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Splitting a 220v

FMC1959

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Montreal, Canada / Upstate NY
I moved into an old house 3 years ago and now redoing the kitchen. On one wall, there was a permanent heater 220v, which I removed; house heated by forced air furnace. The 220v box is there, where cupboards are going to go.

This house was built in the year 1900, most walls are layers of plank wood, not easy or at all possible at times to snake wire through walls. What I would like to do is raise the height on the 220v to over the counter height, not difficult, but want it to be 120v. The wire is a 3 wire + ground. Probably the most legal (or closest to legal) as to code would be to change the breaker to a 15 single pole and cap the red on each end.

Plan A - What I would prefer to do is keep the 2 pole 30 amp breaker. Split the white and ground and setup a 120v with the red (general counter outlet) and another 120v with the black (for a dedicated microwave outlet).

Pretty sure this would NOT be up to code. But in the real world, would this be a hazard or should it work fine?

Plan B - If the 2 pole 30 amp is a bad idea for the spilt 120v outlets, what about splitting at the box also? The white and ground, split at the box and each going to their own 15 amp single pole breaker, and each of these would receive, one the black and the other one the red. Both options are to avoid tearing up lots of wall to snake a 2nd wire/cable.

Plan B, I do not believe is up to code either, but aside from sharing the white and ground, the outlets would have their own dedicated breaker.

I do need at least two independent circuit outlets.

I would prefer plan a if it is not considered a fire or other kind of hazard. If Plan A is bad, then I will buy 2 15 amp single pole breakers and go plan B.

Of course if both ideas have their [serious] hazards, then I will have to (Plan C) run a 2nd cable for the 2nd outlet. (assuming that using the 220v wire with a capped red on each end , I can keep). Otherwise, God forbid, Plan D would be to run 2 cables [gasp!]

BTW - this house has all kind of electrical...nightmares?...where some outlets have no grounds, lots of old paper covered wiring, wrong colors...whites running out of the breaker, black going to the common/neutral bar. I am slowly trying to fix things as I go, but this house has lots of of work that needs to be done.
 
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sparky 1971

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Central Iowa
If what you have is black, red, white, and ground it will work, but you will need to use either a 15 or 20 amp two pole breaker or single poles with a handle tie. Its a MWBC. Black, white, ground for one circuit and red, white, ground for the other. Neutral (white) and ground will be common between the two circuits. What is the wire size? I'm going to assume #10 since it's currently a 30 amp breaker. If that's the case, or its #12, you can use a 20 amp breaker. If it's #14, use a 15, but the odds of that are pretty low. Also, the current box needs to remain accessible. If it can't be moved due to the wires being too short cut an access into the back of the cabinet and then put a blank p!aye over it.
 

u2slow

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BC
I had a similar abandoned #10awg/3c cable to a box in my kitchen. I turned it into 2 circuits on a mwbc on individual 20A breakers (no breaker tie needed in Canada if serving lights or non-split receptacles.)

Like @sparky 1971 says, if the wires are short, leave a blanked-off junction box below counter height and extend from there.
 

Zeke

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Aug 13, 2009
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Long Beach CA, the sewer by the sea.
I assume this is to provide 120v receptacles in the kitchen. You will need GFCI protection. I'm not an expert but I believe you will be limited to one GFCI per leg and no downstream recep's on the load side when in a MWBC. If you replace the breaker with a GFCI double pull I think you can run more recep's on each circuit. My point is this should be studied before digging in.

Also, since any junction box is likely to be under a counter, in a cabinet and accesssable, you can't set up a little sub panel. If the wire was #10 that could have been a possibility. Why do I even bring that up? Maybe an easier way to deal with GFCI's.

Me, I'd want to know more.
 
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FMC1959

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Feb 9, 2014
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2,319
Location
Montreal, Canada / Upstate NY
I assume this is to provide 120v receptacles in the kitchen. You will need GFCI protection. I'm not an expert but I believe you will be limited to one GFCI per leg and no downstream recep's on the load side when in a MWBC. If you replace the breaker with a GFCI double pull I think you can run more recep's on each circuit. My point is this should be studied before digging in.

Also, since any junction box is likely to be under a counter, in a cabinet and accesssable, you can't set up a little sub panel. If the wire was #10 that could have been a possibility. Why do I even bring that up? Maybe an easier way to deal with GFCI's.

Me, I'd want to know more.
An electrician once explained to me that gfci's do not require a ground to function. What a gfci does is monitor the current going out on the black/hot wire, versus what is coming back on the white/neutral wire; the slightest difference and it trips.

If I do a mwbc, does this affect the function of the gfci? If the first recep in the line is a gfci, and functions properly, then aren't any receps down line also protected?
If Canada, only if within 1.5 mtrs of water

Are electrical codes national, but then at the state and provincial level, they can have differences? I could be wrong, but in Quebec I thought it was 1 meter from water. In my situation, it does not matter, water is a good 10 feet away.
 
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dave*99

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May 5, 2009
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Coastal NJ
I assume this is to provide 120v receptacles in the kitchen. You will need GFCI protection. I'm not an expert but I believe you will be limited to one GFCI per leg and no downstream recep's on the load side when in a MWBC. If you replace the breaker with a GFCI double pull I think you can run more recep's on each circuit. My point is this should be studied before digging in.
You can run protected downstream receptacles. Here is how:
Run the MWBC into a junction box. Use a 2 gang box and install 2 GFCIs.
Leave each of those GFCIs with a 2 conductor WG cable connected to the load side to your downstream receptacles.

OR........
Split the MWBC in a junction box into 2 separate 2 conductor WG runs. Make the first receptacle on the 2 runs each a GFCI and connect subsequent receptacles to the load side.

The point is the neutrals have to stay separated after the GFCIs.
The neutrals can be shared upstream of the GFCIs
 

u2slow

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Nov 20, 2011
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BC
Are electrical codes national, but then at the state and provincial level, they can have differences? I could be wrong, but in Quebec I thought it was 1 meter from water. In my situation, it does not matter, water is a good 10 feet away.
CSA routinely publishes a new CEC (every 3-5 years). Each province decides on its own when to adopt it, along with their own modifications (ammendments).
 
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FMC1959

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Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
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Location
Montreal, Canada / Upstate NY
You can run protected downstream receptacles. Here is how:
Run the MWBC into a junction box. Use a 2 gang box and install 2 GFCIs.
Leave each of those GFCIs with a 2 conductor WG cable connected to the load side to your downstream receptacles.

OR........
Split the MWBC in a junction box into 2 separate 2 conductor WG runs. Make the first receptacle on the 2 runs each a GFCI and connect subsequent receptacles to the load side.

The point is the neutrals have to stay separated after the GFCIs.
The neutrals can be shared upstream of the GFCIs
Makes sense, thanks
 
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