Some advice on wiring the garage.

[hudsoncustom]

Building a new garage. It is nearly finished.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4525
I am hoping to wire it this week and over the weekend.

I have a couple of questions.

My house has 60 amp fuse service, and I would rather not have to upgrade the house service if I do not have to.

I would like to put either 100 or 125 amp service out in the garage. I called the electric company and found out that getting a second meter on the garage (completely separate service) is not an option. They would have to run lines over the house, which they are unwilling to do.

I've been thinking I might be able to upgrade the meter base on the house to a 200 amp unit, and then run a long feeder from the meter base to a separate fuse box in the garage. That way, I wouldn't have to mess with upgrading the fuse service in the house. Is this doable? I have never had a meter base apart, but I imagine I would just need to connect the feeder to the house panel and the feeder to the garage panel to the same poles?

If I am able to go that route, I would run some heavy romex through the attic in my house, out the backside of the home in conduit, through a 12 foot long trench, up the side of the garage in conduit, and into the fuse box. Does this sound right?

Would I need to install a separate ground for the panel in the garage?

I did spend some time at the library recently and poured over the code book. I figure every outlet in the garage needs to be GFCI protected because of the potential for moisture. If I wire a GFCI outlet as the first in the series, then the following outlets on that line would also be gfci protected, right?

Thanks!

 

[bobbyd]

I would almost bet that any work done to the meter will have to be done by a certified electrician. AHJ's and electric companies generally will not let consumers install or alter them.

That being said, call a couple of local electricians and have them come out and give you an estimate for what you're wanting to do (one will have to do the meter work anyway). Most will do so for free. During the estimate, quiz them about the best way to get the power to your shop. Even if you do everything but the meter work yourself, you'll know how they would have done it. Once you have a plan developed, call the local inspector (if there is one) and review the plan to make sure there won't be problems later on.

You are correct on the GFCI's in the garage.

 

[katit]

Hmm.. I put regular outlets in garage...
What about 220? Are they have to be GFCI also?

 

[bobbyd]

Just the first outlet in each circuit has to be GFCI to protect all of them. Most garages only have one receptacle circuit so it would only take one. Most of our (garage junkies) garages are not typical however and may require several (or a dozen in some of our cases). In any case, it's a good idea.

I've never seen a GFCI 220V receptacle and I don't think it's a requirement. If it is, it would probably have to be a GFCI circuit breaker ($$$). Someone with more knowledge of the NEC will have to weigh in on this one.

 

[katit]

Most of our (garage junkies) garages are not typical however and may require several (or a dozen in some of our cases).

Thats my concern.. I have 5 plugs and they all on separate brakers.
I have 100A subpanel in garage. Electrician did everything, I just installed wrong outlets

 

[Stuart in MN]

GFCI protection is required only for the 120vac receptacles. As far as the original question goes, running a separate feed from the meter to the garage may work but there are so many variables (local building codes, local electrical utility requirements) it's difficult to provide any solid advice from here. Your best bet will be to talk to a local electrician. If you do upgrade, you'll need a new service drop from the utility pole, as well as a new meter and socket.

Depending on what you're going to be doing in the garage, even though it would be nice to have you may not need to install a giant electric service...if you aren't running big welders and air compressors around the clock, chances are the main electrical loads will be the lights, and whatever power tool you happen to have in your hands at the moment.

 

[bobbyd]

Thats my concern.. I have 5 plugs and they all on separate brakers.

Should still be less than a $20 investment to make good (and safe). ***** though since regular receptacles are what...$0.79 and GFCI's are over $3.

 

[katit]

***** because I think mine is not cheap. Some industrial 20A and they were >$2 for sure.

Face plates will have to be for square also.

Not big deal, just annoying...


Also, I think GFCI outlets run at $10+ ea
Browsing options/pricing - don't see any 20A GFCI
What is 15A/20A pass through? How do they work?
May have to buy different breakers with built-in GFCI procetcion. They are like $30/ea

 

[DIGGER_DAVE]

***** because I think mine is not cheap.

Some industrial 20A (recepticals)

Are you sure they are 20 AMP rated recepticals?
20 AMP ones aren't normally used for 110/120 Volt AC service.

I use HEAVY DUTY recepticals (less prone to the plastic breaking around the pin openings) but they aren't RATED for 20 AMPS.
But ... I learn new things every day!

 

[OldCarGuy]

Your house must not have air conditioning and or many energy-draining appliances to get away with a 60 Amp service. I would re-consider upgrading the house service to a 200 Amp and feed the garage off a 100 Amp breaker from a new panel.

Both the illuminating company and the county building department allowed me to do all the wiring as a homeowner. However since I’m not a licensed electrician, I had to pass a county code test. No one can tell me what I can or cannot do,, so I purchased a NEC book, studied it and passed.

I installed a remote 400Amp meter base that I fed two 200 Amp load centers off. That feed four 100 Amp sub panels. Boy I’m sure glad that I finished all the wiring by the end of last year. Copper prices have gone through the roof. Although Aluminum wire is the norm for power feeds, I always use copper run in conduit from the electric company’s transformer on.

Make sure you purchase 20Amp GFCI and outlets. The 20 Amp outlets may cost four times as much as a 15 Amp; but they hold onto plugs far better.

 

[katit]

I think 20A is pretty common for circuit line.
I have appropriate 20A brakers and wire gage.

They are not "industrial" but 20A rated and more expensive.

Prices previous poster stated from like 20 years ago
I don't see any GFCI outlet for <$15 unless it's eBay
They are 15A/20A pass through.

Siemens (my panel brand) 20A GFCI breakers run for ~$30 each...

 

[100mph WHEELSPINNER]

I was in the same boat just a while back. I found that if I ran a new service to the shop and disconneced my old one to the house the new sevice came with a credit from the power company so their end of the deal didnt cost me anything. I went with a 400 amp metor base and just ran 200 to the house and 200 to the shop. I had to run a disconnect on the outside of the house but wasn't a big deal.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Indeed talk to an electrician or two, they will know the codes in your area.

MOST, but not all locals (AHJ) will require a disconnect outside, for what you want, that means two, one for the house, and one for the garage. Problem comes in that when you do that, they will require the 60 amp three wire feed from the old meter base to be upgraded to their current minimum for residential (probably 150 amp or more) and it will have to be four wire past the disconnect, so there you go putting in a new house panelboard. I'll bet there is not much way out of that and for many reasons you probably should consider upgrading anyhow, one of which is safety.

Again, look to a good electrician for all possible alternatives.

One other suggestion, can the power company not go arount the house with power to the garage? either underground, or by placing a pole off to the side. Might cost you more, but could save you in the end.

Charles

 

[bobbyd]

Prices previous poster stated from like 20 years ago
I don't see any GFCI outlet for <$15 unless it's eBay

You need to shop around more. Here are standard 15A receptacles for $0.37 a piece (1/2 my estimate).

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=72603-334-270V-L&lpage=none

I was a little light on the GFCI's, I found them for around $6 a piece for 15A. More than $3, but not $15 either. Sorry, I bought mine 5 years ago and I did say more than $3.

http://www.electrical-supply.net/product.asp_Q_parentID_E_8_A_subCatID_E_298_A_prodID_E_1203

Here's 20A GFCI's for $7

http://www.electrical-supply.net/product.asp_Q_parentID_E_8_A_subCatID_E_299_A_prodID_E_1313

 

[katit]

My bad. I found cheap ones at Harbor Freight

 

[Charles (in GA)]

***** because I think mine is not cheap. Some industrial 20A and they were >$2 for sure.

Face plates will have to be for square also.

Not big deal, just annoying...


Also, I think GFCI outlets run at $10+ ea
Browsing options/pricing - don't see any 20A GFCI
What is 15A/20A pass through? How do they work?
May have to buy different breakers with built-in GFCI procetcion. They are like $30/ea

Look around, Lowes and Home Depot both have Cooper or Leviton GFCI outlets in both 15 amp (standard household type plugs) and 20amp (which you will never need). and all 15 amp rated GFCIs I've seen are 20 amp pass thru. This means that the receptacle is rated at 15 amps due to the design of the plug/receptacle per NEMA, but the GFCI circuit portion is capable of handling a full 20 amp load from downstream outlets.

Please don't buy the cheap stuff. If you pay eighty-nine cents for an outlet, you get nothing. If you buy a good quality receptacle with backwiring that is connected with a screw and serrated plate inside the receptacle, you will pay around $3 and get something with good tight connections when you plug in something. Most good quality 15 amp receptacles actually have the guts from a 20 amp receptacle with a 15 amp faceplate on it. Look thru the slots and you will see what I mean.

Charles

 

[hudsoncustom]

Thanks for the advice. I was able to contact an electrician friend of mine who will come by and help me figure out what I need for the area.

 

[hudsoncustom]

Ok, so an update here.

I have 100 amp service in the house. I'll be upgrading the meter base to a 200 amp unit. I was thinking of getting a 200 amp meter base with 2 100 breakers all in one unit if they make such a thing. Then I can run the service to the house subpanel off of a 100 amp breaker and the service to the garage off of the other 100 amp breaker. If I am able to go this route, I would need a separate ground for each building (subpanel) right?

Am I right in figuring that I need no.1 aluminum wire to support a 120' 100amp feeder line?

 

[krautracer]

Hi I'm new here.
I'm an electrician here in Michigan. More than likely you will have to upgrade your home service. They wont let you run 2 set of wires out of a meter socket. As for GFCI's I believe you will need only need them only if you don't finish the garage. If you do need them you will only need one per circuit. You'll feed the GFCI on the line side then come out of the load side to feed the rest of the recepts on that circuit.
As for 15 or 20 amp recepts go with 20. Why because when you wire it you will more that likely run 12/2 romex. Because you will put in 20 amp breakers in the panel. So that you can run your air compressor, welder, grinders, and other high amperage items.
If you have any questions you can e-mail me at [email protected]

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Hi I'm new here.
I'm an electrician here in Michigan. More than likely you will have to upgrade your home service. They wont let you run 2 set of wires out of a meter socket.

Commonly done here. Many houses have two panels now, they install a single meter socket and on either side of it are disconnects, the meter socket feeding both of the disconnects, and each disconnect feeding a panel in the house (or one in the house, one in the outbuilding)

You have to use a meter socket designed for two outputs.

Charles

 

[DIGGER_DAVE]

Look around, Lowes and Home Depot both have Cooper or Leviton GFCI outlets in both ..

..15 amp (standard household type plugs) ..and 20amp (which you will never need)

. and all 15 amp rated GFCIs I've seen are 20 amp pass thru. This means that the receptacle is rated at 15 amps due to the design of the plug/receptacle per NEMA, but the GFCI circuit portion is capable of handling a full 20 amp load from downstream outlets.

Please don't buy the cheap stuff. If you pay eighty-nine cents for an outlet, you get nothing. If you buy a good quality receptacle with backwiring that is connected with a screw and serrated plate inside the receptacle, you will pay around $3 and get something with good tight connections when you plug in something. Most good quality 15 amp receptacles actually have the guts from a 20 amp receptacle with a 15 amp faceplate on it. Look thru the slots and you will see what I mean.

Charles

Ah ha ... NOW I understand what the discussion was/is about 20 AMP recepticals! ...

http://www.electrical-supply.net/product.asp_Q_parentID_E_8_A_subCatID_E_299_A_prodID_E_1313

These are COMBINATION 15/20 AMP recepticals. (parallel hot leg for 15 AMP in conjunction with the right angled hot leg for 20 AMP)

The Electrical Code here in my part of the woods does NOT permit the use of these.
15 AMP is the maximum. Normal gauge for hookup is #14 (aluminum wire is not permited) BUT for long runs (from breaker(s) to outlets; #12 is encouraged.

ALL my recepticals are protected for Ground Fault by the breakers in my panel. At the time the panel was wired; the Ground Fault breakers were more cost effective than individual recepticals.

So ... I now see what all of you were refering to.

A quick side bar - because of the "sky rocketing" price of copper wire; our local code writers are re-considering the use of aluminum wire.
Thieves have actually been stealing (digging up!!) buried copper wire from new sub-stations!!

 

[hudsoncustom]

Commonly done here. Many houses have two panels now, they install a single meter socket and on either side of it are disconnects, the meter socket feeding both of the disconnects, and each disconnect feeding a panel in the house (or one in the house, one in the outbuilding)

You have to use a meter socket designed for two outputs.

Charles

That's what I was hoping to find. I take it I can find something like this at an Electrical Supply house?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Here are receptacles like I was suggesting.

http://www.leviton.com/pdfs/switches/levspec.pdf

These are side wired or backwired, flat faced, but they also have the same basic unit with a standard recessed face.

If you peer thru the slots of the 15 amp units, NEMA 5-15R you will see that they have the same contacts and "innards" as used in the 20 amp NEMA 5-20R ones shown in the brochure. Same quality different face, about a dollar cheaper.

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Looked at Hubbell units as Grainger this afternoon. They seem to use a numbering system that mimics Levition. The 5262 is a very expensive outlet with brass parts and other expensive pieces, the 5252 is similar but much cheaper, more along the lines of what I was thinking about. The Hubbell also has the 20amp T shaped contacts inside of the 15 amp straight slot model, just like Levition and Cooper. These are very strong contacts that grip tightly and don't wear out.

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

That's what I was hoping to find. I take it I can find something like this at an Electrical Supply house?

Go to page 39 of 73 of this PDF file

http://www.milbankmfg.com/Products/Catalogs/CatalogFiles/PDF/Standard Products 08 97.pdf

GE sells a panel almost like this in Home Depot, Its made by someone else for GE and I think these folks make it. It has a 200 amp main breaker, and places to put eight full size breakers. You could use it and put two 100 amp breakers in it, one to feed the house and one to feed the shop. Then panel in the house and the shop become sub panels technically, and you really need four wire supplied to them and isolated neturals to be legal, that is my concern, your house is probably three wire to the panel and not isolated neturals, and you don't want the hassle of converting it. Depends on your code people.

Charles

 

[D-Cal]

Here in Alberta, GFCI is only required on outdoor recepticles. I fed my car plug-in GFCI first, then ran the load to all of the outdoor lights, just to be safe, although code doesn't require it. Inside the shop, regular sockets.

If you need GFCI coverage everywhere, could you not use a GFCI breaker in the sub-panel for that circuit and use regular sockets?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Here in Alberta, GFCI is only required on outdoor recepticles. I fed my car plug-in GFCI first, then ran the load to all of the outdoor lights, just to be safe, although code doesn't require it. Inside the shop, regular sockets.

If you need GFCI coverage everywhere, could you not use a GFCI breaker in the sub-panel for that circuit and use regular sockets?

True, you could. GFCI breakers are EXPENSIVE however, expecially in comparison to the GFCI receptacles. If you are wiring a circuit like house wiring is normally done, you can put a GFCI receptacle in the first outlet and feed the remainder off of that one. If you wire like a commerical wiring job where each receptacle is fed off the circuit with a pigtail from a wirenut splice, then using a GFCI receptacle would not work, the GFCI breaker would be the way to go.

Charles

 

[PAToyota]

Despite the added expense, I went with GFCI breakers for the simple reason that I know where they are and can tell someone easily. Depending how you lay things out, the GFCI receptacle may be behind the tool cabinet, boxes, whatever when it goes. Or you have to explain to where the GFCI receptacles are under the stairs, behind the air compressor, or wherever based on which run of outlets they blew... Anyone in my shop can go to the panel box and immediately tell what is blown.

Just something to think about.

 

[D-Cal]

PAToyota: I agree with your reasoning completely. For something as long-term as electrical wiring, saving a couple bucks just isn't worth it.