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Spot welding with a MIG

djkeev

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Looking for some advice / help on spot welding, plug welding whatever he proper term for it is.

Welding in new floor pans on an air cooled VW. I drilled holes spaced about 1" apart to weld onto a thicker lip to hold the pans.

I started with a 1/8" hole, moved up to a 3/16 and then 1/4" all with the same result. The welds don't hold to the lip!

I start in the center of the hole on the lip and hold the tip as I squeeze the trigger, I count till about five, swirl it a little to hit the new pan and stop. It cools and POP it breaks loose! The metal is clean, I ground it off until it was shiny! I believe it's me, my lack of knowledge and experience. A few have held, but most do not.

I've tried fast wire, high heat, slow wire high heat, slow wire low heat etc. I am using .023 mild steel wire, black stone brand. It's worked well on welding like thickness panels together. The gas is an argon mix running 22CFH.

The welder is a Hobart Handler 140.

Any advice? I'm doing something wrong but don't know what.

Thanks for any and all help.

Dave
 
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Tim G

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Make the hole a little bigger so you can see what you are doing.
Start by making a puddle of weld in the center of the hole,THEN run the bead around the edge of the hole in the top sheet.
Not a bad idea to take some of the scrap from when you trimmed the parts to practice with until you get it right,try breaking apart the "good" welds with a chisel,you should tear the weld nugget out of the sheetmetal before the two sheets come apart.
Good Luck!
 

NUTTSGT

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If your holding and counting to 5, you maybe getting the floor pan too hot. As it's cooling and shrinking back down is probably when it's popping lose.

What you may need to do is more of a zap zap zap instead of pull and counting to five. Try not to build so much heat into the metal.
 

b-body-bob

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You say it's two different gauges of steel, are you putting enough heat into the weld to get penetration into the thicker part?
 
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djkeev

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No idea, but I'll come watch and drink some beers. I miss my bug.

Sure! Come on by! I've got a beer fridge in the garage, well the top shelf is at least, the wife feels that it can be used for food storage as well! :dunno:
I'll warn you first......

It's a 74 Super Vert, not sure how you'll feel about hanging with a Fat Chick!

Dave
 
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djkeev

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Are you using a flat piece of brass on the back side of the hole?

No, the hole is in the thinner floor pan, it sets on Top of a much thicker ledge that hasn't any holes, it then gets welded to the top of the ledge, a backer paddle isn't needed.
At the factory they were electrically spot welded with really BIG welder arms!

Thanks anyway!

Dave
 
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djkeev

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If your holding and counting to 5, you maybe getting the floor pan too hot. As it's cooling and shrinking back down is probably when it's popping lose.

What you may need to do is more of a zap zap zap instead of pull and counting to five. Try not to build so much heat into the metal.

It is adhering to the floor an hole, not to the thicker ledge.

Dave
 

blacK20

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I agree with NUTTSGT. 5 secs on the trigger imo is too long. If you don't have much splatter on startup, 2-3 secs on the trigger should work better. Then stop, take a breath, zap again, repeat.
 
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djkeev

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Make the hole a little bigger so you can see what you are doing.
Start by making a puddle of weld in the center of the hole,THEN run the bead around the edge of the hole in the top sheet.
Not a bad idea to take some of the scrap from when you trimmed the parts to practice with until you get it right,try breaking apart the "good" welds with a chisel,you should tear the weld nugget out of the sheetmetal before the two sheets come apart.
Good Luck!


Yeah, I'll try a 5/16 hole. Practice piece, yep, coulda, woulda, shoulda, didn't!
It's too much fastened to remove it but not so much fastened that it's secure!

Lesson learned!

Thanks though!

Dave
 
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djkeev

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You say it's two different gauges of steel, are you putting enough heat into the weld to get penetration into the thicker part?


Ding! Ding! Ding!

This is my problem exactly!

What's the advice? More heat? Faster wire? More heat, slower wire? Bigger hole to allow weld to penetrate thicker lip without burning the new pan??????

Dave
 
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djkeev

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I agree with NUTTSGT. 5 secs on the trigger imo is too long. If you don't have much splatter on startup, 2-3 secs on the trigger should work better. Then stop, take a breath, zap again, repeat.

Little to no splatter, I'm using a shielding gas so splatter is minimal.

It isn't melting into the thicker ledge before it fills the hole and starts burning away the pan.

Thanks for the help

Dave
 

rsanter

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for me the 1/4 in hole is fine
you weld the seam between the edge of the hole and the pan you are attaching to.
you just make a little circle and the weld should come out looking like a little flower with the pedals overlapping each other a bit.
as long as you feed speed and voltage is correct

are you sure the pan is clean enough?

bob
 

MP&C

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When I plug weld I use a letter A bit (.228 I believe?) and set the machine hot and wire feed a bit faster. If you have thicker panels on the bottom then the welder should be set for that, not the sheet metal floors. As long as the welder is set hot enough to penetrate adequately, you don't need a big hole (~5/16) 1/4 or under should work.

If it isn't sticking to clean metal you need more heat. If it tries to burn away the floor pan above, try more wire feed.

Try it and report results please...
 
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djkeev

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When I plug weld I use a letter A bit (.228 I believe?) and set the machine hot and wire feed a bit faster. If you have thicker panels on the bottom then the welder should be set for that, not the sheet metal floors. As long as the welder is set hot enough to penetrate adequately, you don't need a big hole (~5/16) 1/4 or under should work.

If it isn't sticking to clean metal you need more heat. If it tries to burn away the floor pan above, try more wire feed.

Try it and report results please...

Thanks for the tips!! I'll give it a go this evening and let you know how it works. I suspected that the heat may be too cool.


Dave
 

fergus

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If you've got two different thicknesses of metal you are working with, start your puddle on the thick material and "walk"' the puddle into the thinner stuff just long enough to get penetration, then back to thick, walk to thin, etc as you fill the hole. At least, that's how I do it.
 

koditten

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If your holding and counting to 5, you maybe getting the floor pan too hot. As it's cooling and shrinking back down is probably when it's popping lose.

What you may need to do is more of a zap zap zap instead of pull and counting to five. Try not to build so much heat into the metal.

This. If you are spot welding, there is no need to "carry" a weld bead. Just keep quickly pulling the trigger until the hole is filled with weld media. You will be grinding it smooth after you are done, or not if it cant be seen.

This type of welding is kind of difficult when you are using an auto shade helmet. I don't even bother with the helmet. I just shield the weld with my free hand. It is more of a feel and sound type welding vs visual welding.

I do both structual steel welding and vehicle welding with the same rig. I might drop the amperage and wire speed 10%. betweem the both. this type of welding is all technique.

KO
 
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Brad54

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I'm with the other guys here--you need to set the machine to get good penetration on the thicker metal. I believe what's happening is that you're getting a puddle of melted metal (the filler wire) that ends up sitting on top of your ledge--it didn't get hot enough to penetrate the ledge.
Then you're filling the hole on your patch panel. When it cools, the filler material is bonded to the patch panel, but not bonded well enough to the ledge under it. It cools and pulls away from the ledge.

Turn the heat up, and turn the wire speed up just enough so it feeds into the molten puddle. Get the puddle flowing well, then little circles with the MIG gun until you hit the edges of the hole in your patch panel. Make sure you go into the patch panel enough to get a good "bite" on the panel.

Another key is to make sure the patch panel is laying tight to the ledge under it. I have a couple 25-pound weight lifting plates I lay on floors when I am putting in patch panels. I stand one up on edge (they're octagonal, so they'll stand on edge), right next to the hole I'm plug-welding, so it's tight against the piece under the patch panel.

-Brad
 

Beaumont67

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djkeev - is your new floor pan to thicker floor channel fitting good ?
Also, are you starting your spot welds with the copper barrel of the mig gun resting on the patch panel, to start...then pull the trigger for 2-3 seconds...rotating the wire in a "C" fashion ?

I suspect with your poor lack of weld penetration (even though you keep turning up the Hobart heat setting), your starting from a slight tip gap that gets pulled away even further...and as the wire may be coming out to fast...if you are automatically forcing the gun tip away, to compensate...your getting caught in a "catch 22" as your mig wire is just spooling up on the top of the weld deposit...and not burning in the base metal / if that makes any sense...your 5 second spot weld is just puddling on top...higher and higher (nothing is getting remotely through).
- then you might be trying to play catch up, thereby reducing your tip gap finally and forcing it...but your new weld deposit, is much too cold and the proper weld deposit in liquid state...is long gone, and nothing flows right with practically zero weld penetration

I experienced this exact problem...with my cheap 15-20 year old helmet, when I couldn't see enough (wearing bifocal glasses)...and my former Arc and Oxy/Acy. technigues, wasn't helping me overcome my mig shortfalls much.
- once I actually went to a bodyshop and watch a licensed friend spot weld drilled holes...I saw the error in my mig inexperience techniques
- now resting the gun barrel tip directly on the patchpanel hole edge to start...with a slight rotation of my wrist, to fill the hole in an arc move / finally gave me nice flatter weld deposits, that was very strong

And don't cool your welds with water, (causing more stress buildup in sheetmetal)...use compressed air or natural cooling to the hand touch instead.
Plus always use side cutters to trim your mig wire shorter and clean of the tinny stup*d solidified ball (on the end)...every time / your welder is not setup for this wide variation...in diameter of wire.
 
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MoonRise

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A rosette weld (aka a MIG 'spot weld' aka a 'plug weld') is done, at a basic level, just like any other weld.

Set/adjust the weld parameters to get a 'proper' weld. That means enough 'power' to melt properly into the piece(s) being welded together without instantly just blasting a hole right through things.

A rosette weld is pretty much just a circular form of a lap weld. So, just like a 'regular' lap weld, adjust the weld parameters so that you can achieve the desired penetration into the layer/sheet underneath and not instantly blast a hole right through it and still have enough power/heat to melt the edge of the hole in the upper layer/sheet.

The only real complication you have introduced into this situation is by having different thicknesses in the two sheets/layers. If they are just a little bit different in thickness it's not too bad, it gets a bit more difficult to do when the thicknesses are very different from one another (say, 20 ga sheetmetal onto 1/2 inch plate takes some practice :D ).

Hole size in the top sheet/layer can be anywhere from about 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch or so. That usually isn't so critical.

OK, you say the top sheet/layer (with the hole) is the thinner one. That's good, as you should be able to set the weld parameters for the thicker bottom sheet/layer and just let the puddle then wash onto the edges of the top sheet/layer.

You also have to make SURE that you clamp or otherwise hold the two sheets together when you want to make the weld. Line everything up and then clamp it (or stick a heavy weight onto the top layer if gravity will let you use that to hold the layers together). You really can't weld air. :)

You can use a relatively small hole in the thinner top sheet/layer, and then just make a weld puddle right in the middle of the hole onto the slightly thicker bottom sheet/layer. That will probably let you get a puddle that first melts/fuses/penetrates into the bottom sheet/layer and quickly fills the hole and then melts the edges of the hole. Done.

If you use a slightly bigger diameter hole (1/4, 5/16 or 3/8 is plenty big there) in the top sheet/layer, then you have to do more of a lap weld around the edge of the hole and then once that is all melted/fused together you do the swirl towards the center of the (formerly there) hole and fill it in. Done.

I kind of like doing rosette welds. They seem kind of 'fun' to me. :thumbup:

Step one with ALL manual welding is, you have to be able to SEE the weld puddle! Not the bright light of the arc itself, but the puddle of molten metal being formed by the arc.

Step two is to use the correct weld parameters. 100+ amps on sheetmetal is just going to quickly blow a hole right through things. 30 amps is barely going to be enough to melt/fuse into 'thicker' sheetmetal (16 gauge?), although the MIG filler wire electrode will still melt pretty much just fine.

Which is why MIG (GMAW) is notorious for making a weld that looks OK, but is just sitting on top of the base metal. Classic "inadequate penetration", aka "inadequate fusion" aka "cold lap". The filler wire melted just fine but there was not enough heat to properly melt into the base/parent material. So the pretty little weld 'bead' is just sitting on top of the base metal and not melted into it. :willy_nil

Clean the metal (no rust, grease, oil, paint, mill scale, mustard, etc, etc), clamp the joint, use 'proper' parameters, make weld while watching the weld puddle and not the bright arc.

C25 shielding gas and 0.023/0.025 wire should be fine to weld sheetmetal with a 120V MIG welder.

For parameters, step one is find out the thickness of the thicker metal piece. Then use the welder's parameter chart and set the machine. Do a practice weld or two and then maybe do a little bit of fine adjustment is desired.

For the voltage setting, too low of a voltage (for the selected wire feed speed) and the wire will 'stub' into the work and push back the gun. Too high of a voltage (for the selected WFS) and the arc is unstable and there is excess spatter (parameters may be nudging into globular transfer mode instead of short-circuit transfer mode). Set voltage (for that WFS) halfway between the two extremes.

For the WFS, more WFS = more amps = more heat/power. Turn the WFS too high and you may not have enough voltage for that WFS and then you get wire stubbing (gun pushes back from the workpiece as you try to weld). Turn the WFS too low (for the voltage setting) and you hvae too much voltage for that WFS and you get an unstable arc and too much spatter.

For GMAW, the parameters all have to work together. The shielding gas type (C25 or plain CO2 for steel), the wire electrode diameter (0.023/0.025 vs 0.030. vs 0.035 solid steel wire are most common for the 'small' machines), the voltage setting, and the WFS setting all have to work together.

Do some practice welds FIRST. :lol_hitti
 

vpogv

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You also have to make SURE that you clamp or otherwise hold the two sheets together when you want to make the weld.

Beat me to it but thinking the pan and tunnel lip are together and them actually being clamped down are 2 different things. My welds popped when doing the pans on my chassis just as yours did. Going to almost guarantee that's your problem.
 

MP&C

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It is adhering to the floor an hole, not to the thicker ledge.

Dave

This would seem to indicate a lack of heat. Where clamping is adviseable, not having clamped the panel down should not pull the weld from the base metal had there been sufficient heat.
 

Murphy4570

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If you've got two different thicknesses of metal you are working with, start your puddle on the thick material and "walk"' the puddle into the thinner stuff just long enough to get penetration, then back to thick, walk to thin, etc as you fill the hole. At least, that's how I do it.

That's how I do it as well. You keep the amps about right for the thicker metal, start the bead on the thick stuff, and let the puddle flow to the thin stuff. You don't direct the torch directly onto the thin metal, you let the puddle do the work for you.

This is what i do when I am welding good metal to old thin rusty pipe, after I clean off the rust of course. If you are tack welding, you only want to weld for 1 second at a time or so. I do this when welding really thin metal, or **** welding. Zap zap zap, right on down the line. I usually use a FCAW welder too, and those are easier to burn through metal with.
 

mambo

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i would say not enough heat. turn the power and feed speed up. what you are doing is just sealing up the hole. what you need to be doing is melting the base plate then letting the upper layer fuse in. open the hole up to 3/8 (spot weld drills come in 3/8 and you would generally plug through the hole these leave ;).......) and turn the heat and feed up until you get good penetration on the base layer. i would say you can plug weld like this in under 3 seconds for sure.
 
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Nick M

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Set the voltage to 4, don't be afraid of burning the thin stuff when doing something like this. Also I always put the ground clamp on the thicker base material when starting a panel with a weld like that...

However, I also believe in ghosts...
 
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djkeev

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Thanks guys, I set the heat high enough to penetrate the thicker lip, made 1/4" hole and wedged the pan tight down on the lip. Its not perfect yet but MUCH better! :)

I'll do some more and am sure will improve!

Dave
 

THE TOOL

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Try pulse welding or spot welding till you fill up the hole and give it a chance to cool off you wont burn the pan that way .
 

vince01

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Hi, according to a review ive read, its important to have gas whilst the weld is cooling, as the arc stops gas should still be flowing, i understand, spot timers have this facility included.
 

Joe69

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My buddy bought a Hobart 140, and it was set up for flux core. He had fits using gas, until he reversed the polarity. His welds looked fine, but would break easily. Check your polarity.

Joe
 

tlmartin84

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Listen to MPC...........

The only way I have had much luck doing the EXACT same thing is to drill a much larger hole (3/8") in the thin metal. Start right in the middle of the thicker lower piece and make a pinwheel pattern until you just catch the inner edge of the thinner metal. It allows you to get the thicker piece much hotter to get some penetration.

BTW did I say that I have done the EXACT same thing, I also had a Hobart 140, 75/25, 3rd Amp setting (my model had 1-4, 4 being too hot). .030 wire to get good penetration into the lower, and about 25-30 on the speed. Start with slow movement to get the middle hot, and then really whip around the thin stuff fast or you will blow through.

I bought one of those hole punchers (3/16) and it sits on my shelf. All it is ever used for is to crimp an edge.
 

lakeroadster

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For future reference... FWIW:

A spot weld would mean two pieces, neither with a hole in them, being welded together. This is typically a resistance weld, like factory spot welds.

A plug weld would be two pieces, one with a hole, one without, being welded together.

This thread is about Plug welding with a MIG, not Spot welding.
 

twertsy

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Beat me to it but thinking the pan and tunnel lip are together and them actually being clamped down are 2 different things. My welds popped when doing the pans on my chassis just as yours did. Going to almost guarantee that's your problem.

Absolutely. I second the above "guarantee." You need to have it clamped as tight together as humanly possible or they will pop every time. Get two clamps on either side of the hole, as close as humanly possible without welding the clamp to your floor.
 

MP&C

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If the panels pull apart, regardless of how tightly they were clamped, you have insufficient heat into the thicker (base) metal. Period. A good weld will not pull apart simply because the panels have a slight gap between them. He is doing PLUG welds here, not a resistance spot weld...


Now that's not saying clamping the panels together tightly isn't preferred. But weld failure here has nothing to do with clamping and everything to do with insufficient heat.
 
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