Square D QO or HOM??

[ScottC]

I'm building a 26x30 detached garage and it's time to start the rough-in electrical. The garage will have a 100A subpanel off of my 200A service. I'm trying to decide between Square D QO and HOM equipment. What are the differences or reasons to go with one or the other??

Thanks, Scott

 

[PAToyota]

Short answer, the HOM series is Square D's "value" line. Read less expensive.

I went with the QO series for my shop. Depending on what you plan to do out there, you're likely going to be pulling larger loads than what you would see in a typical residential application. I'd go for the added quality.

I also like the Visi-Trip feature of the QO - makes it easy to see which one has tripped.

If you want to compare features, here are the listings:

Homeline: http://www.squared.com/us/squared/corporate_info.nsf/unid/ECA90110AB7098CA85256A3A007091D7/$file/productsa2zFrameset.htm

QO: http://www.squared.com/us/products/load_centers.nsf/unid/86101FC06D1F38E285256AF40074B5B7/$file/qoloadcentershome.htm

 

[bmwpower]

I went with QO, too.

The breakers also have 2 taps such that you can run 2 circuits off of one breaker. Might come in handy for expanding.

 

[Fast Orange]

Whoa-BMW
Although you can get a pair of wires under the clamps on a QO,it's a code violation and does not provide any capability for expansion.Even if it were permissable to put two wires on a breaker lug,the combined load of both "circuits" could only be the breakers rating.
If your panel is full,AND the panel is listed for use with"twin" breakers,you can install a twin breaker that allows two separate circuits to only use 1 full size pole space. A twin breaker is two separate breakers built into the size of a standard breaker.
As for the HOM vs QO,I concur that for use in a garage/shop environment,the QO is the better breaker.If you're going to have heavy loads such as a large compressor or welder,I'd take it up a notch and go to QOB bolt in breakers-much less chance of burning breakers or the panel buss due to loss of contact pressure on the push in breakers.

George

 

[bmwpower]

Whoa-BMW
Although you can get a pair of wires under the clamps on a QO,it's a code violation and does not provide any capability for expansion.Even if it were permissable to put two wires on a breaker lug,the combined load of both "circuits" could only be the breakers rating.
If your panel is full,AND the panel is listed for use with"twin" breakers,you can install a twin breaker that allows two separate circuits to only use 1 full size pole space. A twin breaker is two separate breakers built into the size of a standard breaker.
As for the HOM vs QO,I concur that for use in a garage/shop environment,the QO is the better breaker.If you're going to have heavy loads such as a large compressor or welder,I'd take it up a notch and go to QOB bolt in breakers-much less chance of burning breakers or the panel buss due to loss of contact pressure on the push in breakers.

George

It's not a code violation if the manufacturer provides the ability to use it that way.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6150

 

[Fast Orange]

BMW-
I don't have a codebook handy at the moment,plus I'm out of popcorn from all of the recent high drama threads,but believe me,as an electrician with 16 years of experience in the field,there is an article in the code that prohibits the use of more than one wire in a mechanical pressure terminal unless the terminal is specifically listed and labelled for said use.The fact that the SqD terminal appears designed to be used that way doesn't make it so.
I have seen many breakers with multiple wires under one lug,have installed new breakers to fix that situation,and have seen inspectors fail jobs because of prexisting situations like that.

George

 

[Aceman]

Fast Orange,

BMW is correct. QO breakers ARE listed to be used with 2 wires under one pressure terminal. The code reference you're looking for is 110.14 (A) which states "terminals for more than one conductor shall be so identified."

 

[Charles (in GA)]

According to the Square D literature

http://ecatalog.squared.com/catalog/174/html/sections/01/17401002.html#100265

QO single pole breakers, 10 to 30 amp are designed for either one 14 to 8 gauge cu/al wire or two 14 to 10 gauge cu only wires. This is in table 1.3 "wire sizes" of the above link. The two wires is implied by the (2) preceding the wire size for single, double and triple pole QO breakers. I doubt they would provide this information if the breaker was not designed and rated for it.

Charles

Aceman beat me to it.

 

[Roospike]

QO vs Homeline .

Dont know , I have QO on the house and Homeline in the shop.

When i moved into this home the new garage ( 2 years old at the time ) was already up and hade the homeline installed and the house had some old chit that was just way out of date . New panel and all new breakers on the house.

My shop runs homeline with a 80 amp for the 7.5 hp compressor a few double 110s a 50 amo for a welder a 30 amp for the A/C a 60 amp 220 service spare and the rest are 20 amp singles.

Out of all the years i have owned the QO and the Homeline so far the only difference has been the price of install and i run a business out of my shop with the homeline running it.

 

[markb1]

With a brand that is not listed and labeled for two conductors per breaker you can wire nut the two wires and pig-tail a (one) lead to the breaker to accomplish the same thing.

I do this a lot after the home inspector hired by realtors come through and site the double lugging of breakers.

Splicing in a panel is OK with the NEC and this is a legal correction.

In my opinion one wire per breaker is much better listed or not.

 

[Junkman]

I have only Square D QO breakers in all my panels. I have one main panel and 3 sub panels off of that one. I like the QO breakers because they are not that expensive when you shop on eBay. I also like the way that the amperage is marked, and you can visually tell when a breaker has popped.

 

[Fast Orange]

This is the first I've seen of that table in SqD's catalog.It does imply that two wires are OK in that terminal,but I doubt very much that an inspector will pass it.I know that several inspectors in different areas have failed panels due to double wires on these breakers.They have always stood by one wire to a terminal,allowing pigtailing into the breaker or requiring another breaker.
Regardless,this does not imply additional capability for future expansion as BMW implied.
One thing that is implied by the SqD chart,that is 100% NOT allowed by code is that two 14 ga wires could be landed on a 30 amp breaker.By no means should a wire of insufficient ampacity be connected to a breaker.
Thanks for the information,guys,but I"ll stick to one wire to a breaker terminal.

George

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I stopped in Home Depot this afternoon, and looked at Square D QO breakers. On the side of the breaker, molded right into the bakelite is two illustrations of the wire terminal. One shows one wire, and has 14-8 AL/CU next to it, while the image below it shows two wires on the terminal, and has 14-10 CU next to it. Its right on the breaker if an inspector has any question about it. Remember, this is only applicable to single, double and triple pole full width breakers up to and including 30 amps. This does not apply to the duplex breakers nor any breaker larger than 30 amp.

Its possible to have a breaker with "too small" wire on it if it is a dedicated motor circuit where you size the breaker at 250% of FLC, so there is reason to specify the full range of wires the terminal can accomodate, whether legal in a particular installation or not.

Charles

 

[Lloydthumper]

LOL I just bought mine yesterday I bought the HOM series 200 amp service. It has 40 spaces in the panel and came with I think 20 breakers already in it. I don't really think I would care about being able to run more than one circuit from a breaker I am a wire nut. If I don't think I will use 40 circuits I doubt anyone else would either. You figuare one or two for lighting one or two for recepticles one or two for a welder(s) one or two for a compressor one or two for a lift one or two for garage door openers. and a couple for misc stuff maybe and with breakers a couple dollars each I still have plenty of space to go. As far as the quality Reliability is the same. Just don't overload the circuits that is what kills breakers (Heat) the extra little features is personal preferance.This thread started out with a new construction if there is a question about if you can run more than one circuit in a breaker there should have been a larger service bought to begin with. (Ok I know that is not what the discussion was about)

 

[markb1]

Its possible to have a breaker with "too small" wire on it if it is a dedicated motor circuit where you size the breaker at 250% of FLC,

Charles[/QUOTE]

Nec 310.4 Conductors 1/0 and larger may be run in parallel.

Wires smaller must meet exceptions to 310.4
Mark

 

[Lloydthumper]

On the outside looking in 99% of the people on this board will never run anything above a 5hp compressor in some cases a 10 hp and a Mig welder. I don't think most have anything to worry about.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

On the outside looking in 99% of the people on this board will never run anything above a 5hp compressor in some cases a 10 hp and a Mig welder. I don't think most have anything to worry about.

Quite true, but given the slight difference in initial cost, it doesn't make sense to go with anything less than a 40 space 200 amp panel and service if you possibly can.

Charles

 

[PAToyota]

On the outside looking in 99% of the people on this board will never run anything above a 5hp compressor in some cases a 10 hp and a Mig welder. I don't think most have anything to worry about.

You might be surprised at who is on this board. Take a look at Passmore's Circle 41, Chaz's Strange Days, Reflexx's Garage Mahal, OldCarGuy's New Toy Shop, and W-Cummins' Obsession and tell me about electrical loads...

Me, I'm running a 100amp circuit for the TIG welder, 50amp for the plasma and MIG, 40amp for the compressor...

Much better to spend the few extra bucks up front for quality than to either have a problem or end up redoing it down the road...

If I don't think I will use 40 circuits I doubt anyone else would either.

That's pretty limiting for the rest of us...

 

[bmwpower]

All you guys with 200A boxes in the garage, what kind of box is in the house...400A?

 

[bmwpower]

Quite true, but given the slight difference in initial cost, it doesn't make sense to go with anything less than a 40 space 200 amp panel and service if you possibly can.

Charles

I don't remember what the cost delta is between a 100A and 200A boxes, but the wire cost is significant, is it not?

 

[Steve in Mi]

If I don't think I will use 40 circuits I doubt anyone else would either.

You would be wrong.

 

[ScottC]

WOW! As usual, a wealth of information here around my seemingly simple decision. Guess I'll go with the QO equipment.

bmwpower: Yes, box prices pale in comparison to wire prices these days!!!

Thanks for the education...

 

[Charles (in GA)]

All you guys with 200A boxes in the garage, what kind of box is in the house...400A?

My house is total electric (2100 sq/ft log house), so the heat pump draws some but the potential of the backup strips coming on is probably the biggest draw, and the stove and water heater. Beyond that, a few lights. I have 200 amp service on the house and 200 amp service on the shop, separate meters. One a couple of doors down has a 320 amp meter and two 150 panels and separate disconnects for each. One or two houses in the neighborhood have 400 amp meters and supply 200 amps to the house, and 200 amps to the shop.

I really cannot imagine paying the electric bill if you were using this capability often. Mine's going to be bad enough this time around, having set up the new blast cabinet the day they read the meter last month.

Charles

 

[PAToyota]

All you guys with 200A boxes in the garage, what kind of box is in the house...400A?

My setup is a C320 meter base - essentially a 400amp base (80% of 400 is 320) - from there it splits to a 200amp panel in the house and a 200amp panel in the shop. The power for the shop does not go through the house panel.

 

[Lloydthumper]

You might be surprised at who is on this board. Take a look at Passmore's Circle 41, Chaz's Strange Days, Reflexx's Garage Mahal, OldCarGuy's New Toy Shop, and W-Cummins' Obsession and tell me about electrical loads...

Me, I'm running a 100amp circuit for the TIG welder, 50amp for the plasma and MIG, 40amp for the compressor...

Much better to spend the few extra bucks up front for quality than to either have a problem or end up redoing it down the road...



That's pretty limiting for the rest of us...

I have a 200amp service with 40 spaces. But I doubt very seriously unless your running a very productive business out of your garage I very very seriously doubt your going to be stressing a 200 amp service and if you are you need to check into going 3 phase because your are not running a home garage anymore and the machines your running warnts more power. I have seen a guy weld with two welders at the same time but most people really don't need to. I have a mig welder a stick welder and a plasma cutter two 5hp compressors and a pretty good size metal bandsaw and I am not worried about it.

 

[PAToyota]

Again, you may want to take a look at some of the shops mentioned before touting who may or may not need something...

Personally, I'm not going to pay the demand charges for 3-phase for the couple weekends a month I'm really using the power out in my shop - that would be cost prohibitive because it is just my home shop and I'm not running a business out of it.

Am I stressing the 200amp service I have at the shop? Probably not. But when I'm downstairs stick welding plate with the Syncrowave and have it cranked up while my father has come over and is upstairs using the wood shop with the air compressor cycling, 220V dust collector running, and using the 220V tablesaw or planer I'd prefer to err on the cautious side.

 

[Cuprousworks]

Is the limit of 40 per house or per box?

I have a main with two sub panels, am I limited to 40 for all three?

Mike

 

[PAToyota]

Forty per panel.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Actually NEC 408.35 allows a max of 42 breakers per appliance and lighting panelboard "(other than those provided for for the mains)".

A two pole breaker (ie: 240V) is considered two breakers, and a a three pole breaker (three phase use) is considered three breakers (per code).

That being said, every panelboard for residential or light commercial that I've seen in person or in catalogs always seems to have a max of 40, rather than 42, not sure why, but I'm sure there is a reason.

Charles

 

[W-Cummins]

Actually NEC 408.35 allows a max of 42 breakers per appliance and lighting panelboard "(other than those provided for for the mains)".

That being said, every panelboard for residential or light commercial that I've seen in person or in catalogs always seems to have a max of 40, rather than 42, not sure why, but I'm sure there is a reason.

Charles

Both of my SqD nf panels have 42 breakers in them and are actually 54 position boards that your not "allowed" (in the us) to use the extra slots for breakers. On the extra top locations ( 8 up and 8 down) is the powerlink g3-2000 controller and the g3 power supply, the latter is attached to and is powered from the bus.

William...

 

[dstryr]

QO and HOM employ the same trip mechanisms. The QO has the visible trip indicator and a unique bus bar stab that SQD feels offers better long-term clamping to the bus and therefore a more reliable connection. A poor connection means heat and potentialburning/arcing. For a residential/garage application you won't go wrong with either panel.