Spreading the Bonney affliction!

[LesserSon]

Spotted this 4093 + 4094 eBait, and couldn’t resist, despite the price and three missing screws. The screw is VERY similar to the screws used to install electric switches & receptacles, but seems to have a SLIGHTLY finer thread.
The 4094 plug is slightly less robust than the one I have for the more common, chunky wedge-shaped 4093.
The cover plate and internals swap perfectly witH BSPCo rats, with the exception that the BSPCo cover plate is countersunk for the short screws, which anchor into the head. On this guy, the head is countersunk with smooth shafts for the long, heavier screws and the cover plate holes are threaded. Quite a bit easier to handle the longer screws, so faster assembly. Plus, if the female threads strip, the cover plate is much cheaper to replace than the whole forged body. I think that is a little more evidence supporting Lugz’s idea that the BSPCo rat is the ancestor, and not the descendant.
The big mystery to me is, why does it have no forged-in date codes? The BSPCo rats (of which, this is a near clone) have date codes...
Edit - okay NOW I see that there IS a date code - just not legible. Maybe an “S”?

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Nice ratchets ls. Rarely see those.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I think that is a little more evidence supporting Lugz’s idea that the BSPCo rat is the ancestor, and not the descendant.

Thanks for the mini-study and the internals comparison photos, LS! And thanks for remembering my analysis. For anyone interested in reading my rationale, first written up in the old dialogue section of Tool Archives 1.0, I also posted it on the BSPCo thread, linked here. Essentially, Bonney was forging ratchets for BSPCo in the 1920's, before they were making their own, for their own line, and appropriated the design for their early 4093's. When, exactly, is still a sort of mystery, but they weren't making any detachable drive tools in 1925, and the first time they appear in a catalog is 1932. So, sometime in between, which "S" (1927) supports. Todd has three of the early BSPCo-looking 4093's and all of the date codes are impossible to read with any certainty. One of his does seem to also be an "S" and another looks like a "W" (1931). I am jealous. I have yet to run into one in the wild. I only have the Bonney-made BSPCo in my "D" set.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

I have a couple and you can see the resemblance.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Not to go too far off Bonney topic here, but to close the loop fully, there is still one mystery wrt the Bonney 4093 being a descendent of the BSPCo 1/2-drive ratchet. BSPCo also used Herbrand to forge them. Did BSPCo own the design and give the specs (and perhaps even the dies) to both Bonney and Herbrand? If so, how was Bonny able to use it as the design for the 4093 in their own forged, detachable drive tools line laucnehd a few years later? Was it licensed? Or bought? Or did Bonney own the design and give the specs (and perhaps the dies) to BSPCo to give to other third party forges? Or did BSPCo never bother doing anything (patent, etc) to claim rights to the design and Bonney just appropriated it out of largesse? In short how Bonney came to later use the same design forged by both them and Herbrand for BSPCo ratchets is not known.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Its a quandry

 

[LesserSon]

I wonder if a careful tracing of BSPCo ownership and debts (à la Snap-on & FMPs) would turn up a connection... How the Durhams came into possession of Bonney in the first place is a bit murky (to me at least - was it an outright purchase, poker win, gift?). Maybe BSPCo owed money to Bonney, and settled the debt with a handshake and a “keep the dies.”
The mechanism is so generic, maybe whatever patent may have once applied had lapsed long before it was produced for BSPCo. There’s no “ptd” on any example I’ve seen. No evidence showing BSPCo, Bonney or Herbrand actually designed it. And if BSPCo didn’t hold a design patent on the rat body, just not forging the BSP company logo would be enough to make Bonney’s reuse of the dies above board even without permission.
BTW, I was thinking about Twertsy’s one 4093 which looks to boast a riveted face plate. Be nice to see more examples like it, because it would have been a great way for Bonney to use up a back stock of BSPCo face plates on 4093 bodies, which would otherwise be incompatible using screws (neither part having female threads).

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Some good insights. The connections between these companies obviously existed, but evidence is tough to come by.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

As I was saying on the 'DBE' thread, I picked up a pair of Miller Mfg wrenches this morning at the flea market. Pretty sure the door hinge tool is in-house Miller. The starter wrench was made for Miller by Bonney in 1949 ("LM"). What's neat about that to me from a historical perspective is that Miller would acquire Bonney just a few years later.

 

[outofbounds]

Sadly missed out on the close of this auction. Doubly sad too, on account fo the fact that I likely have the missing 6th wrench to complete the set.....I think someone did pretty good for $12.00 (inc. buyer's premium & tax)

https://michigan.hibid.com/lot/72577277/5pc-bonney-sae-open-end-wrench-set/?apage=4&q=&ref=lot-list

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Sad story oob! You will get them next time. Here is a 40s set AV I have been collecting.

 

[outofbounds]

Sad story oob! You will get them next time. Here is a 40s set AV I have been collecting.

wow.....just wow.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Thanks oob. Still looking for some bits.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Still looking for some bits.

Which ones? Post a list. I have all kinds of orphans and extras.

I don't recall you showing or mentioning this kit before, sly dog. I know you thought the brown crinkle "not very exciting" back in January when OOB found that drop-front box, but I kind of like it. It's boldly, back-to-basics-y blase. I have a Bonney V-series midget set with that finish, linked here. And the Speedmaster Zephyr kit box is also the same brown.

Smart to put the prewar deeps in there as stand-ins, they're hard enough to find. And I like the photo op with the prewar obstruction set pouch, too!

Seriously, post a list. Or highlight the items you need on that cat excerpt.

 

[DD T/A]

Is that box restored, OTG?

 

[outofbounds]

Thanks oob. Still looking for some bits.

As does Lugz, I'm sure I have some of those bits lying about.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Thanks guys. Lugz, oob, still looking around for correct wrenches and 3/8 extensions, 10" 1/2 extension. Dd/ta it has a new decal.

 

[LesserSon]

Which ones? Post a list. I have all kinds of orphans and extras.

Smart to put the prewar deeps in there as stand-ins, they're hard enough to find. And I like the photo op with the prewar obstruction set pouch, too!

Seriously, post a list. Or highlight the items you need on that cat excerpt.

Lugs, which are the stand-ins? 1 or 2?
Does he need shiny or plain to complete the AV set?

I saw that Mick still had some Bonney at Quakertown. I looked over the deeps and they were all dupes for me, but maybe not for otg He also had a few “made in usa” Bonaloy DBEs.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Think I have a line on some wrenches in Gilbert. Going to check them out this weekend.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Lugs, which are the stand-ins? 1 or 2?
Does he need shiny or plain to complete the AV set?

2. They are 30's with the script fully spelled-out Chrome-Vandium name. See Pic 5 in Post #3171. As for what finish he needs on wrenches, I don't know. It appears he may have a transitional mix of early 40's plain finish MADE IN U.S.A. tools and late 40's chrome U.S.A. OTG will have to clarify. Maybe he's okay with a mix.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Its shortly post war, so mixed would not be unusual.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

That's the attitude I would take.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Otg,

I took some time to go through my Bonney stash this morning.

These pieces are all available. PM me if interested.

- At the top is a 4091X 1/2-inch drive 10" Extension. The AV set includes one, and, as you've indicated, you need one. Postwar.

- The DBE is a 2891 (1/2" x 9/16") long pattern (15* angle ends, not offset). The AV set includes one, and you need one. 1945 date code.

- That 1/4-inch drive 6" Extension is a V18. The AV set includes one. And unless I'm mistaken, I think you need one. (The one in your set looks like a V19 2" Extension.) Postwar.

- The AV set does not include a T6 3/8-inch drive 18" Extension or a T36 3/8-inch drive Sliding Tee, but I noted that you put a T35 ratchet in your box, which is also not included in the AV set, suggesting you may be interested in additional 3/8-inch drive tools. Both early wartime.

- Lastly, you did not indicate which three (3) of the four (4) AV set Extra Deep 1/2-inch drive sockets you have in that box, and I can't read the part numbers or sizes in the photos, but I have an extra LD28T (7/8" service opening), which is the largest of the four. Prewar, like your others.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Some close-ups of the 4091X (Pics 1 & 2), the 2891 (Pics 3, 4, & 5), and the V18 (Pics 6 & 7).

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Some close-ups of the T36, T6, and the LD28T.

 

[Username already in use]

I know I've got some spare deeps and some spare wrenches.
Whatever holes that Lugz can't fill for you, lemme know.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Thanks guys. Have taken extras out of box for a more accurate idea of whats missing. Looks like pretty good on sockets just have one deep thats not chrome. Need the 4091x extension (10", 1/2 drive). T4 and t5 extensions (3/8 drive). I may have some wrenches lined up this weekend I will see what he has. This was a set that was designed for expansion. Here is pics with extras removed and one of extras on floor.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Need the 4091x extension (10", 1/2 drive).

I have one. See post #3183 and #3184.

Do you have a 1/4-inch drive V18 6" extension? The AV set includes one, I didn't see one in your photos from yesterday, and I'm not sure what extensions you are showing in your photos today. If you need one, I have one. See post #3183 and #3184.

If you're interested in extra, additional 3/8-inch drive pieces (like the T35 ratchet you are showing) that are not in the AV set, I have a T6 18" extension and a T36 sliding tee. See post #3183 and #3185.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Yes have the v18 thanks lugz. Should have a more complete list soon.

 

[Jc2043]

I found this stray Bonney Zenel 3729 today. Anybody need it?


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[LesserSon]

Mack Trucks Inc laser etch on a late 3/8dr sliding tee. Took a while to get a frozen Mac 3/8-1/2 adapter off of it.

 

[swshawaii]

Bought this unusually short Bonney MEB10 shown in the middle to complete a set. Measures around 4-1/2" long. 1967 and 1977 on line catalogs list the MEB10 length at 5-3/16" (131.8mm). Is it possible Bonney used an MEB9 blank for the middle wrench?

 

[bonneyman]

Bought this unusually short Bonney MEB10 shown in the middle to complete a set. Measures around 4-1/2" long. 1967 and 1977 on line catalogs list the MEB10 length at 5-3/16" (131.8mm). Is it possible Bonney used an MEB9 blank for the middle wrench?

Beautiful grab! The metrics in good condition are not easy to find. I've had to settle for a Bonney-made Matco 10mm to fill a whole in my set.

I have seen other wrenches (the angle wrenches come to mind) that seem to be one size blank for more than one size. Could be with other wrench styles.

 

[Mikeske]

I have a complete set of both the short in Industrial black and the longs in chrome. I did notice the same thing that some of the wrench’s were in similar size in relation to each other.

 

[Slackmaster G]

I bought a bunch of bonnies at a garage in a very affluent neighborhood for about 50 cents a piece. That’s the only way I could ever afford bonney’s

 

[swshawaii]

Appears later production Bonney polished combination wrenches are shorter than earlier models. Matco catalog shows the Bonney made Matco WC10M2 (10mm) is 4-25/32" long.

 

[Macduf]

got a set of 1/4 sockets, look cad coated. would these be war time production?

 

[LesserSon]

I have seen...one size blank for more than one size.

+1
And if you crawl through the catalogs, there are points where Bonney changed which blank (overall length) was used for sizes on a cusp.
And they had both long and short pattern combo wrenches, not always distinguished with “L” suffix to the model number.
And through much of their history, they offered special order tools, as a last-resort explanation.
I’m pretty sure other manufacturers made adjustments to their wrenches over the years, too. I’m pretty sure I’ve got some Barcalo combos.

 

[Jack84]

Are Bonney tools made in Canada also?


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[LesserSon]

Macduf, catalog illustrations I’ve seen are either not detailed enough or were re-used for years after presumable design changes. And sockets weren’t date-code marked. So no help on those fronts. Cad plating could be war, but also earlier, and sometimes later (at least on some tools, and special orders).
I think “war-time” is perfectly plausible, but probably not prove-able. Maybe militaria collectors/experts will offer s their opinions?