Splice underground or replace?

[HoosierBuddy]

Hey guys,

So 20 years ago, or thereabouts, I had just bought my house and was digging in the yard, and I hit the 240 going to my barn. I knew I hit it when the sparks started flying off my shovel. So, I shut off the breaker and (I recall being in a hurry at the time) taped it all up really well with electrical tape and went on.

Saturday I was out there using my table saw and it came up to speed and then all the power in the barn went off. Checked the subpanel in the barn. Nothing tripped. Checked the 60 AMP breaker that feeds it in the house. Also not tripped.

After scratching my head a bit, I took off the panel cover and checked the outlet side of the breaker in the house and it showed 240 volts. Put that back together and pulled the cover off the subpanel in the barn and checked between the lugs on the line coming in and got 0 volts no matter which legs I checked between.

So...I called my electrician. He feels like the line probably finally got water in it and failed...and he's covered up but he said he'd likely just trench in a new line....but it'll be several days before he can even look at it.

Which gives me time to ponder...and today I'm pondering if I can find a good spot on either side of that place I hit it back in the day, if it would be possible to splice in say 30-feet of new line underground and call it fixed.

Not that I'm trying to put "the man" out of a job...just wishing I could run my table saw without using a 100-foot extension cord.

BTW...if splicing is a possibility, what hardware do you recommend for this? I think it is aluminum wire...but I'll have to double check that.

Phil

 

[ddawg16]

Use a direct bury splice kit....

Here is one example

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...0-AWG-25-per-case?N=5432591+4294891155&rt=rud

A lot cheaper than trenching

 

[CNGsaves]

How long is the run ?? What amps desired in shop ??

What wire is in ground now ??

I'd bite bullet and put in MHF Al 2-2-2-4 in conduit since you're digging anyway.

 

[doctordirt]

Get someone with a fault finder and they can pin point the spot unless you remember. Had something very similar happen to me. 300 foot run and only 120 volts, fault finder pin pointed spot 7 feet down, dug it up, spliced in new 18" wire with proper underground splice kit. 240 volts again to the shop. Mine must have been nicked upon installation or rock had jeopardized the insulation. Good luck.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Thanks guys.

The run is about 100 feet the way it's routed now. If we redo it, we'll end up shortening it up a little...it might be 75 feet or so.

I'll take the junction box where it comes up at the barn apart tonight and check the wire size. (Might be good to check and make sure that's not where the problem is now that I'm thinking about it!)

I don't remember exactly where I hit it. I know approximately where. That's where I came up with my 30-foot thing. If I ran that much, I'm sure I could get on both sides of where I hit it without having to try to strip out all that cable. As hard as the ground is right now, I feel like it would be tough to strip it out without damaging it further.

I have it stuck in my mind that it must be related to hitting it with a shovel...but the more I think about it...there's no reason it has to be, is there?

Phil

 

[theoldwizard1]

Similar situation, but the previous owner had buried the line about 6" below grade and I was changing the grade to prevent rain water from running into the garage. I had to dig up the line almost all the way back to the house. It came out from under a 10x15 deck at about 18" deep and got shallower. I got 2 splice its from HD and about 5' of 10/3 UF. That double wall heat shrink tubing was so thick I had to use a propane torch !

 

[walrus]

Listed splice kits are really good, the heat shrink tubing is as good as impervious. I wouldn't hesitate to splice it if you know where the break is

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Thats why I do underground work in pipe.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

The wire is #4 aluminum. Comes off a 60 amp breaker. The previous owner had a 240 v welder on it. I don't have anything that isn't 120v. 10 inch bandsaw is the biggest draw.

Phil

 

[nick2010tundra]

I would replace it, its 20 years old and has been leaking for years obviously. Also if it shows dead zero at your sub panel but never tripped a breaker, that tells me that it completely broke free, wonder how long it was shorting to ground ( That's costing you money) The meter sees ground as a load and keeps sending power until it finally clears itself.) A little background if your following me, I am a lineman and I have seen wire burn through solid rock on entrances going into a customers house, ***** in the winter, especially the little old lady that can't afford the cost of someone digging up her frozen ground.
If it was my shed, I would run new and put it in pipe. That way in another 50 years you can haul your old out and pull a new one in. Come to think of it, you never see wire in pipe damaged. So put new wire in pipe and never worry again

 

[Norcal]

Thats why I do underground work in pipe.

Whole lot less goes wrong with pipe, this thread is just more proof.

 

[nadogail]

When you said Aluminum I immediately thought "How is he going to remove the oxide from the conductors?".

Next, all the splice kits I have seen at big box stores were for copper, and not suitable for Aluminum.

This makes me recommend replacement with copper.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I would replace it, its 20 years old and has been leaking for years obviously. Also if it shows dead zero at your sub panel but never tripped a breaker, that tells me that it completely broke free, wonder how long it was shorting to ground ( That's costing you money) The meter sees ground as a load and keeps sending power until it finally clears itself.) A little background if your following me, I am a lineman and I have seen wire burn through solid rock on entrances going into a customers house, ***** in the winter, especially the little old lady that can't afford the cost of someone digging up her frozen ground.
If it was my shed, I would run new and put it in pipe. That way in another 50 years you can haul your old out and pull a new one in. Come to think of it, you never see wire in pipe damaged. So put new wire in pipe and never worry again

It would actually be the transformer sending the power but i got what u meant.

Ive seen similar happen before.

Had a customer with a rental unit that kept shocking the tenants every time they touched metal water line.

I discovered that the water line was energized and it hadnt tripped any breakers because the water line wasnt bonded to the neutral bar in the main service panel. Their meter was spinning like crazy too. After i figured out which breaker was feeding the offending circuit, i turned it off and watched their meter slow down.

This is a prime example of why all metal piping and metal structure in buildings needs to be bonded.

 

[rsanter]

dig it up and check it, see what the condition is and see if that is the fault location

if you splice it then use an official underground splice and not just a tape up job. the other thing is that I prefer to have it in a ground box verses a direct bury. yes I know there are splices rated for that but I am just saying my preference

bob

 

[HoosierBuddy]

dig it up and check it, see what the condition is and see if that is the fault location

if you splice it then use an official underground splice and not just a tape up job. the other thing is that I prefer to have it in a ground box verses a direct bury. yes I know there are splices rated for that but I am just saying my preference

bob

I still haven't heard from my electrician. I'm going to try to find the bad spot and see what it looks like. The ground is so freaking hard right now...I just hope I can dig it up without damaging it further.

Phil

 

[cowboyjosh]

If your gonna dig to find the failed repair from days gone by, might as well just spend that time trenching in a new line.

Suppose where you nicked the wire 20 years ago isn't where the failure is today. That would ****.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

I managed to find the issue.

It was NOT where I hit it with a shovel damaged the insulation 20 years ago. It was where the crew crossed it with trencher while installing a gas line 9 years ago when we built an addition to the house. The repair was pretty much "amateur hour". It was the third place I dug up to check.

My electrician came out and spliced it back together with the shrink-tube style splice kits. Not saying it will last forever, but hopefully it will go another few years. He charged me $108 to splice it...so maybe that's "good money after bad"...but at least its fixed for now. Note that was 6 splice kits plus about 3 feet of new #4. It appears they cut out the section the trencher mangled...so it couldn't be done with just 3 splices. The neutral was the only splice that had actually failed...but I had him replace all of them on principal.

Phil

 

[simpler=better]

I managed to find the issue.

It was NOT where I hit it with a shovel damaged the insulation 20 years ago. It was where the crew crossed it with trencher while installing a gas line 9 years ago when we built an addition to the house. The repair was pretty much "amateur hour". It was the third place I dug up to check.

My electrician came out and spliced it back together with the shrink-tube style splice kits. Not saying it will last forever, but hopefully it will go another few years. He charged me $108 to splice it...so maybe that's "good money after bad"...but at least its fixed for now. Note that was 6 splice kits plus about 3 feet of new #4. It appears they cut out the section the trencher mangled...so it couldn't be done with just 3 splices. The neutral was the only splice that had actually failed...but I had him replace all of them on principal.

Phil

If you get power in the barn and it doesn't leak, that's money well spent

 

[The FIB]

Thats why I do underground work in pipe.

PVC pipe is so cheap and easy to run that I don't understand why someone wouldn't use it.

 

[sberry]

I agree, keep this guys number for a 108$ call.