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Very nice!
The Gods of duplicate wrenches are smiling upon you this day.
I'd like to keep the #1118 (high polish), but I'd be happy to pass along the #23718 (satin). I'll send it with the rest.
Spreading the Bonney affliction!
- Thread starter bonneyman
- Start date
The Gods of duplicate wrenches are smiling upon you this day.
I'd like to keep the #1118 (high polish), but I'd be happy to pass along the #23718 (satin). I'll send it with the rest.
Sam'sAutoParts
Well-known member
Very nice!
The Gods of duplicate wrenches are smiling upon you this day.
I'd like to keep the #1118 (high polish), but I'd be happy to pass along the #23718 (satin). I'll send it with the rest.
Oh, sweet! Satin will fit do just fine, functionality over looks for this “set”
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twertsy
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I'll take a look and see if I have extras Sam. I've gotta head your way in the next couple days anyway......my Grandma is in the hospital after a nasty fall. A couple new phones ago I had your number, no longer the case. Shoot me a PM.
Mikeske
Well-known member
Getting close on my mixed set of Bonney Loc-rite long pattern wrenches. Still need a 9/16 and a 11/16”. Some of them are pretty rough but I absolutely love using them.
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Very nice!
The Gods of duplicate wrenches are smiling upon you this day.
I'd like to keep the #1118 (high polish), but I'd be happy to pass along the #23718 (satin). I'll send it with the rest.
I just finished checking my tool list and I have only singles in the 9/16" and 11/16" If I had duplicates I would have offered them as my set is primarily high polish. What I have in duplicates are the 3/8", 7/16", 1/2", 5/8", 3/4 all high polish and the one inch. Some of duplicates in my set do have owners etchings and a lot of wear but no rust.
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Sam'sAutoParts
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Sam'sAutoParts
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Sorry to hear about your grandmother, hope she make a full recovery. PM sent.
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Getting close on my mixed set of Bonney Loc-rite long pattern wrenches. Still need a 9/16 and a 11/16”. Some of them are pretty rough but I absolutely love using them.
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I looked thru my sets, can't help you with a 11/16". I do have a spare 9/16" full polish but the finish on the OE is pretty rough. (Bottom wrench in pics) If nobody else comes thru I'll offer it to ya.
I actually like the satin finish a bit better. Slightly better grip though they are tougher to clean.
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Private Lugnutz
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Before it gets lost in new postings shuffles... So nobody knows anything about the "7" and "8" (that look like they could be date codes) on the Bonney stud removers Don and I posted in posts #2439 and #2442? I am curious if anyone has ever seen anything similar on other Bonney tools from the late 40's.
d42jeep
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It’s not where I am so I couldn’t check it in person. The Snap-on date code that resembles the mark on my Hastings remover is 1983. If you have what looks like a date code on your Bonney, I suppose it’s possible that they were both sourced from Snap-on. Did you compare your mystery mark to a Snap-on date code chart?
-Don
-Don
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Mikeske
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Private Lugnutz
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No, I wouldn't have thought of that, frankly, and I didn't know that Snap-on even made that kind of stud wrench. But I would have to say you are almost certainly right. The symbol on my Bonney stud wrench looks like the Snap-on 1978 date code. Strange bedfellows. I wonder how long Bonney was sourcing their stud wrenches from Snap-on!
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I don't see a date code on yours at all, Mike.
Mikeske
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I try again to post what appears to be the date code
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Mikeske
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Out-of-focus, but looks like 1938...geez!
I’m not convinced about the existence of Bonney-branded, Snap-on-manufactured stud-removers. It seems more like Snap-on-stamped, Bonney-manufactured stud-removers to me.
d42jeep
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There is something stamped all over this, but I’m not sure it includes a Snap-on code. And if it does, I still insist that Snap-on sourced a lot of merchandise from outside manufacturers, stamping them as they were sold. The answer will lie in the patent assignee.
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Private Lugnutz
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Agreed. Which is why I tracked it down. Gagne, 2,024,852, 1935, assigned to Snap-on. Using Collecting Snap-on's awesome hyperlinked catalog part number feature, I clicked on A36 on the bottom of the page from the 1978 cat Don found, which shows ALL the years they made it. They first introduced it in Cat J, 1933, page 17. In Cat N, page 15, they cited the patent.
The first Bonney catalog I have in which is shows up is 1939.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Why would Bonney make a stud remover, stamp it with their name, and a Snap-on date code?
I don't think we have this all resolved yet, and I am not ready to say Snap-on was always making Bonney's stud removers. Your prewar example (a beaut, by the way!) looks Bonney made. But maybe they were paying them licensing fees and then later, by the late 70's, just outsourced it altogether.
Sam'sAutoParts
Well-known member
I appreciate the offer, but it looks like usernamealreadyinuse is sending me a 9/16”. Just down to needing a 11/16” at the moment.
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That’s not the design or operating principal of the Bonney mechanism. You have located the Snap-on patent, but not the Bonney patent.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I wouldn't say it operates on a wholly different design or operating principle. The gripping mechanism is on an eccentric wheel rather than a slide. As opposed to the concentric design that Cornwell used, however, it is - as Don alluded to - pretty danged close. But no, the Snap-on patent is not a Bonney patent. (It has not yet been established that there is a Bonney patent.) Hence my reference to this not being resolved yet. By the same token, I'm not ready to believe that Snap-on date codes on Bonney-branded stud removers and a 1935 Snap-on patent for a stud remover for which there is no Bonney record until 1939 (as far as I can tell so far) is merely an unrelated coincidence.
Rest assured thought LS, that I have no stake here other than getting to the bottom of this. Something is afoot, and may be amiss.
Rest assured thought LS, that I have no stake here other than getting to the bottom of this. Something is afoot, and may be amiss.
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d42jeep
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Just as an aside, my stud remover is not Bonney, but Hastings marked. The only reason it ended up in this thread was that I thought it resembled the Bonney remover. It would seem that it is extremely likely that Snap-on was making them on a contract basis for Hastings, particularly since the date code is clearly Snap-on. I actually pass along most Bonney tools that I find to another collector after a negative experience with the brand in the early ‘80s dissuaded me from collecting them.
-Don
-Don
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
And I am glad you did, Don! It is 99.9% identical to my Bonney-branded stud remover. It even has the Snap-on date code in the same exact location that my Bonney-branded stud remover has a Snap-on date code, just to the right of the "A." in "U.S.A." The only difference that I can see - and it is very negligible difference - is the pattern of the knurling on the wheel. The Bonney is straight up and down; the Hastings is slanted. Then again, they were made 5 years apart.
LesserSon:
On the patent... In my interpretation, almost everything in the description and the claims still fits the Bonney stud removers, as well as my example of one, except for the references to the "slidable" member. However, note that the description in every Snap-on catalog between 1933 and the 1908's describes it as a "wheel," and the wheel is visible in several of the figures. I am still not positive, but it's possible that Snap-on changed the design from the time the patent application was filed to the time they started making them.
I look forward to reviewing anything you can find on the matter.
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I have read the Bonney stud remover wheel was reversible for longer life. Your one pic shows a hole that appears to contain a set screw. That would make sense.
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Then let’s push the date back:
Bonney lists 2591 stud extractor at top of p14 of 1937 catalog.
Gray-Bonney lists “new design” (with two holes in the knurled wheel)2591 stud extractor at top of p13 of 1936 catalog.
Bonney lists 2590 stud extractor at top of p9 of 1934 catalog.
Bonney does not list a stud extractor in 1933 catalog (AFAICT).
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
An observation: Mike's and my Bonney stud removers are alike. The wheel is exposed. LS's prewar design is clearly different. The wheel is captive. The housing wraps around it and the bore for the stud goes all the way through to that underframe part. So the time period element is clearly in play here. It could be as simple as Bonney having their own patent for a similar but distinctive design, and then abandoning it at some point (the original design is still in the 1957, which is the latest I go with Bonney cats...) for Snap-on production.
EDIT: Thanks, LS. I see them now (at home with additional references)!
EDIT: Thanks, LS. I see them now (at home with additional references)!
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I take it back. The more I look at Mike’s stud extractor, the less that mark resembles two 1938 codes criss-crossed, and the more it resembles a flower. Could it just be a weird congregation of marks, like the less suggestive ones above it?
Mikeske
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I have to agree with Private Lugnutz as I am thinking my stud remover is of a later design. I had the remover for a couple years and never thought much about its history. Then we start to do a detailed searched into the history of the tool and draw a few blanks. Just throw more information on the fire mine is actually marked as 2591A with the "A" after the main tool number. Maybe a later revision and I just took more detailed pictures again and possible a date code on the side of the body.
Yes Bonneyman the hole in the ring is for a set screw and it is clearly visible in the picture I attached.
Yes Bonneyman the hole in the ring is for a set screw and it is clearly visible in the picture I attached.
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And the knurl is diagonal on mine, matching the 1937 catalog illustration. The 1934 and 1936 illustrations show knurled edge of the wheel with the typical diamonds or cross-hatched appearance.
Mikeske
Well-known member
A little further research I did is the 1963 Catalog list the stud remover as the 2591 and it had a federal specification of GGG-S-775 Type 3. The 1967 Bonney catalog list the 2591A as the stud removal tool.
Thank you, Mike! So the one I have is a type3. You would think there’d be an easy way to go from the Fed spec number to the original patent, but no. The only thing I know right now is that the type 3 was NOT offered in the 1956 Proto catalog. They seem to have used type 1 and type 2.
BTW, I want to back away from the claim, if I actually made it, that the type 3 is a Bonney patent. I just don’t think it’s a Snap-on patent. However I phrased “Bonney patent,” I intend only “patent applicable to the design used by Bonney.” It seems like this mechanism could have been used by earlier, dedicated-purpose, leverage-applying tools (for instance, those “automatic” pipe wrenches, where the moving jaw pivots on a pin, and therefore can be considered a radial section of an eccentric wheel), not just removable sockets, and the patent had expired by the time sockets became popular.
BTW, I want to back away from the claim, if I actually made it, that the type 3 is a Bonney patent. I just don’t think it’s a Snap-on patent. However I phrased “Bonney patent,” I intend only “patent applicable to the design used by Bonney.” It seems like this mechanism could have been used by earlier, dedicated-purpose, leverage-applying tools (for instance, those “automatic” pipe wrenches, where the moving jaw pivots on a pin, and therefore can be considered a radial section of an eccentric wheel), not just removable sockets, and the patent had expired by the time sockets became popular.
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Username already in use
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I've got a '44 dated SnapOn stud extractor and its for sure got the slidable member. Pics below for comparison.
I don't think that the 'Type 3' in the government spec is referencing a patent or version/iteration of the device. I'm sure I'll ****** up the explanation. Hoping that Lugz will jump in and help me out on this one...
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Private Lugnutz
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Type refers literally to type, or kind. For example, in GGG-S-121a, Screwdrivers, Type 1 = Cabinet (electricians), Type II = Close-quarter, etc. There are no stud removers in the 1939 Fed Specs I have, but I would imagine for stud removers it would be something like Type 1 = Eccentric wheel grip, Type 2 = Concentric wheel grip, Type 3 = Slide grip, Type 4 = Tubular grip, etc.I don't think that the 'Type 3' in the government spec is referencing a patent or version/iteration of the device. I'm sure I'll ****** up the explanation. Hoping that Lugz will jump in and help me out on this one...
All,
I really need to clean up a mess of hastiness on my part from yesterday, for which I apologize.
Snap-on first introduced the eccentric wheel grip type stud remover in 1933. It was Snap-on part number A-36. Generally speaking, that is the "type" of stud remover that Mike and I both have with a Bonney brand, a Bonney part number (2591A), and Snap-on date codes, made in the late 70's. That is also the type that Don has branded Hastings with a Snap-on date code of 1983.
With one significant caveat. A-36 is shown and described as having an enclosed housing (where the stud goes through the top of the housing, and also through the bottom of the housing, with the eccentric gripping cam wheel swiveling in a slot in the housing), just like the figure of Bonney stud remover 2591 shown in all Bonney catalogs, and just like the CV-era example that LS has.
In Mike's, mine, and Don's, the housing is open. The stud only extends through a single bore in the housing. And the eccentric cam wheel swivels and grips it in the open, at the bottom of the tool, not the middle. If I had to speculate, I would guess that is perhaps what the "A" in 2591A is designating.
Snap-on introduced a "new" stud remover, with the sliding grip, part number A-50, in 1934 (see Catalog K, page 17). No patent citation, because it was applied for (in 1933) but not yet granted. That is the type which Unaiu posted above. In Catalog N (1939), at the very bottom of page 15, they show the A-50 and the A-36 together, and the patent number is very clearly only under the A-50 sliding type.
Snap-on continued making the eccentric wheel grip type (A-36) and the sliding grip type (A-50), and added new types (e.g., pressure grip and release jaws, etc) that we don't need to get into here.
To go back to the Snap-on date codes that opened up this whole rabbit hole to begin with, I think it's almost certain that Bonney was sourcing the 2591, at least the A type, from Snap-on in the late 70's and 80's.
Who patented the eccentric wheel type that Snap-on and Bonney were both independently using as early as 1933 remains a mystery. I will say, in an ironic twist of fate, that it's possible that Bonney was supplying Snap-on! The description for the A-36 in the 1933 catalog explicitly mentions that the wheel is made of a "new and special alloy steel"!
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Private Lugnutz
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It does look like the "modern" (70's into 80's) Bonney versions of an eccentric wheel type that Mike and I have, and the Hastings. Where the housing is open. It doesn't look like the eccentric wheel type that LS has from the CV-era (from 1934 to be exact), where the housing enclosed the wheel. Problem with making a connection to the 1942 Wright patent is that the Bonney enclosed type is shown all the way through to the 1967 catalog.
The 1934 and 1936 illustrations show a diamond knurl pattern on the wheel, no Bonney CV logo, and multiple vertical ridges on the interior surface of the housing. The 1936 description states the “new style” has two holes in the wheel.
The catalog illustrations and descriptions are identical to my example from 1937 through the 1963 catalog, with the single exception, that my example has no chrome plating, a feature mentioned in all the USA catalogs.
Bonney was acquired by Kelsey Hayes in 1964. I have not seen catalogs from 1964-1966.
The 1967 catalog illustration and description match Lugz’ and Mike’s examples.
So...I don’t think my example can be 1934, but potentially any time from 1937-1963. Further, since it has no finish, could it not be wartime restrictions era?
I submit Bonney did not abandon their design until the simplification of product lines inherent to the consolidation into the Utica (Kelsey Hayes) tool division. (At that point in its history, Bonney is just a name, though, isn’t it? The full polish Loc-Rite tools are nice, but they’re really features Kelsey-Hayes acquired elsewhere and branded Bonney.)
Could the “modern” design have had a Herbrand origin?
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
It's so bizarre you would say that!! I just found a pair of Herbrand horse-shoe lock ring pliers at the flea (just posted them on the Herbrand thread!) and when I was paging through catalogs, I ran into the stud remover on page 25 of the 1948 catalog. It is the open kind, no enclosed housing, just like our modern Bonneys. And it appears again in the Kelsey-Hayes era 1966 catalog (page 33).
Here is one on eBay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Herbrand-U...936537?hash=item3fbb6595d9:g:3MUAAOSwh5ZccpVR
item no. 273726936537
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Herbrand-U...936537?hash=item3fbb6595d9:g:3MUAAOSwh5ZccpVR
item no. 273726936537