Soot Issue

[mikester]

Reaching out to the HVAC guys.
I have a small house. In 2008 I had a Biasi boiler installed. Riello burner. Vaughn water tank. Since it was installed Ive had it cleaned every year. Never missed having it serviced. I actually know the guy that services it so when he does it we usually gab while he does the cleaning. Every time he does it he comments how clean it runs. Not much soot at all.
I also have a Glacier Bay insert in the fireplace in my living room. Older unit, it was in the house before I bought it back in 1982. Back in the 80s we used the stove quite a bit. We also had the chimneys cleaned every year.
In 1990 my son was born. Since the stove was in the living room we stopped using it. Didnt want to worry about my son touching a hot stove. Had another kid in '95 so again the stove sat idle for a while.
As my kids got older we started to use it again. One year the guy cleaning the chimney told me one of the chimney pipes cracked and a piece was hanging in a little. He said I should have it sleeved. I knew the chimney guy for at least 25 years. We worked at the same place and did chimneys on the side. He did the sleeve for the stove side back in the late 90s. Never had an issue all these years.
My buddy that did the chimney cleaning stopped doing it a few years ago. Getting too old to climb up on roofs. Last week we had a guy come over and he did both sides. He said the chimneys were very clean. He brushed everything down and vacuumed out the stove and the one for the boiler.
Now comes the issue.
I havent burned wood for the past few years. I only burned seasoned oak and maple when I did. No candles burned in the house.
For some reason I have soot along the wall/ceilings in every room on the main floor. Not heavy but noticeable. When we wash the kitchen floor and hallway (tile) the mop comes up black. This is done twice a week. Not only the traffic area, but even under the kitchen table. Under the baseboard radiators. Im stumped.
Im pretty sure the Biasi boilers run well even in low draft situations. Never had an issue all these years. The chimney guy said the problem is called ghosting.
What the heck could be causing this ?

 

[gmcgeo]

black soot in the areas is it white soot at the unit? This is an oil fired unit correct?

Black soot is incomplete burning, and leaking out of unit somewhere. should be easy to see.

If the boiler is not the issue, do you use a gas range? or gas heater of some sort in the house?

 

[mikester]

black soot in the areas is it white soot at the unit? This is an oil fired unit correct?

Black soot is incomplete burning, and leaking out of unit somewhere. should be easy to see.

If the boiler is not the issue, do you use a gas range? or gas heater of some sort in the house?

Yes, its an oil fired boiler. We also have a gas (propane) stove.

 

[gmcgeo]

Yes, its an oil fired boiler. We also have a gas (propane) stove.

Is your stove flames on the top burner very yellow?

 

[mikester]

Is your stove flames on the top burner very yellow?

Never noticed but I just went in and turned on all four. Little flecks of yellow here and there every few seconds but mostly blue.

 

[zak77]

What is the flue layout for the boiler and fireplace?

 

[gmcgeo]

Never noticed but I just went in and turned on all four. Little flecks of yellow here and there every few seconds but mostly blue.

ok, oven good? do you notice black soot at the boiler around the burner?

 

[mikester]

Heres what I have. Boiler looks pretty clean. I did notice the hole in the stack from the soot test wasnt taped over. Maybe the guy forgot to do it this time. I have a roll of tin tape to cover that but could a small hole like that cause the problem ?

 

[gmcgeo]

Well, looking at these pics. I would need to see some data from an analyzer to see what's going on but everything looks very clean.

find the room that has the most soot, make sure all doors are close and take a toilet paper and hold it up to see where the air is moving. follow it. its pulling in from somewhere.

You must have a negative draft. new windows lately? anything change to the house? new doors? anything to tighten the house up?

 

[mikester]

Well, looking at these pics. I would need to see some data from an analyzer to see what's going on but everything looks very clean.

find the room that has the most soot, make sure all doors are close and take a toilet paper and hold it up to see where the air is moving. follow it. its pulling in from somewhere.

You must have a negative draft. new windows lately? anything change to the house? new doors? anything to tighten the house up?

We remodeled the house a few times over the years. All the windows are Andersen double hung. Most on the main floor have been replaced or new sashes. Everything is tight. Pella back door from 2007. Front door is in the living room and tight. When we gutted the house back in the early 90s we reinsulated the whole house. Its very strange. Never had this issue before and the kitchen, hallway and bathroom are the worst. The furthest corners.
My wife and I have been pulling things apart for the past three days. Shes very OCD and she keeps the house spotless. This is making her crazy. We pulled the fridge out yesterday and the wall behind it was discolored from soot. Hard to clean off the beaded pine. Looks like after we figure this out the whole inside will need a repaint.
As I was typing this she just called me into the bedroom to see the back of the slant fin. For some reason I dont think this is normal. Its soot.
We were just talking about the rooms that are the worst. She brought up an interesting point. We have central AC in the house. Due to the age of the house (122 years old) and the layout of the second floor the air handler for the first floor is in the basement and the vents are in the floor. Of course theyre in front of the windows. Could they be the issue ? The return is in the living room. Filter gets changed every five or six weeks in the summer months.

 

[gmcgeo]

We remodeled the house a few times over the years. All the windows are Andersen double hung. Most on the main floor have been replaced or new sashes. Everything is tight. Pella back door from 2007. Front door is in the living room and tight. When we gutted the house back in the early 90s we reinsulated the whole house. Its very strange. Never had this issue before and the kitchen, hallway and bathroom are the worst. The furthest corners.
My wife and I have been pulling things apart for the past three days. Shes very OCD and she keeps the house spotless. This is making her crazy. We pulled the fridge out yesterday and the wall behind it was discolored from soot. Hard to clean off the beaded pine. Looks like after we figure this out the whole inside will need a repaint.
As I was typing this she just called me into the bedroom to see the back of the slant fin. For some reason I dont think this is normal. Its soot.
We were just talking about the rooms that are the worst. She brought up an interesting point. We have central AC in the house. Due to the age of the house (122 years old) and the layout of the second floor the air handler for the first floor is in the basement and the vents are in the floor. Of course theyre in front of the windows. Could they be the issue ? The return is in the living room. Filter gets changed every five or six weeks in the summer months.

What does the filters look like? Black also?

Is your boiler near your clothes dryer?

 

[mikester]

What does the filters look like? Black also?

Not black but we have two indoor cats so they have a bit of fur.

 

[mikester]

One thing I noticed when I was looking at the boiler. The automatic air vent has been dripping water all over the black pipe. Its been replaced every few years which is a pain in the ***. For a boiler that was put in back in '08 the pipes are pretty rusty. Im going to call the guy that installed it and have him replace those pipes. Its also dripping on the chimney pipe at the elbow. Looks pretty nasty. Im sure this wont be cheap but I want it done before the temps drop.

 

[gmcgeo]

If your house is to tight then the boiler is not getting the correct amount of air and sooting the house.

 

[mikester]

If your house is to tight then the boiler is not getting the correct amount of air and sooting the house.

Damn, how the heck can I fix that ?

 

[fitter30]

Hole in the flue for flue analyzer should be plug or a patch over it. But there no soot around it. Barometric damper looks clean. Pick up some cheese cloth put a layer or two behind supply grill. Normally dirt around supply grill and ceiling is from supply air it's from the turbulence swirling pick up dirt from the room air. Fuel analyzer can pick up a crack in the heat exchanger or one that needs adjustment. What to find out how tight your house is? Blower door test. Call your electric company see if they offer a energy audit that includes blower door test my coop charge $50 3 years ago gave me led bulbs and other stuff with it. Erv or hrv can improve the air pressure in the house.

 

[mikester]

If your house is to tight then the boiler is not getting the correct amount of air and sooting the house.

The odd thing is we're had this boiler and AC setup since 2008. Never noticed this before.

 

[Jackfre]

Biasi’s are nice boilers. It looks like an exterior chimney, Yes? What size is the liner in the flue, the firing rate. We spend all of our time pumping air out of buildings and little equalizing the negative pressure. We have pretty much taken the technology of the thermos bottle and applied it to home construction. You can cut registers and holes in the basement area to provide combustion and dilution air. That is a simple solution but youy are introducing cold air 24/7. Ther are a couple mechanical systems you might check out. I prefer Tjernlund’s Combustion Air Enforcer. The other is the Field’s Fan in a Can. They tie into the burner controls providing CA on the call for heat and shutting down when the stat is satisfied. I ask about the chimney also because exterior flues are difficult espectially if they are over sized. Sometimes an insulated liner in the flue solves a lot of problems. Appendix E in NFPA 31, Oil INstallation Code, shows sizing for liners based upon system efficiency, height of chimney and firing rate. I would look the CA issue first, but keep the flue in mind as well.

 

[gmcgeo]

Fan in the can is a great option like Jackfre says, i have used this.

The odd thing is we're had this boiler and AC setup since 2008. Never noticed this before.

Something has recently changed in your house, or you would not have soot. just have to figure out what that is.

 

[Jackfre]

Just for a drill, get your firing rate and how tall the chimney is and I will dig up my copy of 31 for liner sizing suggestions. It is possible with masonry chimneys to develop cracks. Perhaps that is worth looking into. The enforcer or FIC handle the boiler needs. These types of sooting or ghosting issues are hard to pin point. We seal ourselves up in the house, after work/school cook dinner, and evening reading/TV, and to bed. Nothing has been opened, the boiler is humming along and then is coming up short on air. It’s gasping. It can result in a no-heat. Oh, No!, call the tech and the house is under negative pressure. He arrives, opens the door and the problem is solved. He walks in, “what’s the problem?” As it is soot, the boiler is the likely candidate, but all other combustion appliance should be looked at. Glad you don’t burn candles. They are a definite cause of ghosting.

 

[zak77]

The reason i asked about the chimney setup was when i bought my house years ago i noticed a lot of soot all over the place, and i mean everywhere. I couldnt figure out where it came from but it got cleaned up and never had an issue again. The previous owner had a pellet stove insert in the fireplace which that flue ran parallel with the flue for the boiler in the same chimney, different flues. During the winter i can feel cold air coming down the boiler's flue(in basement) so my theory is the pellet stv insert was creating a negative draft in the house, pulling air down the boiler's flue and into the house. The soot was probably a mix of boiler combustion and pellet stv exhaust. When i do burn a fire in the fireplace i crack a nearby window otherwise i can smell wood smoke in the basement as it's being pulled down the boiler's flue.

 

[Wheelingit]

Do you have a whole house attic fan? I had a situation once that when the fan was turned on it actually sucked the combustion gasses out of the boiler that was heating domestic hot water in the summer.

 

[American Locomotive]

Look at the "T" union on your flue pipe. You can see soot blasting out the backside of the vertical section of flue pipe and covering the horizontal. You can also see a dark ring and soot on the damper as well.

Pretty sure you have poor draft, and the flue damper not even being slightly open is evidence of that to me, IMO.

 

[nickleone]

Damn, how the heck can I fix that ?

Run a duct from the outside for air to the boiler.

 

[mikester]

Do you have a whole house attic fan? I had a situation once that when the fan was turned on it actually sucked the combustion gasses out of the boiler that was heating domestic hot water in the summer.

House doesnt have an attic. Its a 1 1/2 story house. The second floor that might have been considered the attic was converted into living space back in the mid-late 50s. Currently theres a bedroom and bath with forced hot air and AC. Its the second zone of the boiler. Theres an air handler behind the knee wall with a coil for heat.

 

[mikester]

Look at the "T" union on your flue pipe. You can see soot blasting out the backside of the vertical section of flue pipe and covering the horizontal. You can also see a dark ring and soot on the damper as well.

Pretty sure you have poor draft, and the flue damper not even being slightly open is evidence of that to me, IMO.

Ive got the guy thats been servicing boiler coming over to take a look at it next week. I want him to replace the black pipe leading up to the bleeder and also replace all the flue pipe going to the chimney. Hopefully he has a meter to check the draft. Odd that after all these years this would be an issue.