Spray Foam

[AFKC]

What do you guys think about this bid for closed cell spray foam? The building is 35x50 and it is for the walls and the ceiling. For 1 ½ inch thick it is $5100 and for 2 inches it is $6100. I am located in KC and it does get cold here. Do you think 1 ½ inches would be enough or should I do 2 inches?

Thanks for your input!

 

[acmikee]

I just got one for my 32x36 shop with 15' walls on 6" studs and it was $18000. going a different rought now probably fiberglass...

 

[930dreamer]

I not sure if the 1/2" will make a big difference, the fact that the foam seals all air penetrations is the main factor, just my 02.

 

[Jo Diesel]

That extra 1/2" will make a big difference. An extra 1k sounds like a lot though for a 1/2" though. I would try to at least do the ceiling as it will help a lot keep the heat out

 

[AFKC]

Thanks for the replies. That is what I was thinking. Maybe 2 inches on the ceiling and then 1 1/2 on the walls. He also said this quote is for spray foam manufactured out of Canada and the color of it is green and not white. He said the only difference is the color. Ever heard of that?

 

[lakeroadster]

Nice barn!

I'd ask for a specification sheet on the product he is using, then check it out. Once you get R value data you should be able to do a return on investment calculation to determine if it is cost effective to bump up from 1-1/2" to 2". Here's a link: http://chuck-wright.com/calculators/insulpb.html

What's your end goal for the barn? A living space, a work shop or?

Also, other things to consider:

• Ask if the product has to be painted after application. Most of them do as the product degrades over time unless it is covered.
  
• Keep in mind steel panel removal will be very difficult after the spray foam is applied. That is unless Tyvek or a similar product was used before panel placement... doesn't appear to be the case though from looking at your photo's.
  
• When exposed to fire sources, such as trash fires, welding arcs, cutting torches, or red-hot metal, unprotected SPF [spray polyurethane foam] can ignite and may result in a flash fire.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...mal-barriers-and-ignition-barriers-spray-foam
_____
John

 

[Voi]

For 1 ½ inch thick it is $5100 and for 2 inches it is $6100.

On one hand your extra 1/2" is 40% off compared to the first three 1/2" layers. On the other hand it probably won't cost the contractor much at all to spray it.

I assume if you go with 1.5" it will be filled to the depth of the girts and purlins? And if you go with 2" there will be 1/2" over the girts and purlins?

If so that extra 1/2" will do quite a bit to reduce thermal bridging.

Lastly, aren't some Canadian building products color coded? Like some lumber is colored to show it's fire or water treatment?

I've seen purple spray foam sprayed in Canada so I'd want to know the difference. It could be as simple as one is closed cell and one is open cell.

 

[Voi]

Once you get R value data you should be able to do a return on investment calculation to determine if it is cost effective to bump up from 1-1/2" to 2".

If the 1.5" doesn't cover the girts and purlins and the 2" does there will be performance differences that can't be predicted with just R value. Just like a home with exterior foam can out perform one without it, even if it has more R value in insulation.

Regardless, that's a good link and I'd crunch the numbers anyways.

 

[theoldwizard1]

What R value do those give you ?

If you are going to heat/cool the place, I think I would go with 4" or more in the ceiling. It is becoming common practice to apply 1-2" over the entire interior and than add an additional 4"-6" additional of roll/batt fiberglass.

You pay for insulation once. You pay for the energy to heat/cool your building every time the thermostat calls for it !

 

[purplezr2]

What is the total SQft being sprayed. About a dollar per sqft per inch is normal.

 

[INTMD8]

The price seems fine but I would want to know exactly what material it is first.

 

[AFKC]

All great input, thanks! The barn will be a workshop that I will heat/cool eventually. I am going to find out the name of the product from Canada.

 

[AFKC]

The name of the material company is Demilec. I will look into them

 

[gpflepsen]

Open or closed cell foam? Big difference in price and performance between the two. The product is usually priced per board foot. I was just quoted CC foam $2500-$3500 for just the underside of the roof sheeting, 936 sqft @ 3". 89 cents per bdft for my cheaper option.

Closed cell is more expensive, has a higher R-value and provides for structural support of the wall (racking resistance).

 

[Slowgsr]

Sounds like walltite Eco, made by basf.

Spray foam is still great right? No issues yet with voc's?

 

[C2 Turbo]

You pay for insulation once. You pay for the energy to heat/cool your building every time the thermostat calls for it !

^ agreed 100%

We recently build a house, actually it's still under construction, and we sprayed open foam, 10' ceilings and 6 " walls, through out the house.

We also have Geothermal and the thermostat is set at 73 and the temp stays right around 71-72

With people coming in and out all the time, my last month bill, which I actually just received it, was $81.00

Don't forget it's a 9000+ sq/ft house.

So yeah I agree, do it once and do it right.

To OP, what does your area calls for R values in the attic/side walls?

 

[Jo Diesel]

I bet you find the color is just what the manufacturer uses to know which product it is and that it is theirs. Plan on painting it. Most foams need to be painted with a latex paint as they photo degrade.

 

[AFKC]

I went back to him and told him $5300 for 2 inches on the ceiling and 1 1/2 on the walls. We will see what he says. Yes, it sounds like they just color code it to identify the product. I plan to eventually finish the inside snd it will be covered so the color isn't a big concern. Thanks again for all the input.

 

[mcirish101]

I had two inches sprayed on the walls of my 40x 60 x16 pole barn.. I also toyed with the idea of adding more insulation while they were there and working. Every contractor i have dealt with on my project has been very honest and communicative ( i think i am lucky for the particular rural area in lower michigan!!).

I had my gc ask the spray foam guy " if this was your building, would you add any more?"

the installer/owner said "no" what he sprayed is more than enough - he had a chance to make a few extra bux....and declined!

so far, i am very happy with the performance of the 2 inch foam.

 

[86turbodsl]

The going rate for closed cell in this area has been about $1/bd ft for several years. I think you could do a lot worse at 0.89 sprayed.

 

[dynahoe]

you can rent all the equipment and do it yourself. several spray foam rental companies if you google them they go all over the US. it may save you money and get a thicker layer

 

[kj_mustang]

All the studies I read before deciding to spray foam my building said that it requires a minimum of 2" closed cell to achieve a vapor barrier. That is what I had a pro spray on my walls.

 

[Randy in Maine]

The 2" or so provides you with a thermal barrier so that warm moist interior air won't condense on cooler surfaces. The other plus is that is will seal off most areas of infiltration (of warm air to the cold outside). It pretty much eliminates the need for any venting also.

I would let a pro spray it as it is pretty nasty stuff to spray on.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I had my gc ask the spray foam guy " if this was your building, would you add any more?"

the installer/owner said "no" what he sprayed is more than enough - he had a chance to make a few extra bux....and declined!

Additional insulation is ALWAYS a good idea. How god (or how fast can you recover the additional money it cost you) depends on how many heating/cooling days per year you have. If you are only heating part time, then it will take many years to get you money back.

If you are heating "full time", even if you are just trying to maintain 50-60F, you will get your money back in a few years.


You pay for insulation once. You pay for the energy to heat/cool your building every time the thermostat calls for it !

 

[mcirish101]

Additional insulation is ALWAYS a good idea. How god (or how fast can you recover the additional money it cost you) depends on how many heating/cooling days per year you have. If you are only heating part time, then it will take many years to get you money back.

If you are heating "full time", even if you are just trying to maintain 50-60F, you will get your money back in a few years.


You pay for insulation once. You pay for the energy to heat/cool your building every time the thermostat calls for it !

I don't disagree....I feel good about 2 inches worth of spray foam; where does one draw the line? at what point/depth does it not make sense?

2" for a part time use structure made sense for me. If the professional installer would have recommended 3 inches, I would have followed his suggestion more than likely

 

[AFKC]

Thanks again for the replies. I will just do 2 inch all over.

 

[dunnit]

I have a company spraying my house project right now....after watching them...do all companies have a lot of waste? Cleaning gun, and little issues. Was originally supposed to have been 1/2" or so...but looks to be 1"+...I was thinking of spraying my barn but after watching house , its looking like traditional...lol

 

[CTyankee]

I have a company spraying my house project right now....after watching them...do all companies have a lot of waste? Cleaning gun, and little issues. Was originally supposed to have been 1/2" or so...but looks to be 1"+...I was thinking of spraying my barn but after watching house , its looking like traditional...lol

Not a fan of whole home spray foam myself...but that's another story.

Maybe I've just seen crappy jobs, but judging by the ones I have seen 1/2 inch increments of foam were outside the realm of the applicators..most seemed more like spray and pray.

 

[dunnit]

Not a fan of whole home spray foam myself...but that's another story.

Maybe I've just seen crappy jobs, but judging by the ones I have seen 1/2 inch increments of foam were outside the realm of the applicators..most seemed more like spray and pray.

That's definently the case...there's definently a finesse to it. HahaD

 

[James-W]

Additional insulation is ALWAYS a good idea. How god (or how fast can you recover the additional money it cost you) depends on how many heating/cooling days per year you have. If you are only heating part time, then it will take many years to get you money back.

If you are heating "full time", even if you are just trying to maintain 50-60F, you will get your money back in a few years.


You pay for insulation once. You pay for the energy to heat/cool your building every time the thermostat calls for it !

I am going to disagree with that statement for "technical" reasons, although as a general rule of thumb I would agree with you.

If you are heating a building with NO insulation and you decide to put i n one inch of insulation, you will save a certain amount of money. If you add another inch of insulation, you will save money as well, but you won't save as much money with the second inch of insulation as you saved with the first inch. Likewise, every inch of insulation you add will save some money, but the amount of money you save goes down with every inch of insulation that you add. There comes a point when adding more insulation makes little or no sense because the payback time is so long that you won't live long enough to pay for the insulation.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to start a feud with you. I am just pointing out that while adding more insulation is generally a good thing, you can, in some cases at least, have too much of a good thing.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I don't disagree....I feel good about 2 inches worth of spray foam; where does one draw the line? at what point/depth does it not make sense?

2" for a part time use structure made sense for me.

Well, that is the key right there !

If you do start using it full time, it is going to cost you.

 

[lakeroadster]

What R value do those give you ?

R value is about 7 per inch of foam.... for closed cell:
http://greenstampco.com/docs/Top 10 Questions Asked About Spray Foam Insulation.pdf
http://www.rhhfoamsystems.com/uploa...V8HU8kHBZ/31/Spec Data 1-9-15-50 Standard.pdf

 

[theoldwizard1]

There comes a point when adding more insulation makes little or no sense because the payback time is so long that you won't live long enough to pay for the insulation.

I agree 100% ?


Ever wonder how they insulate that ski hill in the desert ? Basically it is 10+' of "dead air". I think they do a light layer of spray foam on the inner and outer walls, just to seal against air leaks.

 

[BruceMc]

If you are heating a building with NO insulation and you decide to put i n one inch of insulation, you will save a certain amount of money. If you add another inch of insulation, you will save money as well, but you won't save as much money with the second inch of insulation as you saved with the first inch. Likewise, every inch of insulation you add will save some money, but the amount of money you save goes down with every inch of insulation that you add. There comes a point when adding more insulation makes little or no sense because the payback time is so long that you won't live long enough to pay for the insulation.

That's exactly right when it comes to saving money. There is another factor to consider, though - usability. Especially for a part time space in a cold climate. How quickly and efficiently do you want to raise the temperature? For instance, do you want to be able to plan an hour ahead or have to start a day ahead to get the interior up to a comfortable working temperature?

 

[lakeroadster]

You really have to look at the entire space, not just the walls and ceiling.

If the slab is cold..... and un-insulated.... part time heat in the winter time = a long term warm up time.

Add some big cold vehicles and the warm up time gets even longer.

_____
John

 

[Snowman87]

I've gotten several quotes to do my sidewalls which total ~2400 sq. ft. Lowest bid was $6,800 and highest bid was $7,800 for 3" thick closed cell. Middle of the road that's $1/sq. ft. per inch.

 

[DC73]

1.5" of spray foam is barely R10. 2" gets you to R13 or so. Neither is adequate in most climate regions.

Spray foam installers can use terms like effective r-value all they want but r-value is r-value. Spray foam does have the extra benefit of air sealing which is just as important as good insulation. The reason spray foam installers don't recommend more insulation is because they would get very little business quoting r-values as recommended by DOE and building science experts.

Best bang for the buck with spray foam is to do what the industry calls "flash and batt". Spray enough foam to air seal and stop condensation problems and then finish with cellulose, mineral wool, fiberglass, etc.

DC

 

[snowphun]

A bit off topic but that is a really nice barn, I'm impressed the lift can be tucked in the corner and still looks to have full range of motion.

 

[yeldogt]

I always go with the 2" or a little more on the foam/ batts to get above the dew point on the inside -- we have energy/ insulation inspections so we have to use batts over the foam to get the R value.

In my new build -- I'm doing 4" over the whole place.

 

[smuth10]

I just finished my 30x40 here in SE Michigan and I was quoted $2.50 sq\ft for 3" of closed cell and $3.50 sq\ft for 4". About $7500 total for 3" in the walls and 4" in the ceiling