Solid or stranded...which is best?

[lowrider2]

I'm building a shop/hanger (50'x80') with half shop and half hanger. Shop will have lots of recepts (20 amp), welders (3 -2 MIG, 1 TIG) (30 amp), compressors 2 at 30 amps, car lift (30 amps), LED's overhead in the shop and maybe T8's in the hanger. Some outside lighting, shop with hydronics heated by electric water heater and probably AC and maybe other stuff. Planning on 200 amp panel.

Oh yeah...also building a new house about 1800 SF that will be all electric too with 125 amp panel.

I'm looking at the advantages of THHN vs Romex and probably buying in bulk. It sure looks like romex is cheaper (maybe) and easier for most things since there is no need for conduit....Yes/no?

If THHN, what is the advantage of stranded vs solid conductor?

Service will be buried alum in conduit (SER) from transformer both to the shop and house. House and shop are 130' apart with transformer in the middle (kinda).

Any thoughts here folks? Haven't bought anything yet...still thinking.

 

[Norcal]

SER cable cannot be buried. As to the advantages of solid or stranded, solid is cheaper, nicer to make up a panel, but solid is easier to work with, when making up boxes, and switches and receptacles if the proper devices are used.

 

[sberry]

I don't stock single solid. I don't care if its super neat in the panel.

 

[walrus]

I don't under stand people's obsession with a "neat" panel which from what I've seen means 90 degree bends into the breaker or into neutral bar. Once the cover is on what difference does it make? BTW, I wouldn't use solid in a conduit, ever

 

[Stuart in MN]

It's more personal preference than anything else. I'd use stranded for #10 or bigger, either one for #12 or #14.

 

[Dagny]

If you put conduit underground use xhhw. Also 65 feet isn't that far put a 200 amp in the house

 

[theoldwizard1]

As far as cost goes, you have to add the cost of conduit and the labor to install it if you want to go stranded. Those 2 usually make Romex win out especially if you can buy it in LARGE spools.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I don't under stand people's obsession with a "neat" panel which from what I've seen means 90 degree bends into the breaker or into neutral bar. Once the cover is on what difference does it make?

It doesn't until the next time the cover comes off !

 

[theoldwizard1]

Oh yeah...also building a new house about 1800 SF that will be all electric too with 125 amp panel.

125 amps sounds light for an "all electric" house. If you have requirements for both heat and A/C hope you are planning on a heat pump.

FYI, propane is more cost effective for any "heating" application (hot water, cooking, clothes drying, etc.)

 

[lowrider2]

So if no SER buried, what type of AL should I use in PVC conduit?

 

[lowrider2]

Propane is cheap when it's a buck twenty five a gal. A couple years ago it was $4.25 here and higher in other areas. Our river produced electric is pretty cheap and constant priced here in Northern Idaho.

 

[matt_i]

The nice thing about conduit, surface mounted, is that its easily changed at any time down the road.

NM wires buried in walls, much higher work-penalty to make changes later on.

I don't mind lights and basic outlets buried in the walls, but I could change my shop's layout at any time depending on how it evolves (what projects, what machines, what processes, etc) and I like the flexibility to do that, so anything 240vac is conduit for me.

I solved some of the problems by putting a 2" trunk line in the unfinished attic, then I can install "T"s wherever needed to run new circuits (sometimes have to roll wires back to cut in a new one). But the various circuits pierce down thru the drywall to basically just be a vertical conduit leg coming down to a box.

 

[Dagny]

xhhw

 

[Dagny]

So if no SER buried, what type of AL should I use in PVC conduit?

sorry xhhw

 

[Rrumbler]

I don't under stand people's obsession with a "neat" panel which from what I've seen means 90 degree bends into the breaker or into neutral bar. Once the cover is on what difference does it make? BTW, I wouldn't use solid in a conduit, ever

Maybe no difference, until someone has to try to sort out a problem and untangle the rats nest - pride of workmanship, attention to detail, ease of future maintenance. I see a panel that looks like a nest of snakes, I immediately start looking for extra problems. Do it right, do it once, and take pride and satisfaction in a job well done.

 

[lowrider2]

My Dad was a Master Plumber and he would kick my **** if I wasn't neat running pipe...suppose the same applies to wire. Neat always looks better anyway.

In shops of the past I have always used surface conduit for changes and would leave the unchanged parts in the wall or abandon them. It certainly makes sense to use the conduit if you know things might change at some point but I usually don't think that far ahead...change is sometimes painful.

Plan is to run 12/2 for the ceiling stuff and to the individual lights and ceiling fans that will be switched separately. Bank LED's that will have only one switch will be 14/2. Does that make sense?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I don't under stand people's obsession with a "neat" panel which from what I've seen means 90 degree bends into the breaker or into neutral bar. Once the cover is on what difference does it make? BTW, I wouldn't use solid in a conduit, ever

Its called taking pride in your work,And everytime somebody opens that panel its on display.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

It doesn't until the next time the cover comes off !

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Maybe no difference, until someone has to try to sort out a problem and untangle the rats nest - pride of workmanship, attention to detail, ease of future maintenance. I see a panel that looks like a nest of snakes, I immediately start looking for extra problems. Do it right, do it once, and take pride and satisfaction in a job well done.

 

[lowrider2]

Is XHHW the same as RHW?

Would 4/0 be the right size for 200 amp service?

 

[Wes J]

I've seen issues with solid wire breaking in flex conduit (or even rigid) in equipment with any kind of vibration. Unless you are building a city block and someone is watching every line on the expense report, there is no down side to stranded.

 

[walrus]

Maybe no difference, until someone has to try to sort out a problem and untangle the rats nest - pride of workmanship, attention to detail, ease of future maintenance. I see a panel that looks like a nest of snakes, I immediately start looking for extra problems. Do it right, do it once, and take pride and satisfaction in a job well done.

So if I use stranded wire in a panel and it's not bent at a 90 degree going into the breaker it's a rats nest? How is it any safer? Do the electrons flow thru that perfectly bent wire better. I've seen panels where guys have bundled all the wires together with wire ties. I guess it looked better but is it safer? Should the guy have derated?

 

[Stuart in MN]

I've seen issues with solid wire breaking in flex conduit (or even rigid) in equipment with any kind of vibration. Unless you are building a city block and someone is watching every line on the expense report, there is no down side to stranded.

Certainly, you don't want to use solid wire in an application where there's moving equipment or vibration. However, that's a pretty rare occurrence in general residential wiring.

 

[Stuff]

If you do use tie wraps please use the right tool to cut the ends off flush. Those things are sharp and I have had them draw blood a few times.

I find that solid THHN is a bit better for pushing through conduit. Also easier for twisting around a screw terminal and other connectors like wagos.

 

[bob_mp]

What I did is pretty flexible; it's been really handy when moving tools around.

I installed 12" junction boxes in the walls that stick out beyond the sheetrock. Behind the sheetrock, I ran conduit from the junction boxes to 4 11/16" boxes for the outlets. I put boxes for outlets in (approximately) every other stud bay.

I connected the J-boxes with 5 runs of 1" EMT, which sit outside of the sheetrock. The foundation is 6" wide so it sticks out a bit beyond the J-boxes and the conduit. I similarly flush mounted the breaker panels (one single phase, one 3 phase) and ran a bunch of conduit, behind the sheetrock, from the panels down to J-boxes just below the panels. Bridgeport makes slick "Slip" style couplings that make it easy to install the conduit once the J-boxes have been mounted.

I ran stranded THHN.

Here's a pic:

Cheers,
Bob

 

[theoldwizard1]

Propane is cheap when it's a buck twenty five a gal. A couple years ago it was $4.25 here and higher in other areas. Our river produced electric is pretty cheap and constant priced here in Northern Idaho.

Well, if you have a cheap, stable source of electricity, then go with it. I still would use a heat pump.

I don't know what propane is selling for today, especially in your area, but I expect prices will remain well below the high price you quoted, and will not fluctuate much for the next 10+ years.

 

[sberry]

I could take out half the circuits I put in.

 

[lowrider2]

Well, if you have a cheap, stable source of electricity, then go with it. I still would use a heat pump.

I don't know what propane is selling for today, especially in your area, but I expect prices will remain well below the high price you quoted, and will not fluctuate much for the next 10+ years.

Heat pump for sure!

Has anyone had any experience with the heat pump water heaters? The newer high SEER heat pumps are wonderful but I was wondering how the water heaters are doing in the field.