Space issues with 30amp Outlet behind Kitchen Range - Input from Electricians?

[Garage Dog]

Gentlemen,

I have a new range that will protrude 2 1/2" beyond my countertop if installed flush against the 2x4 interior wall. The countertops come out 25 1/2" from the wall and the range comes out to about 28" if it can go back flush against the wall. This will be fine based on the design of the range, but I am trying to not have the range stick out any further.

There is an existing 30 amp outlet maybe 8" off the floor that sticks out about 1/2". The 30 amp plug adds another 1"+ sticking out from the wall if I simply plug into that outlet. So if I use what is there, the outlet and plug will make the range sit 1 1/2" off the wall pushed tight against the plug, which is not ideal as the range will then protrude 4"+ past the countertops.

There are two options I am considering:

1) Move the outlet down the wall so it basically sits at floor level. The range is on legs and the legs create a 4 3/8" space under the entire unit (think of it as a toe kick space that goes all the way back to the wall). So the outlet and plug would no longer interfere with the range sliding back flush against the wall as the outlet and plug would stick out from the wall in the open space below the body of the unit.

2) Open up the stud bay permanently where the outlet is currently located. Turn the outlet 90* and attach it to the face of the stud. Nothing sticks out anymore as the outlet and plug are perpendicular to the wall in an open stud bay. Nothing is buried as it will be left open and it can't be seen as it is hidden by the range...

The house is Wisconsin

Do the electricians here have any input on these ideas or have alternative suggestions?

Thanks,

GD

 

[cmanningjr 01]

You can get a Range Receptacle that goes in a single gang box. It'll fit flush with the wall then..


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[cmanningjr 01]

http://m.lowes.com/pd/Utilitech-50-Amp-Flush-Mount-Range-Appliance-Electrical-Outlet/3775483


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[checkthisout]

The issue is that the outlet is too high on the wall. You would have a hard time stuffing that range wire into a single gang box.

I'm not a sparky but:

1) See if the outlet is fed from the ceiling or floor. If it's fed from the floor, the solution is easy. Hack out drywall and move box down.

2) If it's fed from the ceiling your idea might work but it's going to depend on how thick the wall as to whether or not you reach the desired clearance. Then I think your only reasonable option would be to open sheet rock, add a junction box and then a short piece of wire to extend the outlet down. There might be enough slack up the ceiling in order to move it down but then you got to open the sheetrock all the way up the wall.

 

[Falcon67]

We had that problem with the new range - plug was too high. I put a box in below the exiting, punched a port out the bottom of the exiting and patched in a short drop to the new lower box. Reinstalled the outlet and capped the old box.

 

[JACDes]

Your new range should have come with an installation manual, the manual will show
the "roughing in" location for power.

That being said.. most ranges are not case depth and will always protrude past the base cabinets.

that is unless you bought a high end "slide in" range

good luck

 

[justsam]

Is it a solid back on the range? Per chance is there an open area where the plug would protrude?

I suspect you will not be so lucky as the above might suggest, so I would be one for just moving the outlet down a bit.

You may want to do a search here for discussions on range receptacle types and limitations.

Are you sure of the requirements? I would have expected a 50Amp as opposed to 30.

 

[Garage Dog]

FYI - The wire supplying the outlet is run from the basement, so I would have the wire to drop the outlet down. I also have access below, so I could pull the extra down into the floor joist bay if need be.

Sam - I think you are right on the 50amp service, just not the same configuration as the 50amp outlet in the shop. The back of the unit is solid except for two vertical recessed channels about 2 1/2" wide IIRC, each channel is just in from sides, one has to be used for gas. I thought it would be easier to move it down or recess it as I know I have the wire to do that, I don't have the wire move the outlet horizontally to line-up with one of the recessed channels.

Thanks for the input guys

 

[checkthisout]

FYI - The wire supplying the outlet is run from the basement, so I would have the wire to drop the outlet down. I also have access below, so I could pull the extra down into the floor joist bay if need be.

You got it easy. Just open the wall, detach box from joists and drop it down. Done! Of course patch the drywall when you're done.

 

[Garage Dog]

Yes, it should be relatively easy to drop it down. Everything I do is easy and can be done in about 20min if you ask my wife.

Just wanted to make sure there wasn't some code that said outlets have to be a certain distance off the floor within 10 feet of a kitchen sink or something like that.

 

[Hpozzuoli]

I replied to your other thread about moving the stove. On the outlet part just open the bay up and push it back or turn it like you suggested. I think I pushed mine into the bay.

It's the bigger stoves that cause the problems. I do kitchens and baths for a living and the 30" stoves slide right in with a perfect rear opening for gas and electric. The big ones are not like that.

 

[checkthisout]

Yes, it should be relatively easy to drop it down. Everything I do is easy and can be done in about 20min if you ask my wife.

Just wanted to make sure there wasn't some code that said outlets have to be a certain distance off the floor within 10 feet of a kitchen sink or something like that.

Nope.

 

[dave*99]

The issue is that the outlet is too high on the wall. You would have a hard time stuffing that range wire into a single gang box.

I'm not a sparky but:

1) See if the outlet is fed from the ceiling or floor. If it's fed from the floor, the solution is easy. Hack out drywall and move box down.

2) If it's fed from the ceiling your idea might work but it's going to depend on how thick the wall as to whether or not you reach the desired clearance. Then I think your only reasonable option would be to open sheet rock, add a junction box and then a short piece of wire to extend the outlet down. There might be enough slack up the ceiling in order to move it down but then you got to open the sheetrock all the way up the wall.

You are correct that stuffing the wire in a single box would not work.

This box is large enough and has a clamp for the cable:

Carlon B234ADJC Outlet Box, 2 Gang, New Work, 5-5/8-Inch Width by 3-Inch Depth by 3-5/8-Inch Height, Blue

 

[Whitworth]

Skip the outlet and plug all together. Just hard wire the range into the junction box.

 

[dave*99]

Skip the outlet and plug all together. Just hard wire the range into the junction box.

A disconnect is required. The receptacle and plug serve that purpose.

 

[Garage Dog]

For those of you following along and in the know, just curious if there is a requirement for a metal sheathed whip (like a greenfield casing) or can whatever cord I make-up can just coil up under the unit?

My speed oven came with a whip and made me wonder if it was required...

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Lower the outlet and loop the cord out of the way.

 

[Cmreschke]

A disconnect is required. The receptacle and plug serve that purpose.

DC is required, or a breaker lockout. But the suggestion to cut it all and hard wire is hack as ****. Get a floor mounted receptacle and mount it to the floor. Probably work fine.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

....There is an existing 30 amp outlet maybe 8" off the floor that sticks out about 1/2". The 30 amp plug....

Thanks,

GD

....Sam - I think you are right on the 50amp service, just not the same configuration as the 50amp outlet in the shop.....

Ranges have always been 50a. The outlet in your gaage is probably a NEMA 6-50R which is a grounded 240v outlet.

Existing range outlets(which are grandfathered in and are no longer used for new construction) are NEMA 10-50r which is a dual voltage 125v/250v non grounded outlet.

They look different/have different slots so thats why youre confused...

 

[wssix99]

Yes, it should be relatively easy to drop it down. Everything I do is easy and can be done in about 20min if you ask my wife.

Just wanted to make sure there wasn't some code that said outlets have to be a certain distance off the floor within 10 feet of a kitchen sink or something like that.

No, but code does require you to repair the drywall around the box.

 

[Whitworth]

DC is required, or a breaker lockout. But the suggestion to cut it all and hard wire is hack as ****. Get a floor mounted receptacle and mount it to the floor. Probably work fine.

Breaker can act as disconnect, lockout or not. It is not hack work. It is better work than a receptacle as it eliminates as much as two sets of connections.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Ranges have always been 50a. The outlet in your gaage is probably a NEMA 6-50R which is a grounded 240v outlet.

Existing range outlets(which are grandfathered in and are no longer used for new construction) are NEMA 10-50r which is a dual voltage 125v/250v non grounded outlet.

They look different/have different slots so thats why youre confused...

I see lots of ranges on 30a circuits.

 

[Cmreschke]

A range is NOT a permantly fixed appliance, wiring with permanent wiring, ex flex and wire nuts or split bolts, imo is hack work.

The number of connections is still the same a connection in the box and a connection in the appliance. A cord offers more flexibility than flex as well. Flex would have to be potentially longer so more to bury, hide, coil up underneath the range because you have to work making the connections and be able to get out of the hole to push the appliance back in. With a cord you don't have that situation. You can put the cord on the appliance wherever the appliance is sitting, and put the receptacle on without the range in the way.

Your disconnecting means I only have a copy of the 2008 nec handy so the article number may change a bit but not by much.
Article 422.23(b) states that you need the breaker lock if using the breaker.

Oh yeah by the way, hardwire g a house range with permanent wiring is considered HACK work imo.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I see lots of ranges on 30a circuits.

Really?

Must be a small range.

All the ones Ive worked on have been 50a outlet on a 40a or 50a circuit.

 

[Cmreschke]

I've seen cooktops, or ovens only on less than 40, bit always see the ranges on 40s or even 50s.

 

[Whitworth]

A range is NOT a permantly fixed appliance, wiring with permanent wiring, ex flex and wire nuts or split bolts, imo is hack work.

The number of connections is still the same a connection in the box and a connection in the appliance.

Can you count ?

Hardwire would be from junction box (#1) to terminal lugs on appliance (#2)
Plug and receptacle would be # 1 connection for receptacle, #2 connection at terminal lugs on appliance, #3 friction connection where plug plugs into receptacle, and possibly #4 connection if plug is a separate unit from cord, not molded on. (Even then there’s an electrical connection, it’s just imbedded in plastic.)
Other than breakers, does my water heater require a separate disconnect ? Does my dishwasher? Does my air compressor?

Oh yeah by the way, hardwire g a house range with permanent wiring is considered HACK work imo.

In every measure, hardwire connections, done properly, are superior to plug/receptacle. Go to a commercial kitchen, you think any of their ovens plug into the wall? With a home appliance, a plug is only an accommodation for residential purposes, to suit house wives and girly-men who’d freak out if they had to use a nut driver to un-hook a kitchen range.

 

[Cmreschke]

Can you count ?

Hardwire would be from junction box (#1) to terminal lugs on appliance (#2)
Plug and receptacle would be # 1 connection for receptacle, #2 connection at terminal lugs on appliance, #3 friction connection where plug plugs into receptacle, and possibly #4 connection if plug is a separate unit from cord, not molded on. (Even then there’s an electrical connection, it’s just imbedded in plastic.)
Other than breakers, does my water heater require a separate disconnect ? Does my dishwasher? Does my air compressor?




In every measure, hardwire connections, done properly, are superior to plug/receptacle. Go to a commercial kitchen, you think any of their ovens plug into the wall? With a home appliance, a plug is only an accommodation for residential purposes, to suit house wives and girly-men who’d freak out if they had to use a nut driver to un-hook a kitchen range.

Your water heater is over 300 va? Your dishwasher is over 300 va, or greater than 1/8 hp?
Same question for your compressor? If so then yes definitely.

So your sleaving # 8/4 romex in flex right out of the wall or floor into the range? (So much for flexibility) if that's what your doing then yes your right connection at panel, connection at range, BTW it is copper right? Hope so. Still think cord and plug connection is the PROFFESSIONAL way to go residentially imo.
Commercially installed ranges get a big disconnect right next to them normally for convenience in shutting off equipment, they are normally on wheels so that they can be slid around to clean with thhn in the flex. Have also seen them cord and plug connected.
It's not for the inconvenience of manly men such as yourself that we cord and plug connect them, it's not for the convenience of girly men such as myself, it is best practice, neater application. Also why not check with the manufacturers instructions, which is governed by the listing agency, if it says to install cord (I think it does) then you can't hardwire anyways as your violating the listing. Violate the listing and it then truly becomes HACK.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ive seen lots of commercial ovens(taco bell and mcdonalds) that are cord and plug connected. Only they use the expensive neutrik pin and sleeve connectors.

 

[Whitworth]

Your water heater is over 300 va? Your dishwasher is over 300 va, or greater than 1/8 hp?
Same question for your compressor? If so then yes definitely.

So your sleaving # 8/4 romex in flex right out of the wall or floor into the range? (So much for flexibility) if that's what your doing then yes your right connection at panel, connection at range, BTW it is copper right? Hope so. Still think cord and plug connection is the PROFFESSIONAL way to go residentially imo.
Commercially installed ranges get a big disconnect right next to them normally for convenience in shutting off equipment, they are normally on wheels so that they can be slid around to clean with thhn in the flex. Have also seen them cord and plug connected.
It's not for the inconvenience of manly men such as yourself that we cord and plug connect them, it's not for the convenience of girly men such as myself, it is best practice, neater application. Also why not check with the manufacturers instructions, which is governed by the listing agency, if it says to install cord (I think it does) then you can't hardwire anyways as your violating the listing. Violate the listing and it then truly becomes HACK.

Your arguments are specious.

I have right in front of me the installation manual for a GE electric dryer my wife and I recently purchased. It details electrical connections for both cord and hardwired situations. It in no way states, references or refers to dedicated disconnects. Otherwise, the only thing it mentions unique to hardwire install is a UL listed strain relief for the wiring. I’m happy to post a picture of the page in the manual.

Regarding my range, I said nothing about Romex, or anything about its installation. But, since you bring it up, my range is installed with 8 gauge THHN direct to the junction box.

I think you are using the word “HACK” so often that you doth protest too much. Perhaps you are the hack?

 

[Cmreschke]

The reference to dedicated disconnects is in the nec, article # I referenced above. Thhn from a junction box is still 2 connections, cord and plug connections is still 2 connections ( 3 if you want to count male to female connection via recept) I don't really care,but it's a designed connection.
Yup you guessed it , I'm the hack.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Really?

Must be a small range.

All the ones Ive worked on have been 50a outlet on a 40a or 50a circuit.

Im thinking residential stuff,some bigger commercial stuff could be put on a heavier circuit.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Can you count ?

Hardwire would be from junction box (#1) to terminal lugs on appliance (#2)
Plug and receptacle would be # 1 connection for receptacle, #2 connection at terminal lugs on appliance, #3 friction connection where plug plugs into receptacle, and possibly #4 connection if plug is a separate unit from cord, not molded on. (Even then there’s an electrical connection, it’s just imbedded in plastic.)
Other than breakers, does my water heater require a separate disconnect ? Does my dishwasher? Does my air compressor?




In every measure, hardwire connections, done properly, are superior to plug/receptacle. Go to a commercial kitchen, you think any of their ovens plug into the wall? With a home appliance, a plug is only an accommodation for residential purposes, to suit house wives and girly-men who’d freak out if they had to use a nut driver to un-hook a kitchen range.

Well depending on when your dishwasher was installed it does,but Im still undecided on that rule.
Seems like more of a pita to me in most installs anyway.

 

[checkthisout]

Unless you are leaving the house wiring long enough and bringing it out of the wall and connecting it directly to the appliance then I think a cord and plug is better.

I think that because I would rather have the house wiring screwed to a plug instead of wire nutted to a lead going into the appliance.

If anything, the wire nuts in that high amp circuit are as likely a failure point as an outlet, if not more so.

 

[Cmreschke]

Fyi, in canada, the cec requires cord and plug. No option for hardwiring.

 

[Whitworth]

Fyi, in canada, the cec requires cord and plug. No option for hardwiring.

Why not check on the Republic of the Congo while you're at it?

 

[Cmreschke]

It was a relevant comment, as I'd say 30% of gj members are from the north. Now your just reaching.

 

[Whitworth]

It was a relevant comment, as I'd say 30% of gj members are from the north. Now your just reaching.

In other words, you couldn't find what you were looking for in the NEC, so you went on a fishing expedition.

You're pathetic.

 

[checkthisout]

Hardwiring would also make it a pain the *** to move out to clean behind or service.

Put me on the list of girly men who don't own nut drivers and don't want to have to get tools out to remove the range during spring cleaning.

 

[RayBob58]

Wait,wait,wait. You're supposed to CLEAN back there?

 

[checkthisout]

Wait,wait,wait. You're supposed to CLEAN back there?

Well, unless you want it to get infected.

As far as your stove, if you have enough mice eating the crumbs it probably isn't necessary.

Life is all about balance.