Spray Foam/Condensation Beware

[karoc]

I have watch lot of Youtubes on building Pole Barn, I have watch lot Youtubes on spray foam and metal roofs and condensation problems. Today I came across this Youtube on what will happen if the spray foam is not done correctly and to 1" minimum thickness.

 

[yeldogt]

I have watch lot of Youtubes on building Pole Barn, I have watch lot Youtubes on spray foam and metal roofs and condensation problems. Today I came across this Youtube on what will happen if the spray foam is not done correctly and to 1" minimum thickness.

It does not look very thick? Where is the house -- A quick look does not show.

It looks like closed foam. In some areas -- you can't do flash and batt w/o going very thick wall

Also -- you can't have a sealed house w/ foam and do drywall and start to finish w/o heat. The house will condense ... actually any tight house will. Too much water in the building materials.

With a flash and batt -- it must be thick enough and you must control condensation when building.

If the roof has sheathing -- the metal is not a problem. I have done barns ... but not a new pole barn -- so if he sprayed the roof metal directly with foam -- I have never done ... so I can't comment.

If the foam is too thin and he agreed to that. It's not the foams problem ... If your wearing a coat inside a house with drywall .... it's too cold !

I always use 5/8 -- but ..that's not really a big thing

 

[karoc]

Watch all he will explain what went wrong,,from what I gather the foam is good just to thin in area's and miss some spots such as behind pole and girth.

 

[yeldogt]

Watch all he will explain what went wrong,,from what I gather the foam is good just to thin in area's and miss some spots such as behind pole and girth.

I did watch the linked video and I see where he says it's thin.

Missing some spots a bit and having some thin areas is not going to sink the ship ... where is the condensation coming from. It is high humidity inside the building. Humidity = water. Where is that coming from .... people and the building process is where.

My guess had he turned up the heat and kept it going as the drywall went up and finished he would have been fine. Find it had to believe a foam contractor did a whole project under what's recommended in the area .. but .... always possible.

I have never had a builder not tell me that the heat has to be working and it must be turned up when finishing.

 

[V8BoatBuilder]

Very curious to see how this turns out, I hope he keeps posting.

Will insurance pay out?

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'll never understand why people use "open cell" foam ! The best example of open cell foam is a SPONGE ! They hold lots of water.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

I didn't watch the whole video. I do have a couple questions. Where is this building?
Where is the vapor barrier?

 

[M-technik-3]

While I don't see the op's breath I wonder what the temperature is in the building. High humidity inside as well as outside is going to affect all of it.

 

[walrus]

I have watch lot of Youtubes on building Pole Barn, I have watch lot Youtubes on spray foam and metal roofs and condensation problems. Today I came across this Youtube on what will happen if the spray foam is not done correctly and to 1" minimum thickness.

1 inch won't do it in Maine, needs to be R10 to keep wall from going thru dew point here.

Hard to tell on video but is that fiberglass discolored from mold or has been air been moving thru carrying dust into it ?

 

[yeldogt]

1 inch won't do it in Maine, needs to be R10 to keep wall from going thru dew point here.

Hard to tell on video but is that fiberglass discolored from mold or has been air been moving thru carrying dust into it ?

I did a heavy 2" .... really 2.5 (walls). This was in NJ .... I had to add the Batt to reach the state energy code .... thought this was crazy as 2" was R14 if using R 7 inch.

So we did the 2.5 and compressed the fiberglass a bit in the 2x6 wall .... IMO the spray is doing all the work.

 

[WisJim]

I had my new building spray foamed this winter but they had to have temperature over 20F to do it, and we had a warm spell above freezing so it all went well. When it was done, a small portable heater kept it warm enough for the drywall, and I ran a dehumidifier all the time while the drywall was being done. It sucked a lot of water over a couple of weeks.

 

[yeldogt]

I didn't watch the whole video. I do have a couple questions. Where is this building?
Where is the vapor barrier?

He is building a pole building as a living space.

From the comments in the linked video it looks like he removed the video for the spray foam ..... so we can't see that

I'm also seeing another video where it looks like the Tyvex type product was attached to the framing w/o any sheathing. Have heard of this process -- I don't know how it works in the real world. I guess the siding goes on and the foam is applied to the house wrap. The foam must push out all over the place -- would think.

Personally -- I would never "not" use wall and roof sheathing for a building used as a living space. Also see plastic --- I never use plastic. I see plastic under the wood ceiling .... don't understand ..maybe he used blown in insulation.

The VB debate is interesting ..... with a thin coat of foam and thick wall with fiberglass I would use a VB (they are technically a vapor retarder). Not plastic.

With full foam there is no need for a VB ..... but with thiner foam the inside layer of foam is no different vs the inside layer of sheathing ... there is potential lower temp in very cold climates. The VB will do no harm.

 

[yeldogt]

I had my new building spray foamed this winter but they had to have temperature over 20F to do it, and we had a warm spell above freezing so it all went well. When it was done, a small portable heater kept it warm enough for the drywall, and I ran a dehumidifier all the time while the drywall was being done. It sucked a lot of water over a couple of weeks.

I had mine (whole house) in the mid 60's --- I know they can do the foam in colder now. Did not know it was as low as 20 degrees. With my higher temps I had no real humidity issues. I did crank up the radiant and open the windows for about 1/2 hour on the first weekend.

It looks like this has been a long build -- so it's hard to know how "wet" all the building products were. There can still be a lot of water in a slab w/ plastic under it until it's undercover and the heat is on .. especially when it winter and no sun.

 

[Voi]

I didn't watch the whole video. I do have a couple questions. Where is this building?
Where is the vapor barrier?

I believe he's in Iowa. I watched the video on my phone and in the few closeups it appears to be closed cell foam so that was likely intended to be the vapor barrier.

Will be interesting to hear the whole story.

In another video it appears they are putting a T&G ceiling up over plastic with no drywall or air barrier. That can be a big problem in northern climates but to be fair I didn't watch the entire video or the construction details from previous videos.

 

[yeldogt]

I believe he's in Iowa. I watched the video on my phone and in the few closeups it appears to be closed cell foam so that was likely intended to be the vapor barrier.

Will be interesting to hear the whole story.

In another video it appears they are putting a T&G ceiling up over plastic with no drywall or air barrier. That can be a big problem in northern climates but to be fair I didn't watch the entire video or the construction details from previous videos.

This is where things get "iffy" in my mind. I never do a wood ceiling w/o drywall under it .... And I spray foam. In my new build the 5/8 rock went all over the building including the area where the wood ceiling was. This way you isolate the spaces ... wood ceiling leak and you can "hear" through them.

I'm not into wasting money .... it's a question of seeing problems in buildings and not following what did not work.

 

[Voi]

This is where things get "iffy" in my mind. I never do a wood ceiling w/o drywall under it .... And I spray foam. In my new build the 5/8 rock went all over the building including the area where the wood ceiling was. This way you isolate the spaces ... wood ceiling leak and you can "hear" through them.

I'm not into wasting money .... it's a question of seeing problems in buildings and not following what did not work.

It is still done fairly often in my area and in most cases our climate allows people to either get away with it or just not notice any problem.

But some people wake up after one of our 60+ degree winter temperature swings to find an interior water feature they didn't pay for. At least not yet.

I even put up ceiling drywall in my small seasonal cabin. It just makes sense.

Back to the project in the OP, I worry that with the deep freeze that part of the country had combined with the use of portable propane heaters during drywall didn't create the perfect storm of moisture and conditions that may not have otherwise been a problem.

I wonder if the other videos show if he boiler was installed and running before insulation and drywall?

 

[dcg9381]

I'll never understand why people use "open cell" foam ! The best example of open cell foam is a SPONGE ! They hold lots of water.

Cost is one reason. Certainly closed cell is better R value, here in new construction, there is some advantage to being able to spray a lot of open cell to help close all the envelope gaps... Open cell is most common on residential here.

I do agree, that any structure needs to go through a rain or two to verify no water leaks before you spray foam on the roof.

 

[dcg9381]

I have watch lot of Youtubes on building Pole Barn, I have watch lot Youtubes on spray foam and metal roofs and condensation problems.

I wonder if this is regional. I'm in a shop building with 3" of open cell on the roof and have friends with hangers / barndos where the setup is exactly the same. None of us have had issues - and it's been more than 10 years in some cases.. Wonder if it's a Texas thing.

 

[jabin]

The youtube Spray Foam Jones has a nice explanation of why. Too thin seems to be the common reason.

Also, Open Cell sprayed with each layer, it produces a film when is dries and with enough of the skins, 3 or more, can accomplish a vapor barrier.

 

[littleboss]

Very curious to see how this turns out, I hope he keeps posting.

Will insurance pay out?

\

Doubtful since he was the dumb **** that did the job himself. If he had of researched spray foam he would have known not only was there a minimum amount required (for different climate zones) there is also a ratio of foam to fiberglass that has to be used. On top of that he used fiberglass with paper which made a double vapor barrier...

 

[yeldogt]

I don't see where he did the foam himself?

Also -- the one shot looks to show what I see as closed cell

 

[yeldogt]

I wonder if this is regional. I'm in a shop building with 3" of open cell on the roof and have friends with hangers / barndos where the setup is exactly the same. None of us have had issues - and it's been more than 10 years in some cases.. Wonder if it's a Texas thing.

It's more of a heat/stack driven moisture issue in cold climates.

Heated air is power ... it will create a stack effect ...powering the hotter moisture filled air to the top of a structure .. if there is open cell foam there can be moisture driven through the foam to the colder/ very cold sheathing and roof

This is not going to be a problem in a warm climate ... especially if you have a hot roof

 

[teal95]

Think about the temp diff across the insulation. If it's 0 outside and 70 inside and the fiberglass and foam have the same R value then the temp at the interface is 35. Since he didn't use a vapor barrier in the wall and the foam is effectively a vapor barrier to outside the dew point at the insulation interface is the same as inside. And I'm certain he had the inside dew point way over 35. So of course he has water.

 

[karoc]

He didn't do the foam his self, had a Youtube that shows the guy doing the spray foam and look like any other normal job. From time to time you would see him check the depth of the foam. After he was finish Marshall Remodel did a section of questions/ answers, which all seem normal and the home owner was happy with the work. But watching this Youtube that is posted it looks like this may get nasty and expensive.
Here's another that I been following which this couple is having the same problem but in different area.

Reason for me posting this is because that was my plan to flash and batt, I just wanted to let others know so we all can learn from this.

 

[yeldogt]

He didn't do the foam his self, had a Youtube that shows the guy doing the spray foam and look like any other normal job. From time to time you would see him check the depth of the foam. After he was finish Marshall Remodel did a section of questions/ answers, which all seem normal and the home owner was happy with the work. But watching this Youtube that is posted it looks like this may get nasty and expensive.
Here's another that I been following which this couple is having the same problem but in different area.

Reason for me posting this is because that was my plan to flash and batt, I just wanted to let others know so we all can learn from this.

He did the foam himself (the second guy) -- he also did the wood direct (the second video guy (not the op's guy -- the first guy))

You have to have enough foam in cold climates.

In an old house where they used "blown in" insulation -- there would be moisture flow thorough a wall. The wall would not have been air tight and moisture would travel and disperse -- that's the key ... disperse. Plaster walls/ framing .. board sheathing/ wood exterior siding. All those products can receive moisture and expel moisture ... they dry.

Almost any thickness of foam is going to stop air movement -- there is going to be no dispersement of moisture to the outside. Very little of the framing will be available to take any moisture ... I'm talking regular humidity in any building.

These people are creating a wall of foam that has no way to manage any moisture -- it's like condensation on a glass. When the wall falls under the dew point -- condensation.

What people don't understand -- the average house with fiberglass batts in a cold climate is getting some condensation on the walls and roof deck. You may not see it -- but the relative water content of the wood will increase and decrease.It's not a problem because it does not last -- the material drys to the outside and inside. Foam can't

 

[Marctrees]

karoc - Come look at the foam in my building... 25 miles S of Hemphill...very happy w the work.

5" on vertical surfaces, 7" under roof.

Approx 3k total surface area, $4k bill.

Contractor out of Lufkin in biz for years, very professional.

Invite to visit stands.

Marc

 

[Voi]

Follow up video. I haven't had a chance to watch it.

 

[karoc]

karoc - Come look at the foam in my building... 25 miles S of Hemphill...very happy w the work.

5" on vertical surfaces, 7" under roof.

Approx 3k total surface area, $4k bill.

Contractor out of Lufkin in biz for years, very professional.

Invite to visit stands.

Marc

Thanks for the invite Marc, once I really get started and rolling along I want to come by and talk and see your place. And for the first time see a Pole Barn with living quarters. So I can see what I am getting myself into.

 

[yeldogt]

Follow up video. I haven't had a chance to watch it.

In a cold climate you need enough foam .... it's that simple.

But -- I do think he had problems because he did not manage water during the build ...... high humidity and wet insulation can happen w/o foam.

Take the foam out of the equation and think of a zip wall ..?? Zip wall allows no air flow .... trust me .. That back side of the Zip ...it's wet.

The difference is the humidity is able to be absorbed by the framing and some of the drywall ... even the back of the zip. This will then dry as the building drys ---- if you have the inside conditioned properly.

When you foam ... even a very thin coat. Nothing can absorb and manage the moisture ... the vapor is like cold glass in the summer.