TOU plan for electric vehicles that charges 45.5 cents between 4 PM and 8 PM. A plan like that would at least double my bill if not triple it. The peak of my solar production has passed by 4 pm, but my peak usage is between 5 PM and 10 PM.

 

[sleek98]

Just got a phone call from my solar installer. Power company was set to come install the net meter next week but they released on Friday that they are bringing back their 50 cent per watt rebate so if I don’t have them swap the meter until 1/1 I will get a 5,980 check cut back to me on 1/15. System is up and running and is lowering our bill now but I can’t sell back when we are overproducing. Net savings waiting until then is around 5,500. Told them to cancel the meter swap until 1/2. So now my installed cost is 1.51 a watt installed after rebates and the tax credit. Payback is now approx 8.8 years.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[reader2580]

Regarding the 40% decrease - I think there is a couple of things going on if the number is accurate.

First, there was a cap placed on the big 3 electrical utilities. Once 5% of their customers were using solar, they were allowed to change to Net Metering 2.0. So there was a rush for people to get in under the wire. SDGE capped out in 2016 and SCE capped when they hit the July 2017 deadline.

People were obviously worried about NEM 2.0 if it generated that big a surge in orders for solar.

Some claim that NEM 2.0 is only a $10 per month difference. If so, why the panic to avoid NEM 2.0?

I would like to get four more panels for my installation, but prices have gone up 50% and I can't really justify more panels for what they cost now.

 

[tyme2par4]

Just got a phone call from my solar installer. Power company was set to come install the net meter next week but they released on Friday that they are bringing back their 50 cent per watt rebate so if I don’t have them swap the meter until 1/1 I will get a 5,980 check cut back to me on 1/15. System is up and running and is lowering our bill now but I can’t sell back when we are overproducing. Net savings waiting until then is around 5,500. Told them to cancel the meter swap until 1/2. So now my installed cost is 1.51 a watt installed after rebates and the tax credit. Payback is now approx 8.8 years.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

you must have some low electric rates if a $1.51/W installed cost has an 8 year payback. Here in NH I did a self install at about $1.25/W and it should pay for itself in 4-5 years.

 

[reader2580]

you must have some low electric rates if a $1.51/W installed cost has an 8 year payback. Here in NH I did a self install at about $1.25/W and it should pay for itself in 4-5 years.

My install was around $1.20/watt after tax credit and it will still be a 10 year pay off for me. My electric bill for the year was $792.

I'm not producing as many watts as I should be, but I think a tree has to come down that is causing major shading issues. I was getting great production in the spring before the tree leafed out. All of my planning was done in the winter and I thought the tree was far enough away to avoid shading.

 

[Git]

People were obviously worried about NEM 2.0 if it generated that big a surge in orders for solar.

Some claim that NEM 2.0 is only a $10 per month difference. If so, why the panic to avoid NEM 2.0?

I would like to get four more panels for my installation, but prices have gone up 50% and I can't really justify more panels for what they cost now.

Keep in mind this was around the time that Nevada completely killed their solar industry when they eliminated net metering

https://blog.blueravensolar.com/net-metering-back-nevada

I had always thought about solar, but seeing what was going on made me jump off the fence and get it installed in 2016. So I am under net metering 1.0 which is grandfathered in for 20 years so I feel reasonably safe that not only will my installation get paid for, it will turn a nice profit for me

Also, net metering 2.0 in California only runs until 2019 at which point the Public Utility Commision will reevaluate it...

This also brings up a good point about panel orientation. Most people can not fit all their panels on their most south-facing roof. So then you have to decide do you want to go with your East or West roof? (My house actually skews slightly to the North East, so my South roof actually faces about 195 degrees). That means my West roof is at 205 degrees - I actually had one very reputable contractor refuse to install on that roof because it of the orientation was too far to the North. But, the West roof will keep on producing electricity later in the afternoon/evening when the TOU rates during the week are at their highest (2 PM and 8 PM is $.37). So people coming home from work and turning on their AC are paying the price

 

[Git]

I'm not producing as many watts as I should be, but I think a tree has to come down that is causing major shading issues. I was getting great production in the spring before the tree leafed out. All of my planning was done in the winter and I thought the tree was far enough away to avoid shading.

That is a problem when you are using a string inverter. You can have one or two panels that are affected by the shade can bring the output of the whole array down.

here is a pretty good explanation using a clog piped analogy:
https://blog.aurorasolar.com/shading-losses-for-pv-systems-and-techniques-to-mitigate-them/

One way to solve the problem is to use micro-inverters on each panel but they are more expensive then just a string inverter and at the time when I bought my system, the micro-inverters could not handle the output of my panels - 320 watts. (they would cut off or 'clip' the output at around 300 watts. My solution was a compromise - 'power optimizers' which are very similar to micro-inverters but they work in conjunction with a string inverter and are priced in between the two other methods

https://www.solaredge.com/us/products/power-optimizer#/

another good reason to not just go with the lowest cost per watt install

 

[99LeCouch]

Had a 3.5 kw system installed earlier this year. Sticker was $13,300 or so ($3.80/watt) for an electric box upgrade, 10 LG NeON 350 panels and a SolarEdge HD-Wave inverter. The installation was done very neatly, and has not leaked or shifted that we can tell. We had a space constraint, and needed fewer, more efficient panels.

N.Y. was throwing all sorts of money at solar PV installation this year, so it made sense. After the 30% federal credit, a 25% state credit, and a $1200 rebate to the installer, we are shelling out $5500, or $1.57/watt. Our utility has us on a true net metering plan, and any excess gets rolled over. Our electricity is 17 cents per kWh, so payback should be pretty quick.

 

[Git]

That is a pretty sweet deal, congrats

The big thing (or next big thing) in California is they are pushing battery storage like the Tesla Wall. Part of the requirements for the incentives is that your battery has to discharge all of it's stored electricity several times in a certain time frame, so your actually helping to take the load off the utility. For the size of my system, I would need at least 2 of the Tesla batteries and even with the incentive, it is still too expensive for me at this point, but someday I would like to.

 

[Tunajoe]

I installed a 10.26kw ground mount system 3 years ago.
Cost was about $18000. Minus the 30% tax credit

That put me in at around $12,600 total cost.
Ventura county where I live, doesn't charge permit fees.
I found a guy in Fresno that drew plans for around $300.
My electrical bill prior to solar was averaging around 1500 kWh per month.
I'm producing around 40-50 kWh per day with my system.
I installed Solar world panels and Enphase M250 micro inverters

 

[reader2580]

That is a problem when you are using a string inverter. You can have one or two panels that are affected by the shade can bring the output of the whole array down.

here is a pretty good explanation using a clog piped analogy:
https://blog.aurorasolar.com/shading-losses-for-pv-systems-and-techniques-to-mitigate-them/

One way to solve the problem is to use micro-inverters on each panel but they are more expensive then just a string inverter and at the time when I bought my system, the micro-inverters could not handle the output of my panels - 320 watts. (they would cut off or 'clip' the output at around 300 watts. My solution was a compromise - 'power optimizers' which are very similar to micro-inverters but they work in conjunction with a string inverter and are priced in between the two other methods

https://www.solaredge.com/us/products/power-optimizer#/

another good reason to not just go with the lowest cost per watt install

I am using Solaredge with optimizers.

 

[Cobradriver]

I installed a 10.26kw ground mount system 3 years ago.
Cost was about $18000. Minus the 30% tax credit

That put me in at around $12,600 total cost.
Ventura county where I live, doesn't charge permit fees.
I found a guy in Fresno that drew plans for around $300.
My electrical bill prior to solar was averaging around 1500 kWh per month.
I'm producing around 40-50 kWh per day with my system.
I installed Solar world panels and Enphase M250 micro inverters

Tunajoe....

Could you give me a rough idea on what just the mounting system cost?

What is it composed of?

I talked with a retailer and he said he would draw up the plans for me. The county said I can do the entire install except the panel tie in. My goal would be to generate enough to zero my bill plus a small surplus. 10KW would do that pretty easily.

If FPL bought all the surplus power at retail after a customers bill is zero....i'd buy all the empty lots around me and have a five acre solar farm .

 

[Cardboard Man]

Do any of you guys who have actually installed panels use any products from Sunpower, or have financing through Mosaic? I'm considering a system soon and would like some real-world feedback...

 

[Git]

SunPower is top of the line. They make their own panels. They have their own certified installers. Prepare to pay a premium, and it should be noted that a lot of people believe that a large part of that 'premium cost' is to cover their longer than normal warranty

 

[99LeCouch]

I had a Sunpower system quoted out. It was $17k for 11 330w panels and micro inverters. At $4.68 a watt, it was a bit of a stretch. The LG/SolarEdge system made more sense for us at 88 cents a watt cheaper for similar annual production, a similar shade tolerance, similar panel level monitoring, and similar panel degradation.

Sunpower is good if you want top of the line and want to spend accordingly. Also good if there are space constraints, and need high output panels.

 

[Cardboard Man]

I have a quote for both a SunPower and LG piecemeal system. Tomorrow I'd like to lay them both out for you experienced guys and get your opinion...

 

[Git]

I had a SunPower Contractor give me a quote for a SunPower System and a system using LG Panels with Solar Edge. Price difference was over $10k between the two. The output is exactly the same, the same people were going to install it - basically, the only difference was the warranty. Went with LG/Solar Edge system from this contractor

 

[6768rogues]

No, thanks. I have no desire to be in the electrical generating business. My brother in law paid $50K for his solar system and I reminded him that $50K is enough money for me to buy electricity for my home and farm for about 25 years, without considering maintenance, replacement of dead equipment and interest on his loan. At age 66, I hope I have 25 years left.

 

[slow]

unfortunately, where I am at, sunlight is plentiful, but we don't have time of day metering and have cheap electric. So owning my own system doesn't provide a pure monetary return on investment. Sub $0.09 kw delivered makes a system hard to justify

 

[Git]

There are other reasons to go solar other than saving money. Some people strongly believe in 'clean energy'. (Personally, I did it to save money)

If you live in one of the darker blue colored states it makes sense to go solar, otherwise you never will recoup your costs in a timely manner