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Sourcing Gas for MIG Welder

zendriver

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Finally setting up the Vulcan MIG to do mostly body panel work (at least for now). Probably just rust work on two vehicle (maybe grandson will use it).

trying to figure out what's the best type of Gas mixture and where to source a tank. Amazon, local dealers :dunno: and also what a adequate size tank. The welder will be on a single welder, roll around cart.

I've looked at FBM and CL, most of those used tank offerings look a bit iffy (to me anyway) and they are not giving them away.

Thanks
 
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Wamsutta

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The gas mixture depends on the material you're welding and as far as where to source the bottle, that depends on whether you want it to be an exchange bottle or if you want it back every time. I bought a gas bottle from Amazon because I wanted a brand new bottle that I'm going to keep. When I go to get it filled, there's a special tag that goes on it to identify it as an owner's bottle that's going to be picked up by the owner after being filled. Besides the tag, it's easy to identify by its perfect paint.
 
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zendriver

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The gas mixture depends on the material you're welding and as far as where to source the bottle, that depends on whether you want it to be an exchange bottle or if you want it back every time. I bought a gas bottle from Amazon because I wanted a brand new bottle that I'm going to keep. When I go to get it filled, there's a special tag that goes on it to identify it as an owner's bottle that's going to be picked up by the owner after being filled. Besides the tag, it's easy to identify by its perfect paint.
I think our local weld supply just replaces and sends the tank out elsewhere for refilling. IDK if the tank is pretty or not, I'll check with them on price.

What's the application to use a CO2/argon mix? Welding will mostly be automotive sheet metal.
 

finn

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If you want to save money, CO2 is cheaper than the argon mix, but there’s more spatter and the welds aren’t as pretty. Many body shops seem to use CO2 because of the relatively low cost.

I have a couple of bottles I bought (maybe a 99 year lease, but I don’t know if they still do that), a rented bottle of straight argon (for tig), and another, smaller bottle of straight argon I got (filled) from Cyberweld online. I think the rented bottle is a five year lease. Of course every five years the price goes up.

I saw no purpose in keeping the shiny new tank from Cyberweld when it needed refilling. It’s just a gas bottle and I had no attachment to it or qualms about getting a well used bottle in exchange. It’s a tool that I use in the shop, not something I put on my fireplace mantle.

Airgas rents weekly, and maybe monthly, which works for some people If they only use the gas sporadicly.
 

Wamsutta

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I think our local weld supply just replaces and sends the tank out elsewhere for refilling. IDK if the tank is pretty or not, I'll check with them on price.

What's the application to use a CO2/argon mix? Welding will mostly be automotive sheet metal.
The thing about it is, buying a used bottle from a welding supply costs about the same as a brand new bottle from Amazon.

75 percent Argon mixed with 25 percent CO2 gas is used for mild steel. The MIG wire will be ER70S-6.
 

Jswain

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The way a tank looks(for the most part) means basically nothing. As long as there is no arc strikes or dents & it's within its hydro date it's good.

You kind of have to figure this problem out backwards depending on your area. Do you have a place close by which will FILL your own tank? If they are just going to swap then why would you want to give them a fresh looking bottle for their used one? Will they fill at all or deal with you without a lease? If not then you'll need to get the bottle from them.

I switched over and use CO2 now for my miller 250. I personally think it welds nicer then c25. It's much cheaper, and a 20lb bottle nets 175cuft. All you need is a CO2/argon adapter for your regulator. Many more places will fill a CO2 tank as well.

If you stick with ar/CO2 mix I would not go smaller than 80cuft no matter how much you convince yourself it will be ok, if you go with a 20/40/55 you'll spend more on gas then the difference in the initial purchase of the bigger bottle.
 

no704

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I use CO2. Backup bottle can also be used in the kegerator. Nozzle dip and anti splatter spray are a good idea.
CO2 bottle can also be filled at brewer supply or a good liquor store. My brewery supply store can do a liquid fill.
 

dnschmidt

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Praxair, now Linde - where I get my gas.
Airgas (robbers)
Matheson Gas Products (best prices in the Phoenix metro area)
British Oxygen (BOC)

If you're trying to do automotive sheet metal the 0.023 wire is the way to go. With a 110V welder that's probably the best all around choice as well. With my 180 Primeweld a (220V machine) I use 0.035 wire but that's for 1/8"to 1/4" steel.

75/25 is much nicer than CO2 but CO2 is cheap and lasts forever because it's liquid in the bottle.
 

isb cornbinder

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I have 4 bottles. 2 argon and 2, 75/25. I bought then 30 years ago. When I take them in for filling, it is an exchange. I opened an account for identification reasons. My welding go-to is Air Liquide.
I like the 2 bottle system. I do not know if there is such a thing as a fuel meter that will say when I am out of gas. Well thanks for that! The money is better spent on a second tank. BTW, I also own 2 of those small plumber's acetylene tanks and 2 oxygen tanks.
 

Aaron_W

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CO2 is about 1/4 the cost of C25 argon / CO2 mix. The last time I got a refill, I thought about trying the mix to see how much of an improvement it made in my welds. The refill for CO2 about 1/2 the price of the mixed gas, but then it was pointed out you also get twice as much gas with straight CO2 because it liquifies under pressure (20lbs CO2 = 175cu ft vs 80cf for argon / CO2 mix).

If you have a local place to refill, then there are pluses to swapping the bottle each time you get a refill. The big one is you don't have to pay for getting the bottle hydro tested (every 5 years) or other repairs like a leaking stem. The swap also goes faster because you just drop off the old bottle, and they grab you a filled bottle. If you have your own bottle, then you have to wait for them to fill it.

Also if you decide to change gasses, no problem, at least at my welding supply. I bought a CO2 bottle, and a straight argon (for TIG) but when it is time to get a refill if I want to change to CO2 / Argon, or even some exotic mix, they don't care. I paid for a bottle and they will swap for a similar size of another type.

All of this depends on your local supplier though. Mine is cool with hobby guys even though they make pennies off of me compared to their commercial customers.


As far as size I think bigger is cheaper overall. I went with smaller tanks for better mobility 80CF / 20lbs (about 3 foot tall). I have to wheel my cart around a fair bit to weld, and a pair of full size tanks on the cart would have been really sketchy.
 

Beerhippie

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Just remember that if you're doing some welding, as opposed to welding for a living, a 20 lb can will probably last you for a year--at least. A 50 lb can will be good for several years of casual welding. Bigger is cheaper, but harder to handle.
 
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zendriver

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The thing about it is, buying a used bottle from a welding supply costs about the same as a brand new bottle from Amazon.

75 percent Argon mixed with 25 percent CO2 gas is used for mild steel. The MIG wire will be ER70S-6.
I was wondering about the price difference

One tank might last me for years
 

bdbecker

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This is what I use:

Looks like there are plenty of places in Indiana:

Prices have always been right in-line with what my local Airgas charges. It works just like a propane swap. You buy a full bottle, when it runs out you bring it to the store and swap it out for another full bottle, only having to pay for the price of the gas itself. The main benefit to this program is that you can get a bottle swapped during retail hours and on the weekends instead of the more restricted M-F, 8-5 hours that most weld supply houses operate under.
 

OccupantRJ

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Every time these threads pop up, there are folks who make a big deal about having a “pretty” bottle.

It’s always entertaining.
For real. With that being said, the first time I swapped my teal tank at my local Arc3 welding supply they sent me home with a nice blue bottle that closely matched my welder and welding table. Last 160 cu ft mix I got here was $45.
 

finn

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The tanks on the exchange program are nasty. If you're going to be looking at it everyday, having your own bottle is the way to go.
Put a bag over it.

It won’t be in your living room.

Actually, I bought a plastic garbage can that fits nicely over a tank. Bought it to keep the HOA police from seeing it since they don’t like compressed gas being stored in the neighborhood.
 
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dr_clyde

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Good god, the amount of hand wringing and fussing over the paint on a cylinder is absolutely WILD here. I can't tell sometimes if it's just trolling or an honest to god mental issue, but I've never seen anything like it anywhere else. Insisting on keeping perfect paint on "your" cylinder will only serve to aggravate the welding supply and cause you nothing but issues. This entire industry is built around the idea of exchanging cylinders so it's easier to maintain cylinder integrity (testing and safety becomes the burden of the LWS instead of the customer) and being able to bulk fill cylinders to be efficient and therefore cheaper. Being a thorn in the side of the supply house will do you no favors. I have owned a welding and fabrication business for many years and dealt with welding gases of all kinds, it behooves you to play the game by the rules the supplier has set down.

OP, go to your LWS (local welding supply) and ask them what the largest cylinder they'll sell you outright is. Buy that one. The bigger your cylinder, the cheaper the gas is per cubic foot. Get 75% co2 25% argon (also called C25) and a spool of .023" or .030" Lincoln Superarc wire. Don't lease a cylinder. Don't buy one from the farm store or amazon or wherever. When you run out of gas, you just swap it out at the LWS and you pay for the gas. Buying from the LWS is about the only way to ensure you won't get the run around when you need to exchange the cylinder. Welding cylinders are expensive because they are extremely dangerous if not made correctly and not maintained, and there's a tremendous cost associated with making and distributing pressure vessels. The good news is they maintain their value pretty well so if you needed to sell them later you can recoup most of your cost.

If they allow you to, set up a charge account with the LWS, even if you just pay at the counter. This usually gets you better pricing, account history, the ability to look up past orders or parts, and usually gets a sales rep attached to your account who you can call with questions or if you need to buy something. The difference in price can be staggering. What costs a joe public customer $150+ costs me $35. Strictly because I have an account. I set up my charge account long before I had a business and I was just working in my garage at home. I had gas and supplies delivered by a sales rep when I was 19 years old welding on my uncles truck at his house.

Good luck.
 

BigMike782

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Buy an 80cf cylinder of 75/25, exchange it in 5 years when you run out and be done with it.
Scraggly paint?......who cares, it's behind the welder, you're only going to see the neck and the valve.
When I worked in the paint dept of a hardware store I had a customer ask if they could have a can without a dent(tiny) in it, I stated that if the dent showed up on the wall I would repaint for them ;)
 

BigMike782

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If they allow you to, set up a charge account with the LWS, even if you just pay at the counter. This usually gets you better pricing, account history, the ability to look up past orders or parts, and usually gets a sales rep attached to your account who you can call with questions or if you need to buy something. The difference in price can be staggering. What costs a joe public customer $150+ costs me $35. Strictly because I have an account. I set up my charge account long before I had a business and I was just working in my garage at home. I had gas and supplies delivered by a sales rep when I was 19 years old welding on my uncles truck at his house.

Good luck.
This is not necessarily true. Setting up an account is a good idea. It does allow you to track purchases and lets the vendor see what tips you use when you need some but forgot which ones. Discounts are based on usage not just because you have an account. If you are using 1 150cf of C25 every 2 years you are likely going to pay walk in price. If you use 2 a month they are likely going to give you a break.
If you have a business that uses a high enough volume they will have outside sales that can support you but be aware that most of the sales force are not welders or fabricators.....they are sales people.
If you find someone at your LWS that has practical knowledge consider yourself lucky.
A relationship is a valuable asset. If the people behind the counter know you that can help.
This is my opinion......based on 30 yrs in retail and almost 20 yrs in a LWS.
 

Beerhippie

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Do you all have your welding tanks custom painted? Hand-wash or automatic? What's your preferred wax--hard wax or paste?

How do you all display these fine welding tanks? Living room, kitchen, or do you have a special place to display your gas collection?

Inquiring minds want to know....
 

VolvoRyan

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You look to be in Indiana. Down here, near Corydon, we have a company called ArcWeld. Not sure how far and wide they are, but they set me up pretty cheap for oxy-acet.

-Ryan
 

finn

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Good god, the amount of hand wringing and fussing over the paint on a cylinder is absolutely WILD here. I can't tell sometimes if it's just trolling or an honest to god mental issue, but I've never seen anything like it anywhere else. Insisting on keeping perfect paint on "your" cylinder will only serve to aggravate the welding supply and cause you nothing but issues. This entire industry is built around the idea of exchanging cylinders so it's easier to maintain cylinder integrity (testing and safety becomes the burden of the LWS instead of the customer) and being able to bulk fill cylinders to be efficient and therefore cheaper. Being a thorn in the side of the supply house will do you no favors. I have owned a welding and fabrication business for many years and dealt with welding gases of all kinds, it behooves you to play the game by the rules the supplier has set down.

OP, go to your LWS (local welding supply) and ask them what the largest cylinder they'll sell you outright is. Buy that one. The bigger your cylinder, the cheaper the gas is per cubic foot. Get 75% co2 25% argon (also called C25) and a spool of .023" or .030" Lincoln Superarc wire. Don't lease a cylinder. Don't buy one from the farm store or amazon or wherever. When you run out of gas, you just swap it out at the LWS and you pay for the gas. Buying from the LWS is about the only way to ensure you won't get the run around when you need to exchange the cylinder. Welding cylinders are expensive because they are extremely dangerous if not made correctly and not maintained, and there's a tremendous cost associated with making and distributing pressure vessels. The good news is they maintain their value pretty well so if you needed to sell them later you can recoup most of your cost.

If they allow you to, set up a charge account with the LWS, even if you just pay at the counter. This usually gets you better pricing, account history, the ability to look up past orders or parts, and usually gets a sales rep attached to your account who you can call with questions or if you need to buy something. The difference in price can be staggering. What costs a joe public customer $150+ costs me $35. Strictly because I have an account. I set up my charge account long before I had a business and I was just working in my garage at home. I had gas and supplies delivered by a sales rep when I was 19 years old welding on my uncles truck at his house.

Good luck.
I bought a filled cylinder from Cyberweld, then exchanged it at Airgas (who has generated hate from some posters here). No problems exchanging it. In fact, when I called around for pricing, the AirGas rep actually suggested I buy the first (filled) tank online, as they couldn’t match Internet prices, and would be happy to service my needs for exchanges, etc. He also said they could, upon request, refill my bought tank, but there might be a wait until they are filling a batch. They don’t fill daily, and the yard associate has other tasks.

His position is that high volume industrial accounts are where they make their money, but the are happy to service hobby users.

I did but additional filler rod when I eventually did the exchange, and their pipe, etc I’d pretty vast compared to the limited selection of cheap imports I see on the net.
 

Wamsutta

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Do you all have your welding tanks custom painted? Hand-wash or automatic? What's your preferred wax--hard wax or paste?

How do you all display these fine welding tanks? Living room, kitchen, or do you have a special place to display your gas collection?

Inquiring minds want to know....
It's all about the money. Why should I pay $400 for a beat up exchange tank when I can get a brand new one for next to the same price?

The tank I have has never been anywhere besides my place and Airgas. I know where it's been and that brings peace of mind.
 

dr_clyde

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This is not necessarily true. Setting up an account is a good idea. It does allow you to track purchases and lets the vendor see what tips you use when you need some but forgot which ones. Discounts are based on usage not just because you have an account. If you are using 1 150cf of C25 every 2 years you are likely going to pay walk in price. If you use 2 a month they are likely going to give you a break.
If you have a business that uses a high enough volume they will have outside sales that can support you but be aware that most of the sales force are not welders or fabricators.....they are sales people.
If you find someone at your LWS that has practical knowledge consider yourself lucky.
A relationship is a valuable asset. If the people behind the counter know you that can help.
This is my opinion......based on 30 yrs in retail and almost 20 yrs in a LWS.
This may be true where you’re at, but my LWS doesn’t price strictly on quantity, at least not at a the cylinder level. Bulk gas is a different story.

I know I pay basically the same price for cylinder gas as large companies. I know because I’ve purchased for both.

I know I got a better price on my gas because I had an account, the sales rep told me as much and I have a negotiated contract for gas pricing.

Without an account, they can’t as easily set pricing.

Welding supply shops vary and it’s not going to always be the same town to town, especially with locally owned businesses.
 

dr_clyde

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It's all about the money. Why should I pay $400 for a beat up exchange tank when I can get a brand new one for next to the same price?

The tank I have has never been anywhere besides my place and Airgas. I know where it's been and that brings peace of mind.
Because the welding supply is responsible for maintaining the certifications and testing, as well as providing delivery and exchanging the tanks at my location. I get 5 or 6 cylinders exchanged at once sometimes.

Plus my LWS paints their tanks regularly and all look just fine. I don’t get beat up tanks. They have a few scuffs and scratches from handling but that’s it.
 

ATC

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I've bought all my cylinders from Ebay years ago. Best prices around at the time, then I just hauled them down to Airgas or Arcet and swapped them out for full ones.

I have an 80cu-ft, and it's probably been 7-8 years since I've exchanged it. I can't believe it's been that long. I've gotten a good amount of welding projects done since then too.
 

liliysdad

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It's all about the money. Why should I pay $400 for a beat up exchange tank when I can get a brand new one for next to the same price?

The tank I have has never been anywhere besides my place and Airgas. I know where it's been and that brings peace of mind.

Where do you fear it might have gone?
 

AffableCurmudgeon

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trying to figure out what's the best type of Gas mixture and where to source a tank. Amazon, local dealers :dunno: and also what a adequate size tank. The welder will be on a single welder, roll around cart.

I've looked at FBM and CL, most of those used tank offerings look a bit iffy (to me anyway) and they are not giving them away.

Just did that this week. Got a Prime Weld 180 delivered on Wednesday. Also, had ordered a Thoroughbred 75/25 40cu empty bottle through Northern Tool's website for $260 plus about $10 in shipping. At Northern Tool store, they sell the same bottle for $320. Got that shiny new bottle delivered on Wednesday as well.

This morning, I took my empty bottle to the Northern Tool store and for $49, they exchanged it with a full bottle. This was easy and simple. I don't weld much. Every couple of years, I will exchange the bottle.
 

Crazyjake8493

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It's all about the money. Why should I pay $400 for a beat up exchange tank when I can get a brand new one for next to the same price?

The tank I have has never been anywhere besides my place and Airgas. I know where it's been and that brings peace of mind.
I just swap mine out for a full one and I'm on my way. Same with CO2 tanks for beer. I never got the obsession with shiny, decorative tanks. Mine aren't really on display, they sit in the garage next to the welders and in the basement next to the kegerator. My guests seem to care more about how the beer tastes than what the CO2 tank looks like.
 

Wamsutta

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I just swap mine out for a full one and I'm on my way. Same with CO2 tanks for beer. I never got the obsession with shiny, decorative tanks. Mine aren't really on display, they sit in the garage next to the welders and in the basement next to the kegerator. My guests seem to care more about how the beer tastes than what the CO2 tank looks like.
That's fine, you do you. You're one of those normal people. 😁
 

BigMike782

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This may be true where you’re at, but my LWS doesn’t price strictly on quantity, at least not at a the cylinder level. Bulk gas is a different story.

I know I pay basically the same price for cylinder gas as large companies. I know because I’ve purchased for both.

I know I got a better price on my gas because I had an account, the sales rep told me as much and I have a negotiated contract for gas pricing.

Without an account, they can’t as easily set pricing.

Welding supply shops vary and it’s not going to always be the same town to town, especially with locally owned businesses.
Your situation is much different than most here. You have a commercial shop, you are turning cylinders and have negotiated pricing.
Garage Journal Joe is not likely going to get your pricing for 1 oxygen and 2 C25 a year.
 

Wamsutta

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Your situation is much different than most here. You have a commercial shop, you are turning cylinders and have negotiated pricing.
Garage Journal Joe is not likely going to get your pricing for 1 oxygen and 2 C25 a year.
You are very much correct. I have to pay anywhere from $60 to $110 to fill the tank. For that kind of money, I want my own pretty tank.
 
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