Speaker-Audio Wiring

[mobiledynamics]

Wire gauge is wire gauge....meaning it's the overall OD

OT, but I have 2 reels of 14/4 speaker wire in front of me.
One is ~high strand~ 14 wire. A wild guess is 60-100strands.
Riser Rated

Another is 14/4 Plenum Rated. 19 strand count.
Riddle me.

Plenum cable is always tighter, to the overall OD makeup of the wire.

But when I look at both of these 14/4 wire, the high stand riser rated 14/4 seems almost 2X in overall diameter. What am I missing here.

 

[exmaxima1]

Wire gauge is wire gauge....meaning it's the overall OD

OT, but I have 2 reels of 14/4 speaker wire in front of me.
One is ~high strand~ 14 wire. A wild guess is 60-100strands.
Riser Rated

Another is 14/4 Plenum Rated. 19 strand count.
Riddle me.

Plenum cable is always tighter, to the overall OD makeup of the wire.

But when I look at both of these 14/4 wire, the high stand seems almost 2X in overall diameter. What am I missing here.

Your question is a bit confusing, but I can tell you that wire gauge is based on the overall cross-sectional area of the conductors. Wire gauge is measured in circular mils, and you add up the total of all the strands to determine the final wire gauge. High strand count vs low strand count, it makes no difference in the total current capacity.

And before we get a lot of responses saying that "current flows on the surface and more strands means more current", blah blah, it just ain't so for audio frequencies.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Are you looking at the diameter of just the copper, or the overall diameter of the cable including the insulation?

 

[mobiledynamics]

Overall diameter.
I work with Plenum on the Data Side....so I'm familiar in that the diameter of it is generally tigher/smaller than a Riser rated equivelent.

I suppose maybe the low strand count is a tigher weave. I swear, the riser rated high strand variant looks to be almost 2X in diameter.

 

[ishiboo]

In addition, many a cheap speaker wire is simply not the gauge it says it is.

Also, a lot of wire is listed as "AWG" and not "gauge," when in fact it's SAE not AWG which is 6-12% smaller than AWG.

 

[mobiledynamics]

These are top tier brands

Liberty on the high strand
Belden on the CMP

Per the previous post, I'm aware Plenum jacket is generally smaller/tighter than their CMR counterpart, but this is quite a difference...

 

[BaMaDuDe87]

In addition, many a cheap speaker wire is simply not the gauge it says it is.

Also, a lot of wire is listed as "AWG" and not "gauge," when in fact it's SAE not AWG which is 6-12% smaller than AWG.

This right here x1000. Its funny, you can look at 5 different company's "14 gauge" wire and they might all be different sizes. When they are sizing the wire, some companies like to round up the numbers and some don't round at all. I'm sure some even like to use a formula they created to tell their size.

Overall diameter.

I read this as you are looking at the insulation layer as well. Copper to copper what does it look like? Don't look at insulation thickness.

 

[rattle_snake]

If the 2 wire types have equal total cross sectional area, that is the sum of the x-section of all strands, the one with more stands will have more empty space between the strands and hence larger overall size.

and yes the skin effect is present at audio frequencies.

 

[ssbtech]

I hate wiring and anyone who mislabels it should be put in prison for a very long time.

I have various pieces of automotive power cable. Various lugs and a Greenlee crimper.

It's all guesswork and trial and error to make sure the crimps I use are suitable for the wire as some are thinner walled than others and some 4-gauge cables are marketed as "oversized". Gee, thanks, that helps. How about you just stick to the spec?

 

[MBfreak]

A patently ignorant statement in a post above:
Q And before we get a lot of responses saying that "current flows on the surface and more strands means more current", blah blah, it just ain't so for audio frequencies. UQ.

The skin effect is present even at mains power frequency, and pronounced enough to influence the sizing of conductors in high amp busbars.
Please consult any decent textbook in physics or electrical engineering.

Best regards,

Ola

 

[exmaxima1]

A patently ignorant statement in a post above:
Q And before we get a lot of responses saying that "current flows on the surface and more strands means more current", blah blah, it just ain't so for audio frequencies. UQ.
The skin effect is present even at mains power frequency, and pronounced enough to influence the sizing of conductors in high amp busbars.
Please consult any decent textbook in physics or electrical engineering.

Best regards,

Ola

I love that phrase, "Patently ignorant". It sounds so "high brow", and you just know it's from another culture. In all my years, I've never had an opportunity to use it myself. Cool.

The depth of penetration is far more than the thickness of 14 gauge wire at main frequencies---insignificant for speaker wire at audio frequencies.
And please remember that the skin effect occurs on the surface of the entire bundle of stranded wires---high strand count does nothing if the strands are not insulated from each other. Look up "Litz" wire.

 

[exmaxima1]

If the 2 wire types have equal total cross sectional area, that is the sum of the x-section of all strands, the one with more stands will have more empty space between the strands and hence larger overall size.

and yes the skin effect is present at audio frequencies.

Please make my day and tell me you believe all the Monster Cable hype about low frequencies going thru the thicker strands while the high freqs travel thru the thinner strands. Being in the car audio industry for over 25 years now, that one is still one of the funniest....

 

[thewatusi]

^ ha

I like the people who believe that spending hundreds of dollars on a power cable will make an audible difference.

 

[mobiledynamics]

OT, exmaxima...since you mentioned CA

Any decent CA forums...
Just short of ebay, I have quite a bit of CA stuff I plan to sell off...Alpine F1, Focal BE, custom Genesis mono's in single chassis, etc, etc

 

[exmaxima1]

OT, exmaxima...since you mentioned CA

Any decent CA forums...
Just short of ebay, I have quite a bit of CA stuff I plan to sell off...Alpine F1, Focal BE, custom Genesis mono's in single chassis, etc, etc

Car audio is a dying industry and there is little demand for quality audio among young people. Most have grown up on ipod headphones and have no clue what serious audio gear sounds like. It looks like you have some great components, and I hope they make it to buyers that can appreciate it.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Car audio is a dying industry and there is little demand for quality audio among young people. Most have grown up on ipod headphones and have no clue what serious audio gear sounds like..

Does that mean "boom cars" are dying? One can only hope!

 

[exmaxima1]

Does that mean "boom cars" are dying? One can only hope!

I would say that is true.

 

[ssbtech]

Does that mean "boom cars" are dying? One can only hope!

Sadly no. There's a difference in "boom cars" and quality audio.

 

[pablo94sc]

The only reason you need thicker wire is for more power to get to the speaker, and the only reason for more power is better control of the driver's motor at higher volume levels. Most listening is done using only a couple watts per channel. That said, the best wire I ever used was some Cat5e network cable and strictly because of the RF and EMI suppression characteristics of the cables. This is why most speaker cable is twisted multi-strand; it helps with suppressing outside interference.

TL;DR: Stop A worrying about size and just get some copper wire with good shielding from Lowe's and avoid speaker wires altogether. I suggest Coax or network cable.

 

[ovrrdrive]

Yeah cat5 is great for speaker wire. As long as you limit it to about 10 watts and keep your speakers less than 5' away from the receiver...

I'm sorry but that's pretty terrible advice. I don't mean to be rude but yeah. I would just use regular speaker wire to hook up speakers. Personally I like the stuff that's pretty to look at and overpriced but any wire will work fine. I'd be ok using 14 gauge out to about 50' or so with a moderately powered system. There are charts for recommended size wire at each wattage range but they're usually overkill so I won't bother searching for any to save the wasted space.

Don't overthink it.

Oh and plenum cable is usually run indoors through drop ceilings or any place that has shared ventilation return. It's usually pretty well protected so really thick insulation is a waste of money. That's probably why it's smaller than comparably sized riser wire.

 

[exmaxima1]

TL;DR: Stop A worrying about size and just get some copper wire with good shielding from Lowe's and avoid speaker wires altogether. I suggest Coax or network cable.

Ouch! Never use coax wire for speakers. It is high capacitance and can destroy some amplifiers, in addition to low current capacity. For example, many guitar amps use tubes and many have been blown up over the years by using a standard coaxial guitar cord as a speaker cord.

Use standard or fancy 2-conductor wire for speaker cable. Twisted or straight is fine-----just NOT coax.

 

[pablo94sc]

Yeah cat5 is great for speaker wire. As long as you limit it to about 10 watts and keep your speakers less than 5' away from the receiver...

I'm sorry but that's pretty terrible advice. I don't mean to be rude but yeah.

You are assuming using a single twisted pair per speaker. I've used it a lot when I was really into home audio and had no issues going more than 10' or using 100W+ amplifiers.

 

[ovrrdrive]

Yeah I guess I was in a crappy mood this morning when I replied to that. I'm sure it can be made to work but it's far from ideal or recommended. I try hard not to jump on people on the internet because I think it's silly to argue like that. In a pinch I'm sure it's fine.

Sorry about that.

 

[slomatt]

There are many people who use braided cat5 wire as speaker cables. If you use enough conductors you can create a large AWG equivalent cable, but the downside is that the braid can lead to high capacitance which can damage your amplifier or create an electrical filter depending on the output impedance of your amplifier.

http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html

But, everybody knows the true path to high end audio is to place a stack of quarters on each corner of your speakers and to elevate the speaker cables off the ground using insulators made of unobtanium. Also, be sure to spend a thousand dollars on an audiophile power cable to plug into the cheap romex in your walls.

- Matt

 

[ovrrdrive]

There are many people who use braided cat5 wire as speaker cables. If you use enough conductors you can create a large AWG equivalent cable, but the downside is that the braid can lead to high capacitance which can damage your amplifier or create an electrical filter depending on the output impedance of your amplifier.

http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html

But, everybody knows the true path to high end audio is to place a stack of quarters on each corner of your speakers and to elevate the speaker cables off the ground using insulators made of unobtanium. Also, be sure to spend a thousand dollars on an audiophile power cable to plug into the cheap romex in your walls.

- Matt

That looks like a whole lot of work to me... I wonder what you'd end up with if you braided 56 pairs of speaker wire together like that....?

I guess if you use enough of just about anything it will work. I used to hear an old saying a lot, "If you have enough time and enough money anything is possible..." Or something like that.

 

[BigGMC]

Cat5 or other twisted pair for pre-amp levels (RCA cables) = yes.
Using it to run med/large speakers = absolutely not.

Those in the car audio industry can probably remember the marketing hype behind O2 free cables and how they used the skin effect of AC power to "prove" that higher strand counts equated to the ability to flow more current - unfortunatly, most of that was pushed for amp power wire (DC).