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Sprayfoam ideas?

4theDogs

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Hello,

I just had my walls spray-foamed with 3 inches of closed cell spray foam. My garage is 24x30 10' high. It does have storage space with a pull down ladder above. My question is should i put the ceiling up and insulate with spray or foam board or should I, as the spray-foam contractor stated, just spray the underside of the roof.
I have a wood burning stove to heat and really don't need the upper space but was wondering about how much insulation the put above and where?
 
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kj_mustang

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Do you have roof ventilation installed? soffit vents, roof ridge vent, eave vents, etc.
If no, then you could spray the roof deck. But if you are in a humid climate and will not A/c it, then that could cause issues. In other words, need more info.
 

JOE.G

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I would spray the decking of the roof, You will have to seal off any venting you may have up there, I did my whole house this way it made a huge difference.
 
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4theDogs

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When it was made, it was built vented with a ridge and soffit vent system. I purchased the property in the fall of 2019. I took out all the R13 fiberglass and about 10 pounds of mouse poop (maybe a little exaggeration) and are starting to make it my own. I live in North West Pennsylvania, lots of snow and cold wind off of the lake. The sprayfoam contractor had no issue with the vents in spraying to close them off.
 

Dick in Wisconsin

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I like the idea of properly installed foam. Seals everything up tighter than a frogs bee-hind if done right.

If you spray foam the underside of the roof and seal up all the ridge, roof, and soffit vents you will now have everything sealed tight, very tight. No air in, no air out.

Is that really what you want? How will the wood stove get combustion air? Separate line in for air in? Or will you try to **** it around the doors and any windows? That kinda defeats the purpose of all your insulation efforts.

The other option is to put fresh batt insulation between the bottom chord of the trusses/rafters plus a really thick vapor barrier and then seal everything up really good. Leave the roof and soffit vents in place.

If you spray foam under the roof, you've increased the amount of space you're heating and you've increased the square footage that will leak heat. You're also going to get the rising heat to be concentrated up high. But if you're burning wood, maybe that isn't material.

Hope what I've said helps.
 
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4theDogs

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The more I talk to people and the more information that I get, I think my plan is to insulate the ceiling (at the 10' height) and now my thought is what insulation. I am thinking to drywall or metal ceiling and spray from above to seal the main area and leave above alone. I do plan spending enough time in there to justify doing it right.
 

Dick in Wisconsin

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The more I talk to people and the more information that I get, I think my plan is to insulate the ceiling (at the 10' height) and now my thought is what insulation. I am thinking to drywall or metal ceiling and spray from above to seal the main area and leave above alone. I do plan spending enough time in there to justify doing it right.

We put the least expensive of the three options for steel from Menards on the ceilings of the race shop with thick vapor barrier above and then batt in some of the shop and blown fiberglass in the rest. That gave us the thinnest material. No need to go with the heavy stuff. We did use the heavier stuff in the attached garage five years before. Way too heavy.

I think the steel was easier to put up than sheetrock. Once up, immediately it was "finished" and looked very nice. We used white, it looks great, and the white reflects light really well. Put up a thick vapor barrier, then the steel, and then spray from above. Menards cuts it to 1" increments.
 

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4theDogs

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We put the least expensive of the three options for steel from Menards on the ceilings of the race shop with thick vapor barrier above and then batt in some of the shop and blown fiberglass in the rest. That gave us the thinnest material. No need to go with the heavy stuff. We did use the heavier stuff in the attached garage five years before. Way too heavy.

I think the steel was easier to put up than sheetrock. Once up, immediately it was "finished" and looked very nice. We used white, it looks great, and the white reflects light really well. Put up a thick vapor barrier, then the steel, and then spray from above. Menards cuts it to 1" increments.

The ceiling looks really nice and clean finished. I do think that is the way I am going to go.
 
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4theDogs

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Here is the one picture that I have so far. haha. Where I am going to put the stove.
 

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kj_mustang

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Metal liner panels on the ceiling, blown cellulose or fiberglass on top of that, leave the attic vented. You will have to worry about fresh air for that stove to draw as that spray foam seals it up good.
 

rjacobs

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Spraying the underside of the roof deck will keep all the heat the sun causes from coming in. At least down here in Texas thats a huge advantage of spray foam, but in NW PA(guessing Erie area) its probably not as big a deal.
 

JOE.G

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I read it wrong the first time, I would spray foam the ceiling and leave the roof Vented if it is only going to be a small cold storage space up there, I did my roof but I don't have an attic, It is spray foam to my Decking then finished walls in my home.
 

yeldogt

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I have never understood having the foam contractor out to do the walls and not have the ceiling/roof deck done... even if it's a flash and batt.

I wish people would spend some time and understand what venting does and does not do ... most of what it does is bad and most of what it does not do is bad.

Fully spaying is what I have been doing for almost 30 years -- from the slab to the peak .. done. No leaks/ no issues. You don't need venting .. you don't want venting.

The the OP ... with proper foam on the roof deck ... do whatever you want with the ceiling. How is it constructed? Also -- with foam and a space that size -- you will not need much heat.

Don't mix up venting and air exchange for indoor health .... same with make up air for a wood stove. Any tight structure needs thought about healthy inside air.
 
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Colin Len

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Insulating the roof deck will be more efficient. That way you're insulating the entire space. You could still put up a ceiling so you're only conditioning the lower space.

If you insulate the ceiling instead of the roof then you need to figure out attic venting. And, the bigger problem will be that the attic will still be hot/cold based on weather. It'll hold the heat up there and more of the structure itself will heat up and transfer that heat to the rest of the building.

I'd listen to your spray foam contractor and take his recommendation.
 
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4theDogs

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I am here to get opinions, not be insulted. Before I do something, i like to be informed and have a discussion on how people think or do things so I can do things right. I know i wanted the walls sprayfoamed. That was easy, but I wanted opinions on how to proceed with everything above. We are getting into summer so doing above was not a job that I wanted to rush into uninformed. My question now is if I was to spray under the roof how many inches would one put. I do understand that for my zone it states R30-R68 but that all based on fiberglass and loose fill. does spray have the same requirements being that it is an airseal?
 

rjacobs

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I am here to get opinions, not be insulted. Before I do something, i like to be informed and have a discussion on how people think or do things so I can do things right. I know i wanted the walls sprayfoamed. That was easy, but I wanted opinions on how to proceed with everything above. We are getting into summer so doing above was not a job that I wanted to rush into uninformed. My question now is if I was to spray under the roof how many inches would one put. I do understand that for my zone it states R30-R68 but that all based on fiberglass and loose fill. does spray have the same requirements being that it is an airseal?

To your first point: grow thicker skin around here because there are guys that have "been there, done that, got the t-shirt" and they dont mess around when they see an issue. Their delivery could be "better" I dont disagree, but their opinion, based on experience, is valid.

To your later point on R-value, I did some research on this when I decided to do spray foam on the underside of the roof on my new build house. The spray foam guys in my new house shot between 6 and 8 inches of open cell on the roof deck. So lets say for argument's sake 6" at an average R value of 3.7(just pulled that from google) per ", so R22.7. I think the spray is thicker in a lot of areas, but ill go with what I believe is min thickness. In my zone(3) attic insulation required is R38. Your Zone 5 is the same for non Group R(residential). If this was a zone 5 residential structure you would need R-49. The energy code doesnt differentiate between WHAT type of insulation, it just states R-values.

So my spray foam at ~R22.7 on the underside of the roof deck doesnt meet the R38 code for attics in my zone. It does meet the requirement of R20 for "entirely above deck" yet it doesnt meet the definition.

I asked the county/city code inspector how this worked and he said, and this is specific to my area only obviously, that they count spray foam on the underside of the roof deck in the same category as "entirely above deck" because the codes are not written with spray foam characteristics in mind. They determined(through what means I dont know) that spray foam under the deck acted the same as something like XPS panels above the deck. MY guess is their reasoning is that with either above deck XPS or below deck spray foam you are keeping the heat from the sun exposure out of the attic space and moving the conditioned envelope up. With on ceiling blown in you are trying to keep heated air that can go 50+ above outside ambient from penetrating your ceiling into your conditioned space.

Anyway, back to the point. Call your county/city inspector and ask the question of what they require for your structure. My guess is the requirements are WAY looser because its a shop, not a residential. They may require no insulation(which is probably the case for a detached barn or garage) and in that case you can do what you want. But that would be my first call(it was in my case) to see what, if anything, they will require.
 

JOE.G

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In my home I have 6 Inches on my roof deck of closed foam which is what I recommend you use on the Deck, I wouldn't use open cell on the deck. If you spray your Deck you can always add open, Loose,batt's or what ever you like on the ceiling if you find it is not enough. You are limited to your Truss depth. I am a huge fan of Spray foam, and I have used it in part of my Basement also and plan to do the rest. If I ever build another house or shop from scratch There is no doubt that I will spray foam everything.
 
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yeldogt

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You pay a fairly high premium just to get the truck to show up .... That's why it's important to point out in every foam thread that people should get upfront prices for whole jobs ... foam is not one to be doing in stages if you what the best price.

The foam needs to be thick enough on the roof deck in your area to insure no condensation -- any good foam contractor should know. And you bump up against code as mentioned above .. it depends on how the code is being interpreted.

I just did 5" heavy on the deck and 4" in the walls -- but, I could have done a bit less. The flash and batt would have been around 2.5 and 2
 
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JOE.G

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Yes I would do as much as you can while they are there, I am lucky and am friendly with a local large foam company that is known for doing great work so i get some very good prices. I always take there advice on how much and what type to use. Set up and clean up take time.
 
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4theDogs

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This.

It's at least $500, if not a grand, just to get two guys, the truck, the chemicals to show up... then to hook up to your electric panel and start heating the drums.

This is what i paid for 24x30 with 10' height less one man door and a 16x8 garage door. 3 inches thick of closed cell on the walls. $2600.

I do have him planning on coming back to do my basement and crawlspace on my house and that is when i plan on having him finish the garage.

Thank you for all the help with this.
 

danski0224

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Last time I looked into spray foam for a job, there was a minimum $1200 show up charge.

I don't remember the exact details (and they would have likely changed), but that amount got you a certain amount of board feet of foam.

The larger the job, the cost per board foot goes down considerably. It still isn't "cheap", but the comparison needs to be done at the price per board foot point, not simply square feet.

12" x 12" x 1" = one board foot.
 
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Bigshow0003

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My numbers align with 4thedogs above. My estimate for 30x40x10, less 1 man door, one window, and one 16x8 overhead, with 3" closed cell for the walls = $3,600.

To spray 3" on the bottom of the roof deck, add $1,500.

This is using a well known, reputable business in northern WI. The contractor told me 3" will suffice even though we are in zone 6/7.

Heating with an 80,000 BTU Mr Heater Big Maxx (propane) to keep a building at 45-50 all winter.
 

Bigshow0003

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Additional...
What is the pitch on your roof? I have a 4/12 and have had the same dilemma for my ceiling/attic space. If I spray the roof, and put a ceiling in, then I'm heating that attic space for no good reason. Versus putting the ceiling up and blowing in glass on it (the cheaper option). My goal is to lessen the risk of condensation, which the only solution there would be spraying the roof deck.
 

Nivekdodge

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The abbreviations are for the attic, outside, garage and here in the dining room. The attic has 3 inches of foam and is within s degree of the dining room slways
 

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dcg9381

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This is what i paid for 24x30 with 10' height less one man door and a 16x8 garage door. 3 inches thick of closed cell on the walls. $2600.

About $5k here for 40x60x16. Probably one of the lower cost spots in the country.
 

Nivekdodge

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Yes< on the bottom of the deck. Some of the insulation that was on the ceiling I left for no particular reason. seems to be within 3 degrees now in the heat.
 

TBEVO

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My numbers align with 4thedogs above. My estimate for 30x40x10, less 1 man door, one window, and one 16x8 overhead, with 3" closed cell for the walls = $3,600.

To spray 3" on the bottom of the roof deck, add $1,500.

This is using a well known, reputable business in northern WI. The contractor told me 3" will suffice even though we are in zone 6/7.

Heating with an 80,000 BTU Mr Heater Big Maxx (propane) to keep a building at 45-50 all winter.

Would you mind sharing the business? As I am planning a 40x40 in northern/central Wisconsin. Wausau area if you know where that is. I see you are in Vilas, my cousin is a sheriff up there.
 

Deude_Mann

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My numbers align with 4thedogs above. My estimate for 30x40x10, less 1 man door, one window, and one 16x8 overhead, with 3" closed cell for the walls = $3,600.

That is a really good price, what about $0.40 a board foot? My quotes have been two times that high (at least) from several different companies. Central Texas.
 
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yeldogt

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What is the pitch on your roof? I have a 4/12 and have had the same dilemma for my ceiling/attic space. If I spray the roof, and put a ceiling in, then I'm heating that attic space for no good reason. Versus putting the ceiling up and blowing in glass on it (the cheaper option). My goal is to lessen the risk of condensation, which the only solution there would be spraying the roof deck.

What you have to understand is -- you are heating the attic ...NOW ... and cooling it if you have AC. You just don't see it --

Convential ceiling insulated structures leak ... a lot. You need to vent them because any heat that escapes takes water with it and then that water sits on the wood in the attic. heat rises -- larger the delta --- the more force. It;s called heat stacking and it forces heat up and out.

When you spray foam the deck -- you stop the flow. The heat that at one time went into the attic -- and out to the outside. That heat is now trapped in the attic - warming it. There is no additional cost to heat the attic. Same with a crawl space ... close it off. Why allow cold air to enter under your building. Or hot humid air?
 
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dfiler2

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It's important to understand that "heat" does not rise, hot air does. Radiant heat from any source goes out evenly in all directions.
 

dcg9381

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What you have to understand is -- you are heating the attic ... and cooling it if you have AC. You just don't see it --

This is absolutely right. Home down here get smaller HVAC units if they are foam insulated and the HVAC system is in the semi-cooled space of the attic. I can work all day long in the attic of a foam insulated home that has no direct cooling of that space. I might last about 30 minutes in a home with traditional insulation (in the summer).

That being said, if the OP is heating with gas and that unit is actually in the space below the attic, I can see an argument for sealing up the attic instead of the roof deck... There is no advantage of sealing the roof deck if you don't have ductwork/equipment up there....
 
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