Squaring stood walls with plumb bob

[justinadams02]

Lets say you're in a situation where you have unsheathed walls stood up, but you're not confident they are square and checking diagonals is not practical for whatever reason . While checking for plumb, could you not check for square as well as long as the top and bottom plate are the same length? If distance from end of wall and plumb string are the same at top and bottom plate, wall should be square it seems. Anybody ever done this or see a big error in my thinking?

 

[Rc_Guy]

Line laser

 

[Professor Fate]

You could use a level to check plumb in both directions and brace the wall, than sheet. We've used plumb bobs for checking walls perpendicular to the plane of the wall especially on really tall walls, but a six foot level is adequate for plumbing the wall in the plane.

 

[justinadams02]

Line laser

I don't have one. I know they're pretty affordable now. Have a suggestion on a model? Also will a be able to see it during the day? Saw a video where you use a pre-marked welding helmet glass insert to measure off the top plate so you're not fiddling with a tape measure. Seemed like a good idea.

 

[justinadams02]

You could use a level to check plumb in both directions and brace the wall, than sheet. We've used plumb bobs for checking walls perpendicular to the plane of the wall especially on really tall walls, but a six foot level is adequate for plumbing the wall in the plane.

I've got walls 15' tall. I can get an 8' level and find a long straight edge to aid it I suppose.

 

[Jackfre]

A plumb bob is an excellent option for this job.

 

[firebirdparts]

No, it's possible for a building to have vertical walls and not be square. A building could have vertical walls and be round.

NOW: If the foundation is square, and normally that's where you actually would check, then yes: If the foundation is square, where you have something actually measurable, like a stem wall or a basement, then you plumb everything and honestly you'd probably not check squareness at the top of the wall, ever.

 

[jrsavoie]

I stsrted using a laser plumb bob. Decades ago. I rarely got the string out after that.

I believe they are pretty reasonable now.

 

[justinadams02]

No, it's possible for a building to have vertical walls and not be square. A building could have vertical walls and be round.

NOW: If the foundation is square, and normally that's where you actually would check, then yes: If the foundation is square, where you have something actually measurable, like a stem wall or a basement, then you plumb everything and honestly you'd probably not check squareness at the top of the wall, ever.

I'm trying to figure out if individual walls are square. I squared the chalk lines for the bottom plates up with 3,4,5 triangles.

 

[Rc_Guy]

I don't have one. I know they're pretty affordable now. Have a suggestion on a model? Also will a be able to see it during the day? Saw a video where you use a pre-marked welding helmet glass insert to measure off the top plate so you're not fiddling with a tape measure. Seemed like a good idea.

We used Bosch at work when I worked, I still borrow one out of our sons work truck now and then

 

[wssix99]

I've got walls 15' tall. I can get an 8' level and find a long straight edge to aid it I suppose.

Why can't you measure the diagonals? If you don't have a tape measure, you can use a piece of string. You can also section the wall off. Measure 15 feet from the corner at the top and bottom and then measure that intermediate diagonal. (You don't need to run the full length of the wall.)

 

[justinadams02]

Why can't you measure the diagonals? If you don't have a tape measure, you can use a piece of string. You can also section the wall off. Measure 15 feet from the corner at the top and bottom and then measure that intermediate diagonal. (You don't need to run the full length of the wall.)

I'm usually working solo, so was looking for an alternative that might be faster and not require getting the end of a tape perfectly affixed up in a corner. The string is a good idea and might not be terribly time consuming.

 

[wssix99]

^ That's how I do it solo. The nice thing about a string is that you can tack it down or knot it around something else that will hold in a corner better than a tape measure. (Or even a helper helping you out!)

One downside of the string is that they can stretch. Using something like polypropelene line (like electricians fishing line) would give you better results. Nylon or cotton string will not help you get to a square product unless you are perfect on how much you pull and stretch the line.

 

[rayra]

Lets say you're in a situation where you have unsheathed walls stood up, but you're not confident they are square and checking diagonals is not practical for whatever reason . While checking for plumb, could you not check for square as well as long as the top and bottom plate are the same length? If distance from end of wall and plumb string are the same at top and bottom plate, wall should be square it seems. Anybody ever done this or see a big error in my thinking?

" checking diagonals is not practical for whatever reason "

That's just flat out nonsense said to justify your thought exercise. Square true and plumb are not interchangeable terms.

Stand the walls. Fasten the floor plates. Use the 3-4-5 method - in whatever distance increments fits in your layout - to ensure the perpendicular wall is truly at a right angle to the base / exterior wall, then fasten that sill plate.
Then plumb your walls before attaching their top plates.
Re-check them for plumb before attaching ceiling joists, AFTER setting the joists.

 

[jrsavoie]

^ That's how I do it solo. The nice thing about a string is that you can tack it down or knot it around something else that will hold in a corner better than a tape measure. (Or even a helper helping you out!)

One downside of the string is that they can stretch. Using something like polypropelene line (like electricians fishing line) would give you better results. Nylon or cotton string will not help you get to a square product unless you are perfect on how much you pull and stretch the line.

Spider Wire doesn't stretch much.

 

[jmdirk]

Lets say you're in a situation where you have unsheathed walls stood up, but you're not confident they are square and checking diagonals is not practical for whatever reason . While checking for plumb, could you not check for square as well as long as the top and bottom plate are the same length? If distance from end of wall and plumb string are the same at top and bottom plate, wall should be square it seems. Anybody ever done this or see a big error in my thinking?

Using a level to check for plumb will not be very accurate, especially if it's a long wall.

The theory your going by in that if opposing sides are the same length and perfectly vertical and if top and bottom are the same length as well, then the wall must be square is correct. The problem becomes in the accuracy of the measuring tools. If you're out even half a degree over 8 ft, that's ~7/8" off. But a plumb bob can get you right on.

The diagonal method is popular because it's quick and accurate. The string method someone mentioned is great. Usually much easier to deal with and attach over long distances solo

 

[Michigan Mike]

Thats how I did my shop 20' x28'. I set all four walls. Hung my plumb bob in the corner. That allowed me to plumb the walls both directions out of the corner. Plumbed and braced those two walls . Moved the bob to the opposite corner and did it again. I was sure the masonary stub wall I built on was flat and level but even if it wasn't I would still prefer plumb over square. After I was all done I did check plumb with my six foot level it was dead nuts on. My walls were 2x6 studs eight foot tall setting on a sixteen inch stub wall. I was not interested in setting them with the sheathing on.

 

[justinadams02]

I experimented a bit with the plumb bob this afternoon. I draped the bob's string over a top plate of a wall I know is not square and measured the distance from the bob's string to the end of the wall. I marked that distance on the bottom plate and pulled the top of the wall until the plumb bob came into line with my bottom plate mark. Checked diagonals with string and it squared it up nicely. No re-measuring diagonals; I just pulled until the bob lined up with the mark.

I'm trying to remove any tendency within the wall section itself towards a rhombus. I think this is called squaring.

 

[dffay]

I’m with y’all doing it the ‘Amish’ way. Perfectly fine and refined throughout the ages.
How did the pyramids and Empire State Building and Golden Gate Bridge etc., get built without a laser level?

 

[wrenchguy]

If everything is exacto as you describe your method is fine.

 

[andyvh1959]

To do it solo would this work: walls up, bolted down at the sill plate, attach a 5' diagonal in a corner on 3' - 4' points on both the top and bottom, hang a plumb bob from the top 5' diagonal at a 2.5' foot mark, and the plumb bob should align to a 2.5' mark on the bottom diagonal, and also not hang "inside" of the mark on the lower diagonal. Use ratchet straps to pull the tops of the walls until the plumb bob aligns to the mark and then finalize it by installing the top plate.

 

[PugetDude]

OP, ignore all the bad advice above; here's the proper way to do it.

 

[Toolfool]

OP, ignore all the bad advice above; here's the proper way to do it.

Inspiring.

 

[justinadams02]

OP, ignore all the bad advice above; here's the proper way to do it.

I do have an outdoor camera out there recording the build. I can only hope it is this entertaining. He's got his door in!

 

[justinadams02]

To do it solo would this work: walls up, bolted down at the sill plate, attach a 5' diagonal in a corner on 3' - 4' points on both the top and bottom, hang a plumb bob from the top 5' diagonal at a 2.5' foot mark, and the plumb bob should align to a 2.5' mark on the bottom diagonal, and also not hang "inside" of the mark on the lower diagonal. Use ratchet straps to pull the tops of the walls until the plumb bob aligns to the mark and then finalize it by installing the top plate.

You could pull tension on the strap until you see slack in the plumb line. I like this idea. You think keep the diagnols loose while adjusting then torque their screws down once square?

 

[andyvh1959]

Hmm, I would screw the lower diagonal tight, upper diagonal snug clamped in place with bar clamps or c-clamps. The upper diagonal would be longer than the 5' distance. After marking the 5' distance on the diagonal I'd allow another 6" past each mark. On the lower diagonal I'd scribe a line on the vertical and horizontal face. Then set the point of the plumb bob just off the lower diagonal. With the line on the both faces of the lower diagonal it could give me a reference for which wall moves which way to achieve aiignment as I use a ratchet strap to pulls the walls tops into position. At the 3' and 4' marks at the top of the wall where the diagonal meets the marks, I'd extend the marks onto the diagonal before pulling anything into square/plumb. That way if the marks go out of alignment I'd have a reference of displacement.

 

[alinc100]

As far as lasers go start here: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/laser-level.487686/post-9264301

 

[jrsavoie]

I have some turnbuckles with nail plates welded on the ends. Then I screwed 2x4's to them. Works great for holding/adjusting walls and forms.

 

[htmdude57]

OMG Justin. Is that the famous "Shed from hell"? Was that from this forum years ago? I can't remember where I saw it, but someone was recording their foreign (unhandy) neighbor building a shed using the worst building techniques. It was a long running streaming thread that had hundreds of updates and responses from forum members. Anybody else have the same flashback?

 

[PWC Repair]

That is definately the 'shed of doom' LOL!! Best build ever!!

3 4 5 method and check diagonal corners has always worked for me. And a plumb bob is a valuable tool as well.

 

[KenC]

I experimented a bit with the plumb bob this afternoon. I draped the bob's string over a top plate of a wall I know is not square and measured the distance from the bob's string to the end of the wall. I marked that distance on the bottom plate and pulled the top of the wall until the plumb bob came into line with my bottom plate mark. Checked diagonals with string and it squared it up nicely. No re-measuring diagonals; I just pulled until the bob lined up with the mark.

I'm trying to remove any tendency within the wall section itself towards a rhombus. I think this is called squaring.

Probably just me, but that is plumbing and not the pipe kind, making things vertical kind. Squaring is usually used to describe measuring in a horizontal plane in my world. Of course, in your case they mean the same thing but would be misunderstood on most jobsites.
If both plates are the same length and one end stud is perfectly vertical and standing on a perfectly horizontal base, the wall section is square and plumb in the vertical plane.

Doesn't make any difference how you get there. I've always used a level, one that gets checked frequently, for level and plumb. Rip a piece of lumber perfectly straight and long enough to reach from top to bottom plate. Attach a small block to each end. Use those blocks against the plates to avoid any warp or twist in the stud and use the level against it.

 

[Renegade1LI]

As a GC we built a lot of homes, every framer that worked for me did it pretty much the same way. Everything is layed out and cut to dimension, wall sections framed on deck and stood up. Lock perpendicular wall section, level corners, brace and install next section. With the corners plumbed string line along the plate shim and level with laser. Once they were plumb, straight and level they would sheath them. Never saw a framer take out a plumb bob or laser, the framers move fast, it’s a fine line between precision and production and framing is not about precision.

 

[andyvh1959]

Can understand that. I was the GC on my 24x28 garage build. I hired the site prep, slab and masonry (two rows of 8" block around the perimeter), and the walls framed up (OSB on the outside) and the trusses set on the top plate. When I set the truss spacing, and stick built the front and rear hips myself, I found the east wall was 1.75" longer than the west wall, front wall at the NW corner not plumb. I made up for it after finalizing the truss spacing and sheeting the roof. All finished out ok, but it pissed me off to pay for it.

 

[jrsavoie]

As a GC we built a lot of homes, every framer that worked for me did it pretty much the same way. Everything is layed out and cut to dimension, wall sections framed on deck and stood up. Lock perpendicular wall section, level corners, brace and install next section. With the corners plumbed string line along the plate shim and level with laser. Once they were plumb, straight and level they would sheath them. Never saw a framer take out a plumb bob or laser, the framers move fast, it’s a fine line between precision and production and framing is not about precision.

We always sheated before standing the walls up.

 

[Renegade1LI]

We always sheated before standing the walls up.

They might might of sheathed some, we built so many so fast.

 

[jrsavoie]

They might might of sheathed some, we built so many so fast.

For fast, i don't know how sheating a standing wall can be faster than sheeting on a deck. But then I never worked with more than a handful of guys.

 

[Renegade1LI]

For fast, i don't know how sheating a standing wall can be faster than sheeting on a deck.

Framer we used subed out the sheeting, whole separate crew, there's a lot more interior wall framing on condos.

 

[nmk_61802]

and standing on a perfectly horizontal base

Key point here... if your base isn't perfectly level, a plumb stud (parallel with the wall) will not indicate a square wall.