Solar thread for Teken

[Teken]

I was not aware of this added benefit . . .

 

[ddawg16]

John,

If you do actually roll with this it would be most helpful if you could document the process and the up's and down's of your experience along with of course . . .

Lots of progress pictures etc . . .

Have you decided what sort of system you want? I have already determined that I want mine to be a combination of on grid, but have the ability to use the power during the evening as the primary source of power . . .

This in my mind covers all the bases for all: Reduces my hydro bill, supplies the POCO extra energy, gives me the redundancy of power when I require it to supplement the 21 kwh NG back up generator to reduce ever increasing gas costs etc . . .

Fully intend to document it.

I live in S. California....get plenty of sunlight. The 2-story addition is going to have a least 200 sq/ft of roof pointed right at the sun. The utility in my area uses "Net" billing when you have solar...basically....any excess I produce during the day offsets anything I use at night. In other words....if I produce more than I use...I can get a rebate....assuming it's more than the transmission charges (cost to just be connected to the grid).

Believe it or not, my average usage is about 10 KWH/day....hence, a 1KW system would pretty much put me at a wash (typical outputs vary from .8 to 1.4KWH depending on sunlight). Typical 1KW system takes up about 100 sq/ft and looks to cost about $5K installed after rebates. With some of the local incentives....my cost would be less. Hence, I would be looking at about a 8 year payback....

And that is assuming rates do not go up.

Options would include adding batteries so that I have backup power in the event of a power failure.....needed? In the 10 years we have been here, I think we have had maybe 4-5 outages of more than a few minutes.

As I get closer to the final planning stages of the addition, I'll start calling companies....I'm curious to see what effect if any new construction has on price.....and how much wiggle room on price there is....

 

[Teken]

You're using 10 kwh a day?

 

[hillbilly1]

my big peeve with solar, is without any subsidy it doesnt pencil out financially. You basically end up with taxpayers subsidizing people's electric bills. That money should be going to infrastructure, not to individuals (i see it as an illegal gift of public funds).

Wait till you find out what their giving the owners of the commercial EV charging stations and the free power their giving to the EV owners!

The heat pump is just like a dehumidifier, instead of hot air getting exhausted into your basement, they have a water jacket and water gets heated up. The moist air in your basement runs thru a cold coil, dew point and water drips out. I have mine high enough to have that water run right into my sewer, some use a condensate pump and pump it out doors or into the sewer. The heat pump doesn't run as much as a dehumidifier might but it takes some water out of the air. You get double duty for the same amount of electricity

If the space that the water heater is in is un-conditioned your fine, but if it is in a closet in a living area, the heat is collected from the surrounding area, which if heated will increase your heating bills, on the other hand if it is cooled, it will reduce the load on the a/c unit. Heat pump water heaters are not efficent for everybody, but are good in certain situations.

 

[ddawg16]

You're using 10 kwh a day?

Ok.....so it bumps up to about 11KWH/day in the winter...

I also have gas...water heater, stove top (oven is electric...a self cleaning cycle is a lot cheaper than a can of oven cleaner) and central gas heating.

My gas bill is about $20 in the summer and goes up to about $60 in the winter.....you know, those California winters can be tough.

I should also point out that except for the bathroom, all the lights in the house are CFL's.

 

[walrus]

If the space that the water heater is in is un-conditioned your fine, but if it is in a closet in a living area, the heat is collected from the surrounding area, which if heated will increase your heating bills, on the other hand if it is cooled, it will reduce the load on the a/c unit. Heat pump water heaters are not efficent for everybody, but are good in certain situations.

Yeah, I heat with wood, a few more sticks and I got hot water. Its 6,000 Btu's so if you have a huge hot water load it won't work well that either. Mine runs for 4 or 5 hrs at night(assuming no solar gain) to get my tank to 130. On the other hand if you have teenage kids, they run out of hot water which is a win win
A local energy guru used his to make a huge walk in cooler to store veggies over the winter

 

[MScott]

This is an interesting thread. My situation is a bit different, as I am trying to decide whether to go with fully off grid solar. I will be building in the spring, and the estimate for hooking up to the grid is around $35,000. As a result, I am looking at options and have been given the following estimate.

10-175 watt solar panels @ 24.5 amps @ 48 Volts = 6630w/day
10 panel mount frame
8 guage, 12 metre power cable
Solar/Inverter, disconnect switches
1 FM60 Charge Controller
Xantrex Inverter XW6048 w Distribution Panel
Inverter/Generator transer switch
Inverter cables and complete hdwe. kit
Lightning arrestors and grounding kit
32 - 6 volt industrial batteries (1.480Ah@48 volt)
Battery box and vent kit
Electrical inspection certificate for installed system.

Total installed price incl taxes $31,910.

This is for a roof mounted system. If I want it post mounted (adjustable for seasonable changes so more efficient) it would cost an additional $1500-$2000. I would also require a generator backup which is not included. An energy audit estimated that I would need about 6500 watts/day.

Does this seem reasonable? I realize that there will be replacement cost for the batteries and probably the panels, but it also means no electrical bills.

 

[Teken]

Almost 32K and change for a off grid system? Could you provide us with the name of the solar panel vendor.

Also, will you also be returning any unused power back to the grid to help offset future costs?

 

[MScott]

Almost 32K and change for a off grid system? Could you provide us with the name of the solar panel vendor.

Also, will you also be returning any unused power back to the grid to help offset future costs?

I'm not sure yet who the panel vendor is, but the quote is from a local solar installation firm and seems to be less than others I have seen.
There will be no opportunity to sell back to the grid since I am building over 1Km from the nearest grid source. As I mentioned, it would cost me 35K to have a hydro hookup so the solar option is an alternative.
Do you feel that this price is too high?

 

[Teken]

I'm not sure yet who the panel vendor is, but the quote is from a local solar installation firm and seems to be less than others I have seen.
There will be no opportunity to sell back to the grid since I am building over 1Km from the nearest grid source. As I mentioned, it would cost me 35K to have a hydro hookup so the solar option is an alternative.
Do you feel that this price is too high?

Right now I don't have any firm baseline to compare your solar system to anyone else's as they all use different brands, and specs etc.

So price is hard to say . . . But, a 6.6kwh system costing 32K seems near the hi end if not more . . .

I would be interested to see if the other vendors who quoted you were all using the same gear etc. Others wise how can a person be a informed consumer if he can't compare apple to apples??

Insight . . .

 

[MScott]

This is the only firm quote I have received yet, but I know that many of the solar providers are charging $70,000 to $90,000 for the 10K systems under the Ontario Government FIT (Feed in Tariff) plan. I'm not sure whether you are aware of this plan, but it provides a 20 year guaranteed 80.2 cent per KWH on power (up to 10K) fed back into the grid. (You must be on the grid to use it) The power can not be used directly by the homeowner so those systems have no battery storage. The requirements are somewhat stricter than an off grid system (Canadian made panels and inverters etc.) Many Ontario solar providers are not even offering off grid systems since the profits are so great on the FIT systems.
I am still in the info gathering stage and am expecting some additional quotes shortly.

 

[Falcon67]

Almost 32K and change for a off grid system? Could you provide us with the name of the solar panel vendor.

Also, will you also be returning any unused power back to the grid to help offset future costs?

You gotta start pricing this stuff. Figure a very conservative price of $800 for a 200w panel, 6.5kW comes to around $26,000 in panels alone. Now add installation, mounting, inverters, batteries (for off-grid) and 32K starts to sound like a good price.

Payback - If I figure right at 6600 w/day = 2406kW per year. At 11.5 cents /kWh your payback on that is about 115 years.

 

[mrb]

You gotta start pricing this stuff. Figure a very conservative price of $800 for a 200w panel, 6.5kW comes to around $26,000 in panels alone. Now add installation, mounting, inverters, batteries (for off-grid) and 32K starts to sound like a good price.

Payback - If I figure right at 6600 w/day = 2406kW per year. At 11.5 cents /kWh your payback on that is about 115 years.

your math is correct, but for the guy who was considering it -it pencils out because it was going to cost him 35K to get power lines to his house anyways. During the life of the system he will still have to put away 5 or so cents a KWH to cover maintenance costs, battery replacement, etc.

 

[MScott]

your math is correct, but for the guy who was considering it -it pencils out because it was going to cost him 35K to get power lines to his house anyways. During the life of the system he will still have to put away 5 or so cents a KWH to cover maintenance costs, battery replacement, etc.

Agreed. It probably wouldn't make economic sense to go off grid if power was available at the building site, but since I would have to pay a large cost up front as well as continually escallating electric bills over the upcoming years, solar is looking better all the time.

 

[Teken]

Agreed. It probably wouldn't make economic sense to go off grid if power was available at the building site, but since I would have to pay a large cost up front as well as continually escallating electric bills over the upcoming years, solar is looking better all the time.

I agree costs will continue to rise and having solar for primary power, or as a secondary source of power in case of a power loss is a win win situation.

I just have to shake my head at the prices though . . . When it was 1980 you know what I could see prices in the 30-70K range.

But, common man . . . Its 2010 right now there is no reason for this old tech to be so freaking expansive!

None . . . My views are this segment is so small and those who make the panels etc simply have a monopoly on it so its pure profit when it comes time to purchase high quality solar cells like Kyrocera, Samsung, etc

This is where I seriously would not mind the Chinese to come into the market and show the world how this could be made in bulk and force the other makers to compete on price . . .

I am really hoping to see this nano tech grow and force the other players to look at their pricing . . .

I guess I better hope for the best in those GIC, Bonds, And stock shares to do well in the next 15 years . . .

This will be a long haul for sure . . .

 

[hillbilly1]

........This is where I seriously would not mind the Chinese to come into the market and show the world how this could be made in bulk and force the other makers to compete on price . . .

They are already making the wind turbines cheaper, the US gov had to change their regs so only american turbines could be used on the gov funded wind farms.

 

[jkeyser14]

I agree costs will continue to rise and having solar for primary power, or as a secondary source of power in case of a power loss is a win win situation.

I just have to shake my head at the prices though . . . When it was 1980 you know what I could see prices in the 30-70K range.

But, common man . . . Its 2010 right now there is no reason for this old tech to be so freaking expansive!

None . . . My views are this segment is so small and those who make the panels etc simply have a monopoly on it so its pure profit when it comes time to purchase high quality solar cells like Kyrocera, Samsung, etc

This is where I seriously would not mind the Chinese to come into the market and show the world how this could be made in bulk and force the other makers to compete on price . . .

I am really hoping to see this nano tech grow and force the other players to look at their pricing . . .

I guess I better hope for the best in those GIC, Bonds, And stock shares to do well in the next 15 years . . .

This will be a long haul for sure . . .

The Chinese have been in the market for years. BP used to have a solar manufacturing facility here in Maryland. They put BP's solar division out of the manufacturing business since they undercut them by so much. BP still does design work for large installations however. Most of the cost is not in the panels, it's in the installation cost.

 

[Falcon67]

Agreed. It probably wouldn't make economic sense to go off grid if power was available at the building site, but since I would have to pay a large cost up front as well as continually escallating electric bills over the upcoming years, solar is looking better all the time.

Yes - should have added that the payback is why this thing might well die if not for the subsidies. Without trying to be too political, I'd rather have the renewable subsidy spending than some of the things we (gubbermint) spent money on here recently.

I wish I could find the link to the company that is starting to produce the self contained cells that can be daisy chained.

 

[ddawg16]

I agree with the above points as well....

But I would like to point out that the home solar technology will most likely follow the same economic models as other bleeding edge technology.

Take for example satellite systems....20 years ago you were spending thousands of dollars, had a 8' dish in your yard and it took an experienced installer/engineer to install it. Now, they are basically giving away the satellite recievers that are a fration of the size and most guys can install them themselves.

Look at that flat panel TV on your wall.....how much did that size TV cost just 10 years ago?

Mass production and technology advances will bring the price down.

I figure that in about 20 years, the average house will have a J-box in the attic connected to the load center....and there will be a spot on the wall next to the meter to hold an inverter. The average home owner will be able to Best Buy and buy solar system parts much the same way he buys computer parts.

But for all that to happen....we have to start somewhere....

 

[Falcon67]

The biggest tech hurdle, as I recall anyway, with current solar is that the cell yield is very low with all current manufacturing techniques. There are some experimental advances that may help but those (like the film printing of cells) is still a bit off. But yes - when (not if I am sure! ) we get there, prices will fall like rocks. I think the film printing would be the cats meow if it can get into high production.

 

[jmauld]

my big peeve with solar, is without any subsidy it doesnt pencil out financially. You basically end up with taxpayers subsidizing people's electric bills. That money should be going to infrastructure, not to individuals (i see it as an illegal gift of public funds).

In a way this is building infrastructure. It's taking some load off of the power company's generators, which allows them to feed that power elsewhere.

Thinking about it another way will piss you off more. Your tax dollars aren't just paying for other people's electric bills, you're paying for the generation of electrical power that the power company is going to turn around and sell back to you.

 

[Falcon67]

Thinking about it another way will piss you off more. Your tax dollars aren't just paying for other people's electric bills, you're paying for the generation of electrical power that the power company is going to turn around and sell back to you.

As long as they pay me the going rate, we should be even.

 

[Teken]

I think the film printing would be the cats meow if it can get into high production.

Yup this is the nano tech that is being deployed right now. Now, that is my original question regarding the pricing about this new tech.

The marketing advantages as it was stated on what I have seen is:

1. High speed manufacturing

2. Lower costs

3. Higher efficiency

4. Lighter and flexible

5. Endless lengths can be printed.

So once again how come (number 2) does not reflect this tech being used world wide and driving down the price for the average Joe?

 

[gatchel]

My guess, supply and demand...

Nanosolar has sold out production from their California plant for like 2 to 3 years or something crazy like that.

 

[Teken]

My guess, supply and demand...

Nanosolar has sold out production from their California plant for like 2 to 3 years or something crazy like that.

I don't follow: Are you saying they are doing so well they have sold all their future production which covers a 2-3 year period?

If so, where the frack is the cost savings going??

 

[PowerDubs]

Bump for any updates.

My backyard is a large open area, sloping south east. I've thought about ground mounting a bunch of panels myself and adding to it as time goes by. I've 2 electricians in the family circle to assist.


- Josh

 

[Teken]

Bump for any updates.

My backyard is a large open area, sloping south east. I've thought about ground mounting a bunch of panels myself and adding to it as time goes by. I've 2 electricians in the family circle to assist.


- Josh

Josh,

Thanks for the bump. It was a great read again! Let us know what your plans are for this solar farm?

Teken . . .

 

[K13]

I don't follow: Are you saying they are doing so well they have sold all their future production which covers a 2-3 year period?

If so, where the frack is the cost savings going??

You think a company that has orders for 3 years of production is going to lower their prices??

 

[Teken]

You think a company that has orders for 3 years of production is going to lower their prices??

I know its a pipe dream but one can ask!

Teken . . .