Stabilizing 220 voltage?

[zenit]

For a year or so, I've been having some voltage fluctuation/brown-out issues in my house. This is just a minor issue with house appliances (who cares if the blender occasionally trips a breaker?), but it's been annoying with my 220v welder and mini-mill/lathe(110v).

Ideally, I'd like a way regulate/stabilize the voltage. If I could find a way to get a steady 220 current at least 50 amps, I could turn down it down to 110.

Does anyone have any suggestions/reccomendations as to a voltage regulator/rectifier? I wouldn't mind some electrical housekeeping if it doesn't involve a lot of work with the mains or the box. I don't think I swing that with my landlord.

More Info:
1. This is rental house built in the 1950's. The wiring is a mess. The brown-outs seem to be linked to the central A/C the refrigerator kicking in. I'm pretty sure the electrical box is little overloaded for this house already.

2. I have a single 220 three wire setup for my welder and one 110 for everything else in the garage.

3. My research has led me to a few different brands of regulator/stabilizers that look like this (http://www.220-electronics.com/volt...p-up-step-down-stabilizer-diamond-series.html), but I can't tell the difference.

 

[Thumper68]

I had a similar issue in my shop, every time I started up the 5hp table saw all the lights would dim, not just mine but everyone fed from that transformer, the end solution was that the power co came out and replaced the transformer, end brown outs.

 

[rockwithjason]

you may only have 60 or 100 amps at the panel and the wire is probably undersized by modern standards. the only really effective way would be a panel and feeder upgrade. i didn't see anything in your link that would provide what you are after. you could get a ups unit that will deliver 50 amps but your wallet will take a pretty good hit. all other solutions will be in the hands of the utility. you could put in a call to the customer service department and see if they will come out and take a look.

 

[zenit]

I'll do that tomorrow!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is the garage attached or detached? If attached, then the brown outs could either be the PoCo's transformer is old and/or undersized, the main feeder wires in the service entrance are too small and when there is a large demand, the voltage sags because the wire cant handle the load('it takes volts to push amps'). Also, the lights dimming when the A/C kicks on isnt all that unusual because when motors start, they draw 6-8x more current for a split second than they do when running. I used to live in a house that did that but the wiring was fine.

If the garage is detached, then the feeder wires for the garage are possibly too small to handle the load and thats why theres voltage drop.

 

[zenit]

It's an attached garage.

 

[G_P]

Call the power company.
Also ask your neighbors if they have the same problems.


Sent via carrier pigeon.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Do you pay the PoCo bill ? They are obligated (by the state public utility commission) to provide you with "reasonably" constant voltage.

My Dad had the same problem. It did take him a few times to convince the PoCo that there was a voltage problem, but they finally watched the voltage while the water pump kicked in. When they saw it drop to 90 volts (on a 120V leg) they were convinced. The issue was an undersized transformer for the number of houses drawing power.

 

[theoldwizard1]

For a year or so, I've been having some voltage fluctuation/brown-out issues in my house. This is just a minor issue with house appliances (who cares if the blender occasionally trips a breaker?), but it's been annoying with my 220v welder and mini-mill/lathe(110v).

Ideally, I'd like a way regulate/stabilize the voltage. If I could find a way to get a steady 220 current at least 50 amps, I could turn down it down to 110.

The term "Power Conditioner" and/or "Voltage Regulator" are not "exact" definitions and may mean different things to different people.

"Back in the day", when a min-computer was the size of 4 or 5 household refrigerators (VAX 11/780) there was a type of power conditioners that was a transformer, but with a third coil of wire. This coil was controlled by a separate computer. When this coil was unpowered, the output voltage was lower than the input voltage. Adding a small amount of current to this coil added additional magnetic flux to main transformer so it could bring the output voltage up to the necessary voltage. More current/flux would take of voltage sags, less would handle overvoltage. These were not designed to handle very fast occurring dips or spikes, but could handle persistent under/over voltage conditions.

These things were huge (much larger than your welder) and probably cost many times more than your welder.

I'm sure something like this exists today, but you can not afford it !

 

[wyliesdiesels]

To me, a power conditioner is a device that filters noise and transients, AND regulates its output voltage. A voltage regulator, on the other hand, JUST regulates output voltage!

It's an attached garage.

As others have said, i would start with calling the PoCo. And if u have a multimeter with a min/max feature, you could hook up your multimeter to the lugs on the main breaker, set the dial to A/C volts and turn the minimum feature on. Then go strike an arc and also kick the A/C on, then go back to your meter and look to see how low the voltage got. Most PoCos have a +/- 5% policy (228v-252v). If youre dipping much below that, then they SHOULD definitely fix the issue!!

 

[gatchel]

Do you pay the PoCo bill ? They are obligated (by the state public utility commission) to provide you with "reasonably" constant voltage.

My Dad had the same problem. It did take him a few times to convince the PoCo that there was a voltage problem, but they finally watched the voltage while the water pump kicked in. When they saw it drop to 90 volts (on a 120V leg) they were convinced. The issue was an undersized transformer for the number of houses drawing power.

Around here, the PoCo says %5 tolerance on 120v so that's 114v to 126v.

OP,

If you are having problems that you think are power company related request to have a recording voltmeter installed on your transformer. That will tell them all they need to know.


I had issues in the summer when the utility was under high demand. They immediately replaced the pole transformer. It got better, but it still didn't fix the problem. I was persistent and recorded times and how long the issue was noticeable and they eventually found out that the tap on the 3 phase lines several blocks away from me had to be moved to a different phase. The phase we were on was overloaded.

Persistence pays off. I had to make a total of 4 or 5 calls to get the issue resolved over a month or so.

 

[Rookie2]

if the neighbors aren't having problems then it your panel or in the wiring !

 

[Gary S]

My WAG is that you either are underwired, or you have a bad ground in your system. Start with your power company and have them take a look at things. Then, use their recommendations to make improvements.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you are having problems that you think are power company related request to have a recording voltmeter installed on your transformer. That will tell them all they need to know.
.
.
.
Persistence pays off. I had to make a total of 4 or 5 calls to get the issue resolved over a month or so.

I couldn't have said it better !

 

[Kevin C]

I have only seen one power stabilizer that was 100%. It was at a research company that I worked at. It consisted of a huge electric motor driving a generator with a 2000 lb fly wheel to even things out.

All the lab equipment ran off the generator. At the far end, the system had a 12 cylinder diesel with a clutch. If the power dropped for more than .1 seconds the clutch engaged and diesel was at full speed in .25 seconds. At that point it was powering the generator.

There were two more generators for redundancy. I was there more than ten years and we never had a single blip in our power.

I would call the power company.

 

[SiGmA_X]

We had similar issues at my folks cabin. Turned out a tree damaged the neutral, it had 1 of 12 (I think? I forget. Whatever a 200amp service installed in the 90s would have in Skagit WA) strands. Definitely only 1 left! The PoCo found some damage on a hot too, repaired everything, and the problem persisted but far less often. Now there are new wires, and we've been problem free for 4 months.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My WAG is that you either are underwired, or you have a bad ground in your system.Start with your power company and have them take a look at things. Then, use their recommendations to make improvements.

A bad ground would NEVER cause this issue! Grounds are for safety only and only carry current when a fault occurs!

 

[zenit]

Thanks all, for the helpful advice.

Here's the outcome so far:
- I missed their business hours Tuesday and I couldn't reach them by phone, instead I sent them an email, which was answered this morning. This afternoon around 2pm (judging by the reset clocks) a technician was sent out and he at least cleaned up exterior wiring. The transformer looks just as dirty as ever, so I'm sure it wasn't replaced.
I sent another message to power company asking about detail and notes about the visit.

If they didn't take voltage readings, I'll ask them to provide a recording voltmeter or take my own measurements.

Fascinating to hear about the lab generator!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If the transformer is dirty, its probably leaking from one of the bushings which means it probably overheated at some point, which is caused by overloading. I used to see leaking overheated transformers all the time when i use to live in PG&E's territory. I called a few of 'em in and they replaced 'em, especially the older ones that were filled w/ toxic PCB oil. Can u take a pic and post it here?

I would check voltage measurements yourself so u know whats going on and so u have more to go on when dealing with the PoCo.

 

[zenit]

So, the news from the Power Company is that standard operating procedure is first sending a technician out to clean up the connections first, and then if the problem persists they replace the transformer. Which is good, because I had some misgiving about the twistcap connectors on the line from the transformer.

At least I have them on record for saying that replacing the transformer is an option. I now need to find a multimeter with a min/max option so that I can gather some data about voltage fluctuation under heavy use. I haven't seen any brownouts yet.

I snap a picture tomorrow of the transformer. Really, I meant "rusty" vs "dirty". There's a sizeable rust stain on the side of the transformer.

 

[kursplat]

...I had some misgiving about the twistcap connectors on the line from the transformer...

pic of this also please, i'd love to see what they installed. you should see if any of your neighbors are having trouble too. chances are their houses have added load over the years too and everyone having the issue could indicate a where the problem is. secondary taps at the pole your fed from, secondary jumpers at the transformer or the can itself being overloaded. never know until you ask, it's amazing how long people will live with an electrical problem and not call the utility.

 

[theoldwizard1]

So, the news from the Power Company is that standard operating procedure is first sending a technician out to clean up the connections first, and then if the problem persists they replace the transformer. Which is good, because I had some misgiving about the twistcap connectors on the line from the transformer.

At least I have them on record for saying that replacing the transformer is an option.

WRITE IT DOWN ! The date you called and the date someone came out to service the power lines.

If you can find such a meter cheap go for it. I guarantee that the PoCo will NOT accept your finding, but they may convince them to install their own monitoring equipment,

These things take persistence !

 

[zenit]

Alright, picture time.

Transformer:
The rust is not very visible in the picture, but it is there, on the cap and below one of the panels.

Twistcap:

line to house connections:

 

[wyliesdiesels]

WTF! Wire nuts should NOT be used for service entrance/service drop connections!! Who made that splice with the blue wire nut?

Can u see any numbers on that can? The capacity would be 2 or 3 numbers followed by 'kva'?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Did the PoCo replace those connections ?

 

[zenit]

WTF! Wire nuts should NOT be used for service entrance/service drop connections!! Who made that splice with the blue wire nut?

I assume the power company did, before I moved into the house.

Can u see any numbers on that can? The capacity would be 2 or 3 numbers followed by 'kva'?

I'll get a closer look tomorrow!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So did they just cut those off when they were out there? Just gotta say that's really bad workmanship using wire nuts in that application!

 

[zenit]

Yup, they just trimmed that twist connector off and replaced it with a **** splice. I wish I had been there when the PoCo technician dropped by. That way I would have more details about what really happened.

 

[Kevin C]

Yup, they just trimmed that twist connector off and replaced it with a **** splice. I wish I had been there when the PoCo technician dropped by. That way I would have more details about what really happened.

I would love to see that connection after its taken apart. I'm having a hard time believing that could really be a twist nut. At least it was wrapped with electrical tape.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I would love to see that connection after its taken apart. I'm having a hard time believing that could really be a twist nut. At least it was wrapped with electrical tape.

If look at the first pic of the splice, u can clearly see that its a blue wire nut. And those may be the very reason why he was having voltage sagging issues!

 

[Jarcese]

I'm 100% sure that wire nut did not come from your POCO before you moved in and rust on the transformer means nothing as far as power quality. Oil from a bushing would be a good sign like wylie said, but not rust.

Very good chance that nut was your problem. Electricians do that **** around here all the time when they do work on the meter trough or panel. They break the splice to work it dead as they should, then they are too cheap to put a real connection up. I've seen wire nuts, clamps for junction boxes/panels, and even just wires twisted together. They will cut a few strands in order to twist the wire nut on so you're running your whole house on two or three strands per leg. Also, for any electricians that may be doing this work, cut the old splices out too.. Drives me insane when people ADD connections like whoever the electrician was that put wire nuts up did.

One more thing, those new connections are ****. We call them Insulinks or Sureshots and they are terrible. They are just one crimp so they don't carry full load and they let water in the connection. They may not be bad around there, but water in a connection and ice every year makes that a pretty temp connection.

 

[kursplat]

One more thing, those new connections are ****. We call them Insulinks or Sureshots and they are terrible. They are just one crimp so they don't carry full load and they let water in the connection. They may not be bad around there, but water in a connection and ice every year makes that a pretty temp connection.

there fine if installed correctly. a lot of guy's are lazy, or don't pay attention and crimp it in the wrong place, missing some of the connector inside the cover. and although the manufacturer probably doesn't recommend it, i'd tape those just like any service connection to keep water out. an electrician did the wire nuts, a utility wouldn't use those for temp work, even at a weatherhead

 

[Jarcese]

Yeah I guess it's more of a user error problem than the actual connection. Easy to screw up and just crimp the end. The bigger 1/0 and 3/0 ones are really bad at carrying load though. I do like the neutral tension type like in the picture with the wire nut.

I have a pretty good collection of bad weather head connections made up by electricians. I always take pictures of them with tape off after I change them so we have proof that it wasn't our fault when people complain. That's not to say we don't screw things up, but we always can tell who made the connections by the type that are up there.

 

[zenit]

I would love to see that connection after its taken apart. I'm having a hard time believing that could really be a twist nut. At least it was wrapped with electrical tape.

Picture as requested. It's pretty corroded.

there fine if installed correctly. a lot of guy's are lazy, or don't pay attention and crimp it in the wrong place, missing some of the connector inside the cover. and although the manufacturer probably doesn't recommend it, i'd tape those just like any service connection to keep water out. an electrician did the wire nuts, a utility wouldn't use those for temp work, even at a weatherhead

Additional pictures needed? Should I just look to make sure that that it's crimped in two places? I'm going to need a taller ladder to reach those connections.

Same thing with the transformer. I looks like there's some plaque/writing on the side of the transformer, but I can't read it from my ladder. I need either a taller ladder or a really good set of binoculars.

 

[Jarcese]

Not a good idea to try to keep getting closer to the transformer to read a tag. The writing is just the size and tag is size plus extra info. When I said those are one crimp connections, I meant one on each side so two total. I wouldn't worry about the connections anymore. Those connections will be fine for a while. Now go inside and turn on as much as you can and then top it off with the something that runs on 240v and a decent load if you have it, if not the microwave works good but will only test one half. I hair dryer is decent for moving around to test the other half. If your lights are still flickering then somebody has some more work to do. I multi meter is your best friend at this point. Test at the panel with a decent load on and you'll know for sure which side it is on. There still could be any number of things wrong, but those wire nuts would have stopped me dead in my tracks. I doubt the guy did any further troubleshooting after he saw those.

 

[zenit]

Will do.

I haven't noticed any issues today, even though it's been 106 degrees today and the AC was working most of the day. Today was a garage cleaning day, so no welding or heavy electrical use.

 

[RickP]

Will do.

I haven't noticed any issues today, even though it's been 106 degrees today and the AC was working most of the day. Today was a garage cleaning day, so no welding or heavy electrical use.

I hope your problem is fixed now. We had a similar brownout problem several years ago, and it turned out to be loose connections at the transformer. Keep on the PoCo until they fix it!


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[kursplat]

Not a good idea to try to keep getting closer to the transformer to read a tag. The writing is just the size and tag is size plus extra info. When I said those are one crimp connections, I meant one on each side so two total. I wouldn't worry about the connections anymore. Those connections will be fine for a while. Now go inside and turn on as much as you can and then top it off with the something that runs on 240v and a decent load if you have it, if not the microwave works good but will only test one half. I hair dryer is decent for moving around to test the other half. If your lights are still flickering then somebody has some more work to do. I multi meter is your best friend at this point. Test at the panel with a decent load on and you'll know for sure which side it is on. There still could be any number of things wrong, but those wire nuts would have stopped me dead in my tracks. I doubt the guy did any further troubleshooting after he saw those.

ya, please don't try to get closer to the transformer
go fire up everything that was on when you were having the problem and hit the garbage disposal a couple times, no flicker your good

 

[Teken]

What is the story with all the tree branches being so close to the power lines??

When I used to drive around different parts of the states it never ceased to amaze me the amount of branches literally covering, or with inches of the power lines.

People wonder why the power goes out when it gets windy!

Teken . . .

 

[Jarcese]

Theres a few reasons..

1. Tree trimming on private property is the customer's responsibility if they want good service. If they want to let the service burn up, then we will clear more than you want done to run a new service when the old one fails. We will remove something that falls hard on it, but no preventitive stuff on private property secondary services. When I feel like being a smart ***, I ask people if they would get their mail if they let a tree grow in front of their mailbox

2. Towns limit the tree trimming and blame it on the POCO when this **** hits the fan.

3. Investor owned companies don't want to spend money on it. Although they have been doing it a lot more lately now that we get a once in 30 years storms twice a year.