Horrible fire in New York today. Blamed on a malfunctioning space heater. How do space heater malfunctions cause fires? I can certainly understand fires starting by surrounding heaters with flammable materials, running them on extension cards that are not heavy enough etc. but those are not really malfunctions. So what happens in an actual malfunction? Does it just get super hot? And are there no safety stops.?
Space Heater Malfunction
- Thread starter LOW1
- Start date
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
I can only assume they were able to trace the start of the fire to the space heater, but will have to do further investigation to determine what exactly happened.
malfunction could be a broad term. could be any number of issues/defects etc
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
gonna need more details... could be the tip-over safety shut off feature had a malfunction and the space heater lit the flooring on fire
Super Mech
Well-known member
This happened only about 20 minutes from me. I’m on the edge of the east Bronx and this happened more towards the west side. It was a big one for sure. As Stuart said, I’m pretty sure that they narrowed it down to the space heater but as far as a malfunction who knows. More than likely it was too close to flammables and/or an undersized extension cord. Jacobi Hospital near me was flooded with emergency equipment and TV crews as the have an outstanding burn unit here. Terrible for everyone involved.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
And the city building code required automatic closing doors to prevent such spread, but apparently one wasn’t installed here.
From a news item today, I took it as a lack of maintenance, door closers need to be checked, adjusted, and sometimes need to be replaced.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
FWIW: A lot of fire root cause analysis is psuedoscience at best. You really going to trace a raging inferno that destroyed an entire building down to a single space heater? Come on now...
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
The entire building didn't wasn't destroyed, and it appears billowing smoke was the main problem, not flames. Once the fire was knocked down, tracing it to its source may have straightforward. However, none of us know the details so it's all speculation.
Leaflessshadetree
Well-known member
Don't expect the media to provide technically accurate descriptions. Surprised they don't use the term shorted out.
Guess you have never been on fire cause and origin investigation ? Looking at burn and fire travel patterns. Which may include digging and sifting through debris for hours.
Origin is usually easier to find and prove. Cause can be undetermined in many cases.
Just like any profession there are a few with sketchy credentials and opinions that may challenge science and engineering.
Rumor has it one of the mayor's friends is an owner of the building. hmmmm.
edit source:
Everything We Know About the Bronx Building That Caught Fire and Killed 17
"This is going to be one of the worst fires that we have witnessed during modern times," NYC Mayor Eric Adams said.
www.newsweek.com
If I was a landlord and got a political appointment to "housing issues", I'd think I'd want to run and polish up any open maintenance tickets in the housing developments that have my name on the side of them.
I'll bet the central heating wasn't properly functioning, leading to the tenant spending extra money to buy and operate a space heater. who runs a space heater in an apartment for fun? in a city with central steam (like NYC), high rises usually have central heat, which means it's included in the rent and and heating system maintenance is not the tenant's responsibility.
I've been in a few places that have central steam heat, and if it's malfunctioning the other way, people either open a window, or put a blanket over the radiator to temper the heat.
333 east 181 street bronx 10457
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Super Mech
Well-known member
I live in the Bronx though all the way across town from there but I didn’t think they had steam plumbed in that area. I would like to guess they have their on oil fired boilers.
You may be right - I speak to central steam in general, not the Bronx itself. The building may have oil boilers but the tenants' don't have their own. doesn't really matter to the tenant either way though, they're not steamfitters. they shouldn't be trying to fix them unless they're also the super/maint guy.
SlappyWhite
Well-known member
May have been a cold or drafty spot in the apartment or one person wants things warmer than another.
Every year companies have issues in offices with people running space heaters under their desks.... as an example. No reason the same is not happening in apartments at scale.
Very tragic outcome.
Every year companies have issues in offices with people running space heaters under their desks.... as an example. No reason the same is not happening in apartments at scale.
Very tragic outcome.
Space heaters have been around for many years. I have a couple in the shop that are probably 60+ years old and still working. I don't believe that they have any safety features on them. One has a fan that blows across heat coils and the other just has coils that glow redhot and give off radiant heat. I could see something like one of them very easily starting a fire.
lg
no neat sig line
lg
no neat sig line
htmdude57
Well-known member
One of the tennants interviewed by news channel 7 said something like "Lots of people have heaters" (that live in that building). We don't like being cold.
So I would guess that the landlord doesn't heat the building sufficiently.
So I would guess that the landlord doesn't heat the building sufficiently.
htmdude57
Well-known member
True. I used to have to tell people to get rid of them. My boss used to read a magazine published by the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) where they would analyze every fire and explain what went wrong, and improve fire protection laws to eliminate those things from happening again.
Rumor has it one of the mayor's friends is an owner of the building. hmmmm.
edit source:
Everything We Know About the Bronx Building That Caught Fire and Killed 17
"This is going to be one of the worst fires that we have witnessed during modern times," NYC Mayor Eric Adams said.
If I was a landlord and got a political appointment to "housing issues", I'd think I'd want to run and polish up any open maintenance tickets in the housing developments that have my name on the side of them.
I'll bet the central heating wasn't properly functioning, leading to the tenant spending extra money to buy and operate a space heater. who runs a space heater in an apartment for fun? in a city with central steam (like NYC), high rises usually have central heat, which means it's included in the rent and and heating system maintenance is not the tenant's responsibility.
I've been in a few places that have central steam heat, and if it's malfunctioning the other way, people either open a window, or put a blanket over the radiator to temper the heat.
333 east 181 street bronx 10457
no one in a rental in the bronx is comfortable in the winter. its either way too hot with windows open or freezing. no inbetween.
kinda sarcasm. kinda not.
Malfunction is sort of a PC word for not blaming the person who started it... probably innocent, but definitely careless. I'll just stop here. Watch the whole "special report" and you'll get a sense of it is just a catch phase every one jumps onto and have no idea wtf it really means.... when they really don't know but wants some air time. Typical
Just read this story.
slate.com
The Bronx Building That Burned Was Supposed to Be Affordable Housing Done Right
What went wrong?
that doesn't really say what exactly is the "malfunction" in the space heater... remember space heater usually refer to those electrical heaters that is plug into the wall outlets , but they have multiple safety build in from anti tipping to over heating to shorting to over load. Even the ones from 30 years ago.... unless a piece of paper fly in, dust , drapes etc ignite by the heating elements.Just read this story.
The Bronx Building That Burned Was Supposed to Be Affordable Housing Done Right
What went wrong?
These space heater are not referring to the steam, or the hydronic systems typical building uses regardless of the heat source from a huge 30 feet gas/oil dual fire boiler (yes they are dual fuel capable) or steam from con-ed.....
the door left open and the stair case doors propped open where the smoke was able to travel through out the whole building is a different issues... that is actually FDNYissue, anyways probably will be some ****** rules out as a result of this incident like the last time similar incident happened.
They do have safety features... not 100% sure about the 60+ year old ones, even the 30 years old one have at minimum thermal cutoff, and fused. The newer ones have anti tipping as well a basic mechanical switch that cuts off power when it is not sitting upright.
I think the point I was trying to make is that there are some really old space heaters out there, still in use, that were in place before the "modern" safety feature were mandated.
lg
no neat sig line
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
Use of a space heater doesn't necessarily mean there was a problem with the regular heat in the building - it could have been in the apartment of an old lady who's cold all the time. Again, it's all speculation until they can complete the investigation and release a report.
nadogail
Well-known member
I have seen heaters fail because of rough handling, I was once called to a job where the heater looked like it had been Drop Kicked, obvious physical damage. Of course no one had seen or heard anything.
Syberia
Well-known member
A tip-over switch isn't going to help if the thing gets knocked over onto carpet or other flammable material while the elements are still glowing red.
I suspect the fire was most likely caused by flammable materials placed on/too close to the heater, or dodgy electrical wiring either in the walls or by way of a sketchy extension cord.
I suspect the fire was most likely caused by flammable materials placed on/too close to the heater, or dodgy electrical wiring either in the walls or by way of a sketchy extension cord.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
Space heater elements cool down very rapidly when tipped over. You'd basically have to have one trip over onto a mound of loose dryer lint to cause a fire.
Syberia
Well-known member
I have one right beside me and just tested it; the elements take a good 15-20 seconds to stop glowing. The switch will cut power right as it falls on the carpet. I'm not going to experiment with whether or not that will start a fire, for obvious reasons.
Bretny
Well-known member
How old is it? Both my space heaters dont have elements that glow red. You can touch everywhere on the heater and not get burnt.
If your heater has wood grain..its time to get rid of it.
bwringer
Well-known member
I don't really want to comment on this tragedy.
However, I'll note that space heaters are an absolute bane in many workplaces -- people love to sneak them in, hide them under their desks, overload outlets with two or three heaters, plug them into UPS units, plug them into power strips and/or sketchy extension cords, etc.
And of course everyone forgets to or refuses to shut them off when they go home. No matter what policies you make and how you enforce them, the damn things keep coming back.
Aside from the electrical overloading problem, there are space heaters that are more or less inherently safe, or at least safer than the inexpensive "hot wire" type. But they are much more expensive and uncommon.
However, I'll note that space heaters are an absolute bane in many workplaces -- people love to sneak them in, hide them under their desks, overload outlets with two or three heaters, plug them into UPS units, plug them into power strips and/or sketchy extension cords, etc.
And of course everyone forgets to or refuses to shut them off when they go home. No matter what policies you make and how you enforce them, the damn things keep coming back.
Aside from the electrical overloading problem, there are space heaters that are more or less inherently safe, or at least safer than the inexpensive "hot wire" type. But they are much more expensive and uncommon.
ripperd
Well-known member
I bought one of the oil filled radiator types for inside our camper. Electric is free and quiet vs propane at campsites! This kind I feel very safe with.
nadogail
Well-known member
Good quality electric space heaters **** up the kilowatts but I have found when used in accordance with the manufactures instructions to be very safe.