Solar thread for Teken

[JBurgess]

Decided to reduce my utility bills.

Big array 6.3KW:

Small array 3.4KW

Inverters:

Disconnect and Solar meter

Solar hot water heater:

Recent electric bill amounts:

Nov-10 $9.11
Oct-10 $26.50
Sep-10 $42.29
Aug-10 $64.28
Jul-10 $68.71
Jun-10 $54.98
May-10 $50.46

Before energy saving improvements and solar my Aug bill used to be $450, with more insulation doors, windows and a new airconditioner it came down to $300. With the solar $65 I'm happy.

 

[RPH]

Great numbers and looks nice an warm. Been trying to figure out how much I can do with solar. Michigan is toug.h

 

[mrb]

whats your calculated payback period if there were no taxpayer incentives?

 

[Teken]

JBurgess,

First off thank you for taking the time to start this thread and share your solar system unit for all us to drool over and learn from !

Would you mind giving me some details as to what was involved in this solar set up.

I realize that depending upon location some of the costs are either shared, credited, or refunded to the end user.

So here goes:

1. What was the out of pocket expense not taking into account any credits, refunds?

2. Was the electrical audit they performed in your opinion accurate for the system you have up there now?

3. How many deep cycle batteries do you have in this system. Assuming this is meant also as a alternative source of power. As some people strictly deploy their system so it feeds back into the grid to receive a reduced electrical bill.

4. What is the brand and warranty on these solar panels?

5. Would you do this again?

6. Any down sides to this install / investment ?

 

[mrb]

Grid-tie systems like this dont have batteries, and cant even be used during a power failure. They have no transfer mechanism and the inverters shut down when no utility power is present.

 

[Teken]

Grid-tie systems like this dont have batteries, and cant even be used during a power failure. They have no transfer mechanism and the inverters shut down when no utility power is present.

This is what I gathered . . . I am just in the *planning stages* and my goal is to have a this system which will allow me to use it as a alternate source of energy etc and also defer what ever extra power back into the grid . . .

Right now I am waiting for this nano solar film to be made more available and efficient . . .

 

[JBurgess]

whats your calculated payback period if there were no taxpayer incentives?

Never if no incentives were involved. My utility is a municipal corporation, so I guess it’s incentives are taxpayer money too. My payback is about 7 years depending on rate increases.

Worse than that Solar doesn’t reduce my peak demand, since if a big cloud comes by my production can drop from 7.5KW to 800 watts in a few seconds and many times my peak consumption (not net) is not when the solar is producing. I’m not sure it reduces CO emissions that much since the utility has to have spinning reserves for these events.

But the utility money was available and was going to be spent if I used it or not.

 

[JBurgess]

1. What was the out of pocket expense not taking into account any credits, refunds?

2. Was the electrical audit they performed in your opinion accurate for the system you have up there now?

3. How many deep cycle batteries do you have in this system. Assuming this is meant also as a alternative source of power. As some people strictly deploy their system so it feeds back into the grid to receive a reduced electrical bill.

4. What is the brand and warranty on these solar panels?

5. Would you do this again?

6. Any down sides to this install / investment ?

1. cost installed was about $6 /watt for the big array. Utility rebate to the installer was $3 /watt, rest was out of pocket, but $1000 in state and 30% federal tax credit on amount after rebate.

2. Yes, but if you have a TOU plan, be sure of production during peak and off peak. My winter peak is 5 to 9 am and pm, so almost no winter peak production but the rates are lower.

3. As MRB said grid tied, so no batteries. But SMA makes an inverter that would let it be an island, but would cost about 10K more to add this. I don’t have many power failures, so I skipped this.

4. Kyeocera panels, I think 5 year workmanship and 20 year output.

5. depends on incentives. My utility spent it’s budget until July and is only offering $1 / watt right now.

6. Had issues with the installer, but the good side is the shade from the panels keeps my garage cooler in the summer.

I added the smaller array myself at about $4/ watt, only looking at the 30% federal credit for it.

 

[Teken]

1. Did the company ask you how old your current shingles were, and how many service years you had left?

2. Are there any safety concerns that the average person needs to be aware of?

3. The bracing they used appears to be the a typical style I have seen on a few solar installs. What if any information has the dealer told you the wind load / shear these things are designed for?

4. Please define TOU plan . . .

 

[JBurgess]

1. Did the company ask you how old your current shingles were, and how many service years you had left?

2. Are there any safety concerns that the average person needs to be aware of?

3. The bracing they used appears to be the a typical style I have seen on a few solar installs. What if any information has the dealer told you the wind load / shear these things are designed for?

4. Please define TOU plan . . .

1. They did the install on the metal building. I did it on the shingles. It was a judgment call I’m 18 years into 30 year shingles.

2. Other than falling off roof while washing panels, non that I think of. Metal building has 20 foot sidewalls so it’s a long ways down. I wash the panels if there is no rain for 30 days. Usually about a 3% improvement after washing.

3.. Mounting rails are certified for 130 MPH, but my code is only for 90MPH. I had to add some bracing to the trusses to meet the wind uplift. It was runners perpendicular to the trusses.

4. Time of Use Plan. For me summer is about $0.20/KWh from 1 p to 9 pm weekdays and .$0.07/KWh other times. Winter is 5 to 9 am and PM $0.10/KWh and $0.07/KWh other times.

 

[Teken]

Correct me if I am wrong . . . If your solar system detects a drop in voltage.

ie. If the POCO is working on the line and cuts the power. Your system will detect this fault and turn off the back feeding power correct?

This is to protect the person down the line from electrocution . . .

 

[hillbilly1]

I've been threatning to do micro hydro for over 25 years now, just too lazy to build the wheel and everything that goes with it. Pay off is quicker and output is 24 hour barring a severe drought, but the stream I have has never dried up in the 47 years I have lived there. As far as I know though, there is no government (our) money for hydro though, so I would be footing the entire bill. Our power company is still relativly cheap due to their numerous hydro plants, but that can change, as their hydro's probably will be subsidising there coal plants when cap and tax passes.

 

[JBurgess]

Correct me if I am wrong . . . If your solar system detects a drop in voltage.

ie. If the POCO is working on the line and cuts the power. Your system will detect this fault and turn off the back feeding power correct?

This is to protect the person down the line from electrocution . . .

For voltage or frequency out of range it will disconect for about 5 min and check for power before restarting.

The POCO shows up and locks out the solar disconect anyway when working my 'hood.

 

[Teken]

The two very large solar regulators you have attached to the wall. What sort of information can be tracked / recorded with this unit?

Name of the unit and the cost if you know . . .

 

[JBurgess]

The two very large solar regulators you have attached to the wall. What sort of information can be tracked / recorded with this unit?

Name of the unit and the cost if you know . . .

Those are inverters. They change the DC from the panels to AC.

They track hours on and total KW produced, production for the day as well as current line voltage, power and array voltage. Also something about CO2, but I don’t care about, I sold my next 20 years of credits to the utility for the rebate.

I have a third party monitoring system I can see with my PC for both the inverters and the house.

The inverters are SB6000 and SB5000 by SMA.

I think the price is around $3000 each.



http://www.sma-america.com/en_US.html

 

[Teken]

Is the safety device we were speaking about part of this inverter assembly?

 

[JBurgess]

Is the safety device we were speaking about part of this inverter assembly?

The voltage and frequency detection, yes. It also contains a ground fault detector for the arrays.

 

[Teken]

I sold my next 20 years of credits to the utility for the rebate.

I have a third party monitoring system I can see with my PC for both the inverters and the house.

Could you clarify the 20 year credit part for me please . . .

 

[hillbilly1]

I installed a 30 watt system with a battery for an electric gate opener, works pretty good during the summer, but during the winter the sun hits it for only a couple of hours due to the mountains and trees, I set up the battery with quick connects so that the home owner can keep a charged one as backup when the panels don't keep the one being used charged up. They are building a 1 meg farm on the other side of the county where it's flat and open. Looked at being an installer, but once the government funding dry's up, so would the work.That is unless somebody makes a big breakthru in the constuction and efficency of the panels, but it is pretty cool how it works.

 

[Teken]

The break through right now as of this writing is nano cells . . . Some smart SOB has figured out to mix the right materials which are reactive and more efficient than standard cells all the while this stuff is actually printed out in rolls!

It's fast, cheap, and waffer thin . . .

Why this new nano tech hasn't hit our local markets is making me wonder . . .

 

[hillbilly1]

The break through right now as of this writing is nano cells . . . Some smart SOB has figured out to mix the right materials which are reactive and more efficient than standard cells all the while this stuff is actually printed out in rolls!

It's fast, cheap, and waffer thin . . .

Why this new nano tech hasn't hit our local markets is making me wonder . . .

Cool! With all of the new electric car chargers coming out, we will need every Killowatt! The new fast chargers will recharge a car in 20-30 minutes, but they draw a heck of a lot power.

 

[mrb]

my big peeve with solar, is without any subsidy it doesnt pencil out financially. You basically end up with taxpayers subsidizing people's electric bills. That money should be going to infrastructure, not to individuals (i see it as an illegal gift of public funds).

 

[JBurgess]

Could you clarify the 20 year credit part for me please . . .

As I understand my legislature compelled the utilities to have a certain percentage of their power from renewable sources. So they when they give you an incentive for installing solar they get the renewable energy credits for the next 20 years in exchange for that payment.

They get the funding for this through higher rates.

Another income transfer program. I am opposed to them, but not to proud to take advantage of them.

 

[Grumpy365]

my big peeve with solar, is without any subsidy it doesnt pencil out financially. You basically end up with taxpayers subsidizing people's electric bills. That money should be going to infrastructure, not to individuals (i see it as an illegal gift of public funds).

I would LOVE to have an array ( i have gone so far as getting a grid tied inverter). BUT this^^ is my issue.

In my state the state doesn't really kick in much if anything, the city doesn't kick in, the power company doesn't kick in, but their is federal money.

 

[JBurgess]

my big peeve with solar, is without any subsidy it doesnt pencil out financially. You basically end up with taxpayers subsidizing people's electric bills. That money should be going to infrastructure, not to individuals (i see it as an illegal gift of public funds).

Even large scale doesn't work. They going to build a $10 million plant near me to produce $8 million in electricity over 20 years. The subsidies and credits? $9 million.

Makes no sense at all.

 

[Teken]

Even large scale doesn't work. They going to build a $10 million plant near me to produce $8 million in electricity over 20 years. The subsidies and credits? $9 million.

Makes no sense at all.

Well I won't lie . . . I am envious of you and what some of that hard working money you have invested into this solar system . . .

I do agree that the tech should stand on its own merits and be able to accomplish the end results with out the Joe Average paying for others systems.

But, the reality is we have to work the system to our benefit . . .

I have many more questions for you and those who have a system in place. I will take more time to read over the links and the forums you have provided.

My goal is to be as informed as possible prior to making the big jump so as I can reap the benefits with the least amount of $$$ invested that makes sense over the ROI . . .

 

[Dragster Racer]

I'm really more interested in the hot water heater. Cost and effectiveness.

 

[JBurgess]

I'm really more interested in the hot water heater. Cost and effectiveness.

Haven’t turned the backup heat for the water yet. It has a 80 gallon tank, keeps the water at 150, then mixes it with a tempering valve to a reasonable temp before it goes to the house. That makes the effective size of the tank larger.

My weather in Phoenix is lot warmer than yours, that may affect performance.

The solar hot water is again subsidized. Cost $5k, Utility kicks in $1400, 30% federal on the rest. I needed to replace the hot water heater anyway that would have been around $800.

If I had natural gas available I don’t think it would have made sense, but I only have electricity.

 

[Teken]

From the time you said go, how long did it take to fully deploy this solar system?

 

[JBurgess]

From the time you said go, how long did it take to fully deploy this solar system?

Roughly 3 months until the submission of plans for permit (mostly waiting for engineering on attaching to metal building, some for utility approval)

Then 1 month in plan review

1 week for install

Another week to remove and reinstall correctly

About a month for city inspection, utility inspections and paperwork to turn on. (city sent clearance to utility, but not the kind they wanted. Would have gone on longer if I had not intervened)

So about 5-1/2 months from when I signed to turn on.

 

[Falcon67]

I'm really more interested in the hot water heater. Cost and effectiveness.

Reading up on the costs, a hybrid heat pump water heater is a better deal. Easier install too, probably a longer life. I'm sure the materials have been updated, but there was a rash of that roof water heater stuff in the late 80s here and you don't see them up there anymore. If I was going to do any "solar" water heating, I would put a shortie 30 gallon in the attic above the regular heater with some piping+shutoffs and leave it at that. No problem here getting 120F temps in the attic.

 

[walrus]

Reading up on the costs, a hybrid heat pump water heater is a better deal. Easier install too, probably a longer life. I'm sure the materials have been updated, but there was a rash of that roof water heater stuff in the late 80s here and you don't see them up there anymore. If I was going to do any "solar" water heating, I would put a shortie 30 gallon in the attic above the regular heater with some piping+shutoffs and leave it at that.

I've got both, a Heat pump hot water heater and 2 3 by 8 collectors on the roof. The heat pump only turns on at night, to keep my water temp as low as possible in the morning. This allows my solar to do as much as possible for heating my water.
Solar for hot water is a no brainer, mine has been up since 91, I took it down to reroof other than that absolutely no issues except a controller that got hit in a storm 18 years ago. It should be required in any new construction as far as I'm concerned.

One other thing about the heat pump, it dehumidifies my basement, so if you're running a dehumidifier it really makes sense to have a heat pump

 

[Teken]

One other thing about the heat pump, it dehumidifies my basement, so if you're running a dehumidifier it really makes sense to have a heat pump

Could you clarify this statement for me a little more . . .

 

[Teken]

Roughly 3 months until the submission of plans for permit (mostly waiting for engineering on attaching to metal building, some for utility approval)

Then 1 month in plan review

1 week for install

Another week to remove and reinstall correctly

About a month for city inspection, utility inspections and paperwork to turn on. (city sent clearance to utility, but not the kind they wanted. Would have gone on longer if I had not intervened)

So about 5-1/2 months from when I signed to turn on.

So the physical aspect isn't very long at all I see . . . Not too surprised about your feed-back about the time it took the red tape to be passed along and completed though . . .

Could you also clarify what was wrong in the initial install that needed it to be redone?

I ask because this might be something I want to pencil in to keep in mind!

 

[JBurgess]

Could you also clarify what was wrong in the initial install that needed it to be redone?

I ask because this might be something I want to pencil in to keep in mind!

They used these brackets to mount two rails on one stand off. That resulted in only ½ the attachment points to the roof the engineer called for in his drawings.

They left wires draping on the roof.

They didn’t tighten the bolts to hold panels down in several places.

 

[Teken]

They used these brackets to mount two rails on one stand off. That resulted in only ½ the attachment points to the roof the engineer called for in his drawings.

They left wires draping on the roof.

They didn’t tighten the bolts to hold panels down in several places.

 

[ddawg16]

Assuming the incentives and rebates are still there this coming year, I plan to make solar a part of my 2 story addition.

While there may be a lot of questions regarding the economics of solar....like any technology, you have to start somewhere. Just like the electric car debacle....you can't get the cost down unless you start building them.....remember how expensive the first computers were?

Anyway...here are a couple of links....
Nano Solar - Lower cost/kw...but only about 15% effecient

SpectroLab - Uses focused technology for an effeciency of about 40%

At the end of the day, cost/kw and reliability will win out....

In the mean time....the more of us that do it...the better......while some people think that the other electric consumers end up footing the bill....in reality the solar cells reduce peak loading and is helping the power companies hold off building new capacity....

Key technologies that I think we need for our future survival...

Batteries - Lower cost...higher density
Super conducting - motor output would increase substantially....power companies would save a lot on power transmission
Solar Cells - Sure is a lot of free energy hitting the Earth every day....

So...couple cheap solar cells charging high density batteries in your house and car using super conducting wire....who needs gas.

 

[Teken]

John,

If you do actually roll with this it would be most helpful if you could document the process and the up's and down's of your experience along with of course . . .

Lots of progress pictures etc . . .

Have you decided what sort of system you want? I have already determined that I want mine to be a combination of on grid, but have the ability to use the power during the evening as the primary source of power . . .

This in my mind covers all the bases for all: Reduces my hydro bill, supplies the POCO extra energy, gives me the redundancy of power when I require it to supplement the 21 kwh NG back up generator to reduce ever increasing gas costs etc . . .

 

[walrus]

Could you clarify this statement for me a little more . . .

The heat pump is just like a dehumidifier, instead of hot air getting exhausted into your basement, they have a water jacket and water gets heated up. The moist air in your basement runs thru a cold coil, dew point and water drips out. I have mine high enough to have that water run right into my sewer, some use a condensate pump and pump it out doors or into the sewer. The heat pump doesn't run as much as a dehumidifier might but it takes some water out of the air. You get double duty for the same amount of electricity

 

[walrus]

Here's a few pics of what I have