Some help pls - Insulate or not??

[vern1]

I am looking for some feedback on my garage plan (or lack thereof!!).

Some background:
- the garage is roughly 20x20 with the roof peak at about 12' - the level of the rafters across the garage is about 8' (pls excuse my terminology as I am sure most of it is incorrect given my experience level)
- its a fully detached garage
- location Toronto
- usage: store my summer car there in the winter and work on it on the weekends (nothing major but this winter my plan is to swap out the suspension)
- use it probably 6-12 hrs a weekend, rarely during the week
- last winter i heated it with a 100,000 btu propane bullet heater (door ajar) then tried to maintain it with a 4800W electrical heater; usually show up and fire up the propane then head to the hardware store and its warm when i am back

The heating method worked ok but noisy as hell when the propane was running and if it was cold (-10C) then the propane would have to be fired up at least every hour for a while

These pics were taken last fall. i have since drywalled the one side that had existing kraft batts on it (the window side). I have also lit the place with about 8 flourescent lights hung from the upper roof rafters. Also put in a 240v circuit for the heater. Put some shelving along the back wall, installed the bench and vise and put up some girlie calendars (of course)

The objective is to make it comfortable for working and to finish off the interior so that it maybe adds some to the resale value (I expect to have this place for at least 5 years. Its a rental, rented to my sister in law with a condition that i have full access to the garage)

I am in the process of getting organized to drywall the other side and have some questions for all of you way more experienced than me (i have read a bunch of threads on similar issues).

- i am going to drywall the other side of the garage regardless of whether i insulate or not
- the cost for the insulation is roughly $130 (19x8 wall so 3 bags of batts) so my inclination is to just do it (although having tough time finding kraft faced batts but i am sure they are available somewhere - otherwise would run vapour barrier over the no faced batts)
- however just having 2 walls with some insulation would have limited value unless i then proceeded to insulate the rest of the back walls and ceiling, no? (pls note there is a small back room accessed through that opening where i store tires, tools etc) - total cost of all insulation is roughly $600 i figure
- i probably use a 20# propane tank every weekend or 2 plus whatever elec i use

If i insulate,
- how would i do the non window wall? the studs are at various widths (old garage) anywhere from 12" to 46". The wood on the walls is fairly beat up and the outside is covered in siding to prevent any further rot (roof is metal). - Should I put additional 2x4's between those wide spaces. The insulation will not wedge between studs 46" apart...
- how would i do the ceiling? as you can see the roof is supported off the steel ibeam. Inelegant but effective I guess. I dont really want to have to redo the supports - do i put drywall under those horizontal 2x4 supports and then lay batts above this? Or should I insulate the upper roof rafters right along the roof line?
- either way this is not going to end up pretty but thats not a real concern of mine
- is any of this worth it or should I just drywall the other wall and be done with it? I probably will not drywall the back area unless i go the insulation route

I am sure there's no right or wrong answer but am interested in your views/thoughts

Sorry for the long thread but tried to get in all relevant info

Many thanks

 

[Lugnut30]

I'll throw in my first two cents - I am in Minnesota, so I feel your temperature pains, etc. For the money, it is much more wise to spend cash insulating the ceiling, as that is where a majority of your heat loss will be. If you only insulate the walls, or some of the walls, your heat retention will be poor and ultimately you will not be happy. I could go on, but I would just start saying stuff that spends your money.

 

[NUTTSGT]

One thing I repeat over and over about insulation, it's an investment that will pay for itself time and time again. Even when you do decide to sell the place (if you do) the next will probably appreciate it if he want's to do any work out there.

Since the studs are at various places along that wall, I would add studs every 16" and fill in the gaps with the appropriate insulation. If you plan on drywalling that wall, it's going to be needed done anyways.

The construction of that place looks to be quite the hack job and done on the cheap many years ago. Please tell me that those concrete blocks (beam sits on) are mortared together. Personally, I'm the overkill kind of guy, I'd fill up the cores on them just to make it more solid since they support the roof.

Next up, add some bracing under the bottom chord of the trusses and take out the stacked blocks. I'd replace them with a short stud wall to fit between the beam and bottom of the trusses. I'll also add, that's what I'd do seeing what I see in the pictures. If I saw more pics or in person, maybe my thoughts would change.

What do you plan on using for a ceiling ? Ribbed metal might be a good choice as it will be lightweight for those trusses.

 

[Gary S]

No serious decision here. Insulate.

Around here, an uninsulated garage will be air temperature in winter (-30 degrees), and around 130 degrees in summer. An insulated garage will be around +10 in winter and 80 in summer.
Which one would you rather attempt to heat or cool?

 

[vern1]

First off, thanks for some quick thoughts

Second, yes it is a hack job done before my time so I am just trying to make the best of it

Lugnut, yes I figured that would make the most sense ie insulate everything or nothing ie no point in having 2 walls insulated if u dont do the ceiling

Nutts: good point on the studs cause as you say will need it for the drywall regardless. And yes the blocks are mortared that would have made me even nervous if that wasnt the case. Re the trusses, i will have to read up on what a stud wall is (remember I am a beginner) before I can get back to you on that one. One of the challenges with the trusses is that a couple are off centre from the steel beam ie they dont line up with the beam so not sure how to handle that. I have been reluctant to mess with the roof support but if I am going to insulate I may have to deal with it

Re the ceiling material, thats all up for debate but that is any interesting thought vs drywall. Is it better to build a ceiling ie attached to the bottom of the trusses and insulate on top of that vs insulating right against the roof line?

Gary, I really dont care about the summer but point taken for the winter when I do most of my puttering

 

[Nowater]

Unless you need to heat the space above the ceiling joists, build a ceiling there and insulate on top of that. Compare the difference in square feet of the ceiling versus the square feet of roof joints, for a cost comparison. If you build the ceiling, consider using blown in insulation above it.

The biggest factor will be how air tight your structure is. Air changes will lose heat much faster that any heat loss through walls and roof. Take the time to caulk now, or whatever it takes.

 

[vern1]

Yes thanks, good pt on the caulking and sealing. More work needs to be done there asits far from air tight

 

[spotco2]

As others said, add studs to the walls and insulate them.

If you can find rolls instead of packs of batts, it's typically much cheaper. Just cut to fit with a razor knife.

 

[38Chevy454]

Agree with the rest, insulation is big benefit. Make as air tight as you can. I would make flat ceiling and put insulation on top, as much as you can. Walls thick as you can as well.

ONe thing that is not said enough, and you mentioned in your orig post. Insulation gives you a moderating effect. So you will not have to keep running the heater, with it cycling as much. Once heated up, it will stay longer at the deisred temp.

 

[vern1]

Thanks for all the advice. I will insulate the current wall i am working on and then work to insulate the rest of the place.

I will need to sort out the roof supports because as you can see below, as its set up its (1) not a very solid long term support set up; and (2) it would make it very difficult to create a ceiling as its currently set up

All 4 of the trusses are offset to the one side of the beam and therefore thats why they have the Rube Goldberg system to try and support the roof and balance it on the other side. One of the trusses has lots of pieces nailed to it but it doesnt actually connect with the steel beam! (sorry pics came out sideways but dont know how to correct them)

My cousin is a carpenter so I am seeking his input this weekend on better solutions that would allow me to brace the roof more securely and cleanly and allow me to construct some type of ceiling that i can then lay or blow insulation on to.

Thanks and

 

[vern1]

Oh and several of the supports arent real trusses as I understand the term rather they are just 2x4's attached to the roof and then somehow then balanced on the steel beam. Its all a mess really

 

[Olinrj]

If the beam is properly supported and mounted at both exterior walls, it shouldn't take your cousin too much time to re-shore the rafters and frame in a lower ceiling. If it were my garage, I'd use 2x6 for the ceiling joists and R-19 batt insulation. An attic scuttle would allow access for cold storage if needed.
The garage definitely has potential and the beam would be great with a small chain hoist to assist in any heavy lifting. Let us know what direction you take and keep the progress pics coming!

 

[vern1]

Thanks olinrj will see what he says this wkend

The steel beam already has a runner on it so i have thought the same thing (although hoping i dont need to pull my engine - 96 Porche)

I really enjoy the garage thougb so will keep plugging along....

 

[justanengineer]

I'll throw in my first two cents - I am in Minnesota, so I feel your temperature pains, etc. For the money, it is much more wise to spend cash insulating the ceiling, as that is where a majority of your heat loss will be. If you only insulate the walls, or some of the walls, your heat retention will be poor and ultimately you will not be happy. I could go on, but I would just start saying stuff that spends your money.

+1. I insulated between the garage and attic this summer but couldnt do the walls since they were already paneled, theres been a seriously noticeable difference in temperature ever since.

 

[ZRX1040]

Sheeted my ceiling with foil covered styrofaom and blew enough cellulose to cover the rafters and installed a lull down ladder with the foam on the bottom. I store lightweight stuff like lawn furniture and christmas decorations up there. Works great, lightweight and was easy to install with drywall screws and fender washers.

Ever considered spray foam for the walls? Or plastic sheeting with cellulose or foam beads blown in? could always cover with drywall or plywood later.

 

[NUTTSGT]

If the beam is properly supported and mounted at both exterior walls, it shouldn't take your cousin too much time to re-shore the rafters and frame in a lower ceiling. If it were my garage, I'd use 2x6 for the ceiling joists and R-19 batt insulation. An attic scuttle would allow access for cold storage if needed.

I had thought about this as I was reading back through this thread.


When I mentioned stud wall earlier, I meant just a short wall framed up, just like a mini wall. If you build one and set on top of the beam, it will give you a place to set ceiling joists, like Olin mentions.

Just fix the wall first so it can properly support the roof structure. Put your ceiling trusses 24" OC so it makes insulating easy. Your cousin will understand and can have it knocked out in no time.

 

[vern1]

ZRX, now that looks cool!

Nutts, thanks again and will revert once my cous has a look

Thanks all!