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soldered conections on ac wiring

Drew_flux

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I have a question. whilst helping a buddy on the weekend put is some network cables, i noticed most if not all of the wiring was connected with jam nuts or other clamp type connectors. why is the wiring not soldered ? Is it a heat issue- remelting the solder? i ask because alternators/generators/transformers have solder inside. google was no help, it could only give a split opinion.
 
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StaggeringGoat

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Most likely, it's because it's quicker to twist the wires together than solder them. I don't know what the code says but it may even prohibit solder in places like that. It doesn't have anything to do with voltage or AC current.
 

nehog

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AFAIK, soldering is not accepted because many 'electricians' don't know how to properly solder, don't use the correct solder.

The old wives tail of "solder will melt on the hot wires" is BS, if the wire is hot enough to melt the solder, the insulation is already burning, any wood contacted by the cable is on fire, and the melted solder is not going to be even a slight issue in the game. In fact, if the solder melted, and the circuit opened, it might in fact be a simple fuse, but that's not realistic. What is realistic is that people take plumbing soldering supplies and try to do electrical work with them, and that's not good.
 

trainer

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i have to disagree with Nehog.

If the wire isnt hot enough to melt the solder, then you will have a cold connection. Solder is always applied to the connection and not the soldering iron tip.

If you are melting the insulation, then you have a problem with technique or you are using too large diameter solder.
 

larry_g

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i have to disagree with Nehog.

If the wire isnt hot enough to melt the solder, then you will have a cold connection. Solder is always applied to the connection and not the soldering iron tip.

If you are melting the insulation, then you have a problem with technique or you are using too large diameter solder.

I think you missed nehog's point. People are concerned that the solder will fail in operation sometime after the joint is made becaust the current in the wire will make the wire hot and melt the solder allowing the connection to fail.

lg
no neat sig line
 

TWX

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From a technical perspective, trainer is probably most correct, in that when one solders, one is applying the solder on to the work to melt it in, not on to the iron. The iron's job is to heat up the work, in this case the wire. Wire conducts heat extraordinarily well, so a whole lot of heat from that iron is transmitted down the wire and against the insulation, and if the insulation couldn't handle it then the entire process would be worthless.

On the other hand, for Nehog's benefit, the temperatures needed to remelt solder are so high that he is correct in that something is seriously wrong if it's getting hot enough to melt solder, and the chances of a fire somewhere along the line are too high.

Think about it this way- which can handle higher heat, the solder connection, or the plastic screw-on connector?

Soldered connections would be excellent, and a complete pain in the **** to change. That's probably why we use screw-on connectors instead.
 

mrb

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in the NEC solder is prohibited as the method of connecting the EGC. During a fault condition the soldered connection can melt or blow apart before the fault clears leaving the ground fault energized and no ground path.
 

GoodoleBoy

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I would say because without a wire nut or crimp connector it would be uninsulated and cause a risk of shock..Just a guess.
 

rlitman

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Soldered joints on solid copper wire are ok, but you still need a wire nut or other connector, since soldering is not considered a "mechanical connection" in the code.
Some of the original wiring in my house from 1929 is with cloth insulated BX cable, where the wires were twisted, soldered, then held together with ceramic wire nuts, and then taped (with cloth tape). It's perfectly fine, although I've been replacing it as I encounter it.

Soldering stranded wires which should be crimped (when they're subject to vibration or stress) is a no-no. It wicks up between the strands, which stiffens the wire, which puts more stress on the joint. Left unsoldered, a crimp allows for more flexibility, and properly crimped, the joint will be too tight to allow for oxidation.

As for whether a "plastic" screw on connection can handle as much heat as solder:
I have seen all plastic wire nuts with plastic threads inside. I NEVER use them. Total garbage. Real ones have a special metal spring inside. As you tighten it, the sharp "threads" facing inward bite into the wires, holding it tightly in place, and the spring maintains compression on the connection.
 
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mrb

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wire should never be soldered under a mechanical connection (solder then crimp, solder then put under screw, solder then put under wirenut) the solder cold flows under pressure and results in a loose connection.

bottom line is solder has no place in line voltage AC wiring.
 

Charles (in GA)

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wire should never be soldered under a mechanical connection (solder then crimp, solder then put under screw, solder then put under wirenut) the solder cold flows under pressure and results in a loose connection.

bottom line is solder has no place in line voltage AC wiring.


Why does Mercedes do it then?

I don't think Mercedes does wiring for buildings.

Charles
 

StaggeringGoat

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bottom line is solder has no place in line voltage AC wiring.

I don't think the voltage has anything to do with it. It's the application where the wire is used. In buildings of course solder isn't used. Lot's of other "line voltage" applications do use solder. (inside appliances, etc)
 
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mrb

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I don't think the voltage has anything to do with it. It's the application where the wire is used. In buildings of course solder isn't used. Lot's of other "line voltage" applications do use solder. (inside appliances, etc)

when i said line voltage i meant 'building wiring'. should have said line voltage building wiring. thanks for clearing that up.
 

foolishpride

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I've soldered lugs onto 1250 MCM, 15 KV cables. It's part of the installation procedure to terminate high voltage cables using G&W Electric's pothead terminations.
 

MrMark

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I don't think Mercedes does wiring for buildings.

Charles

Nice. The statement I was addressing was in no way shape or form limited to houses, buildings, AC, line voltage, or lasers from outer space. The statement was that soldering has no place under a mechanical connection - period. Mercedes solders under some of their mechanical connections. There's obviously nothing wrong with soldering to them.
 
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Drew_flux

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hmmm guess it was one of those subjects. today i was working on a hybrid toyota, its a/c feed cables were crimped only.its one of a few ac appilications that you will come across in the auto world. have seen ac heated windscreens that had soldered leads though.

the point about not being able to flex the wire after soldering,still has me confused. why does your house wiring have to flex?
 

StaggeringGoat

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Mercedes solders under some of their mechanical connections. There's obviously nothing wrong with soldering to them.

You need to make sure you make the mechanical connection first, then solder, not the other way around. Obviously you couldn't do that with a wire nut. If you ask about solder vs crimping on a boating forum it's like asking Chevy vs Ford.

For my non building wiring, I do often use mechanical crimp connections followed by solder.
 

MrMark

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good point. That's what I would do too. Crimp then solder and then cover with heat shrink with the glue.
 

nehog

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i have to disagree with Nehog.

If the wire isnt hot enough to melt the solder, then you will have a cold connection. Solder is always applied to the connection and not the soldering iron tip.

If you are melting the insulation, then you have a problem with technique or you are using too large diameter solder.

In operation, not fabrication!

A properly soldered connection requires a fair amount of work, skill, training, etc. A small amount of solder and flux is applied to the tip of the soldering tool (to facilitate heat transfer) , and the main solder is applied to the joint.

Any soldered joint must be mechanically secure by a means other than solder.

Insulation must be appropriate for the circuit.

Though there are claims that solder and stranded wire are not compatible, this is only true in high vibration/motion environments such as harnesses to moving equipment. For static wires such as in a building, this is not an issue.

And again, a properly performed soldered splice is more secure than a wire that is not spliced. The soldered joint will fail after the wire itself fails.

But since soldering is not typically allowed per code, the 'correct' answer is don't do it... :thumbup:
 

mrb

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Nice. The statement I was addressing was in no way shape or form limited to houses, buildings, AC, line voltage, or lasers from outer space. The statement was that soldering has no place under a mechanical connection - period. Mercedes solders under some of their mechanical connections. There's obviously nothing wrong with soldering to them.


my laser from outer space has the wires glued together with metallic epoxy. This thing was very expensive and obviously designed by top scientists that know everything about everything. Im going to go through my house and take out all these inferior wire nuts and redo the connections with metallic epoxy.
 

rodm1

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in the NEC solder is prohibited as the method of connecting the EGC. During a fault condition the soldered connection can melt or blow apart before the fault clears leaving the ground fault energized and no ground path.

I agree.:thumbup:
 

MrMark

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my laser from outer space has the wires glued together with metallic epoxy. This thing was very expensive and obviously designed by top scientists that know everything about everything. Im going to go through my house and take out all these inferior wire nuts and redo the connections with metallic epoxy.

I knew you had a sense of humor!
 

nehog

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in the NEC solder is prohibited as the method of connecting the EGC. During a fault condition the soldered connection can melt or blow apart before the fault clears leaving the ground fault energized and no ground path.

I took the time to look this one up, something seemed not quite right there, and so...

Soldering is permitted on the EGC as long as there is a proper mechanical/electrical connection first. Generally that mechanical/electrical connection can be done with twisting.

However, IMHO (worthless, I know) that rule applies to ALL conductors that are soldered.

There are also specific rules regarding insulation of the soldered splice, too...
 

mrb

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I took the time to look this one up, something seemed not quite right there, and so...

Soldering is permitted on the EGC as long as there is a proper mechanical/electrical connection first. Generally that mechanical/electrical connection can be done with twisting.

However, IMHO (worthless, I know) that rule applies to ALL conductors that are soldered.

There are also specific rules regarding insulation of the soldered splice, too...


thats why i said prohibited as the method of connecting. You can put solder on the joint after you connect the wires, but you cant connect them with solder.
 

tcianci

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Not to mention that the degree of predicted reliability is much greater with the mechanical connector, the ease of servicability is much higher and the speed of installation and safety of not having to do "hot work" make the mechanical connectors they way to go for residential wiring. UL can rate the performance of a wire nut but how can they rate the performance of a field performed solder job? Soldering the wiring in a residential job is simply not done any more. Many years ago, as was posted, the wires were twisted, soldered and taped. Then wire nuts became the standard for obvious reasons, today we see "backstapping" connections for outlets and switches which require no screws or additional connectors. Now a lot of recessed ceiling fixtures have pre-installed connectors that the Romex pushes into, again, no screws or external connectors. Lets not get into the backstabbing argument...I have my doubts that they're the best thing too but I'm just pointing out that wire connections made in the field are an evolutionalry thing... all designed to reduce time and maintain solid connections. No doubt there will be more changes coming to wire connections in the future...think of how punch down, insulation displacement connections revolutionized telecom wiring.
 

nehog

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thats why i said prohibited as the method of connecting. You can put solder on the joint after you connect the wires, but you cant connect them with solder.

Again it seems we agree. Simply stated it is not appropriate to connect any electrical wires with solder (only). Them must be mechanically and electrically connected prior to soldering.

:thumbup:
 
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