stains

[BurtEggley]

Going nuts here. About 2015 we noticed stains beginning around the toilets that were installed about 1998. We replaced the vinyl flooring. This is the third time we have been here now since 2015. Each time, the flange is checked and replaced if needed, the flooring is too and we start over. The last wax seals came from Ferguson Supply and were the highest quality and best I could get. The flange is anchored into the concrete with concrete screws. Inspecting the seal after removal, it always appears good but there is always moisture present around it, condensation I would guess. It is doing it again. The toilets do not rock. I have to find a solution to this problem. Can't keep replacing the vinyl floor and wax seals every three to four years. I might do a tile floor but that does not tell me why this is happening. Anyone else been thru this and discovered the cause and a fix? These are mounted on a concrete slab. The floor is always dry under the vinyl too. The stain will only be around the toilets, like moisture migrating thru the vinyl. The last flooring was fiberglass backed, which was supposed to reduce the risk of this happening. One troubling aspect is that the house was built in 1979. From 1979 to around 2015 this never happened. The toilets are Kohler 1.6 gallon and I am hesitant to replace them with 1.28 gallon. Maybe they have become porous and are letting moisture seep thru them? I dunno.

 

[BillK]

Are you by any chance caulking the toilets to the floor all the way around ? You really are not supposed to and I would think it might hold any moisture in from condensation.

Can you post a picture of the "stains" ? Will they not clean off the floor ?

 

[BurtEggley]

they are inside or under the laminate. I caulked all but about 6 inches at the back. I'll try to get a camera shot sometime today. The flooring is fiberglass backed vinyl sheet about 2 years old. I don't know either if the damaged area can be cut out and a new piece seamed in or whether we have to replace the whole bathroom again. That is also another question. We have good sized pieces and matching is no problem, just don't know if vinyl flooring today can be seamed.

 

[BillK]

I don't know where you are at or how cold the slab might be but I bet it is condensation. Especially if the cold water is really cold. Hard to believe that modern flooring would stain like that though.
Waiting for pics.

 

[JuncleJohn]

I’ve seen toilets with foam insulation lining on the inside of the tank. Possibly that would resolve any condensation issues.

Maybe install a new toilet with an insulated tank?

Just a thought.

John

 

[BurtEggley]

worse of the two. Backing is fiberglass and it wasn't supposed to stain. Not so much worried about the cost to replace it again as I am stopping it from happening another time. On a slab and the toilet is properly anchored. The best seal available from Ferguson was used, and it was plenty thick. I used straws on the bolts to guide the toilet down without the seal, then determined if it would rock, set shims, then repeated with the seal. When I set it, I put equal weight on it until it was seated on the floor and shims, then tightened. Sealed about 7/8th of it with clear silicone but left the back open. The bottom of the toilet has a horn that sits over the flange and it is aligned. We had the front cleanout on the home replaced about 4 years ago and nothing backs up into the house. Everything works well. The tub near it was checked for leaks by a licensed plumber before we did the new surrounds so the water is not leaking from there. The washer is a front loader and it uses very little water so it is not problem of the washer overloading the sewer. I had all the sewer lines in the house inspected for leaks underground about 8 years ago or so after we found a cracked ABS fitting in the kitchen drain. All were fine. Totally out of bullets on this one. It is the third or fourth time it has happened. I even had the plumber inspect the flange in the images below, and install a new one - and I inspected his work which was very good. I did set the toilets myself because he wanted too much to do it. He works for a commercial shop that goes off of a chart for some items, and he can't deviate on those items. Non-listed items he can cut me a good price on. The price on resetting a toilet assumes they remove, clean, reset flange, etc., I had already done the removal and clean up so it didn't make sense to pay full retail for that when I had already done half the work already. This is not my first rodeo replacing a toilet. No problems at all for 25 years or so until about 2016+/-. Since then it keeps happening. He did the one in the master bathroom maybe four years when we put in a new shower pan. It was part of the price to do the of the pan install. That installation leaked too a little after maybe two years. I watched him do that work and he was quite good at what he did, there was no defect in his work - AND I could see no problem with the seal when I pulled the toilet yet the vinyl was moldy against the slab near the drain. Also, the slab was dry under the shower pan when we changed it. So was the sand around that drain. There is moisture because the style flange I put in back in the 1990's is aluminum and abs - the aluminum was partially eaten. The house has underground drains all the way around it that drain standing water after rains, and the down spouts so I don't think it is water coming up under the slab either. Back in 1993 or so when I added outside drainage we could see water come out of the layers of hardpan for months. Since then it has stopped. The outside yard drains also have spots where they carry water away thru holes in the drains. I've also had them hydro jetted to clean them after years of use. Not a lot of debris came out so I don't think there is much water under the slab. The bathroom around the shower drain had the original plastic vapor barrier too, and what was exposed was still in good condition. When we pulled the vinyl flooring out last time to replace it, it was dry underneath as well. Same flooring is by back door and kitchen, next to toilets is the only place it stains. Anyone with ideas, I am listening.

 

[BurtEggley]

Here are marked photos where the edges of the stains are.

 

[BurtEggley]

my flooring guy came by. I bought extra intentionally in 2024 and we have enough left over from that install in 2024 to do both bathrooms again. He took a look, made some calls and what is happening is not supposed to be happening. The flooring type is supposed to prevent that staining. He is going to talk with the manufacturer to find out if they have seen it before and what the fix is supposed to be. As I wrote before, the same toilets and a cheaper flooring lived together in harmony for 16 years and it never happened. I'll post whatever the manufacturer says.

 

[Kaizen]

are you in a really humid area where the tank sweats that much? How is the main drain laid out in relaiton to this toilet? Is this the lowest point with others above where a downstream clog could be backing up? Wax rings are not built to handle pressure and when you pull it off its hard to tell at that point if it was already seperated.

 

[BurtEggley]

are you in a really humid area where the tank sweats that much? How is the main drain laid out in relaiton to this toilet? Is this the lowest point with others above where a downstream clog could be backing up? Wax rings are not built to handle pressure and when you pull it off its hard to tell at that point if it was already seperated.

50% humidity in the house typically. I even let the wax ring sit in the house for a day to warm up before installing it. It also collapsed normally when I set the toilet. I suspect it will look fine when the toilet is removed.

 

[BurtEggley]

As an update and to close out this thread, my flooring guy looked at it and made some calls. The consensus is that only solvents of some kind could have caused the stain migration in that type flooring. It is supposed to be impervious to water on both sides and also the closed cell foam core. Nothing that we can think of meets that description. Plumber is coming out next week to discuss it. I opened a thread on cutting and replacing the concrete around the toilets in General Garage Discussion. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/concrete-slab-repair.555685/

 

[Codyboy]

Are the bolts that hold the tank to the bowl crusty/rusty and damp?
Yeah I saw that thread on busting out concrete.
What will that solve?

 

[BillK]

To be honest with you it might be different in person but it almost looks like part of the pattern in the floor. Don't know if I would have ever noticed it if you had not pointed it out. Since you have extra floor maybe try putting some cleaners on a piece and see if it stains ?

 

[BurtEggley]

the stain is IN the flooring and migrating outwards thru the medium. We have the same pattern in the kitchen and no where in it is the stain. If you were a home inspector you would list it for sure.

 

[BurtEggley]

We pulled up the flooring. The area around the flange was concreted to level the area. As I recall, some kind of fast drying cement. It is darker than the concrete poured in 1979. This was done maybe 28 - 30 years ago. There was white residue on top, almost like dried spackle. Could have been that or some paper backing on the old flooring pulled off from the prior install. The moisture appears to have pulled pigment from that concrete area into the flooring. We used an angle grinder to polish the area clean of anything on the concrete and put down new flooring. If it happens again, the only solution will be tile.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

the stain is IN the flooring and migrating outwards thru the medium. We have the same pattern in the kitchen and no where in it is the stain. If you were a home inspector you would list it for sure.

I am an inspector and I would definitely "flag it" as a failed seal or a cracked toilet.…….. This area may appear to be dry but have you checked it with a moisture meter?

A few questions:
Do you clean your own toilets or do you have a house keeper that gets aggressive?
Do you have any male guests that could be "missing the bowl"……. Old men and little boys do this!
Tank sweating from high humidity?
A failed tank to bowl rubber ring?
A person leaning back or moving the tank?
Any stench from the stain?
Over weight person sitting then "rocking while wiping" ?
Failing rubber "gaskets" around tank bolts?

 

[BurtEggley]

thank you for the suggestions. In answer to your questions, Lady of the house uses that toilet. It did not rock. I was a machinist and mechanic at one time, with trained senses to feel even the slightest movement. We clean. Toilets are Kohler from 1998 or so. They get plugged sometimes and have to be plunged. I can't see how that would be pressure to break the wax seal, because the drain pipe is empty and dry below that, but it could be. The seal if under the outlet hole in the toilet so there should be zero pressure there. We are replacing the Kohler ones with new Toto Drake units. Tank can sweat although this is not a high humidity area, and we do monitor the house humidity, especially in winter during rainy season. No stench. The concrete was dark gray from moisture but it has dried now so the moisture was coming from the toilet we think. The dogs get bathed in the tub next to it, so one concern was that the other half might have allowed the nozzle to splash water at the back of the toilet then run under it. But since both bathrooms are doing it, hard to think it is that. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that at close to 30 years old, the porcelain has broken down, allowing migration of moisture thru the bowl underside, especially when a plunger is used. There were no visible cracks or lines, no water stains in the underside. I used to inspect heads and engine blocks for cracks, so I know what minute cracks can look like.

I am pretty sure that the concrete that leveled that area is hydraulic cement. That is hygroscopic as a powder but not supposed to be after curing. The stain matched the outline of the leveling cement. It may be it made better contact, I don't know. Both the plumber and vinyl guy have a lot of experience, and they studied it too. They are also puzzled. In favor of an outside source, is that the flange was dry between the seal and flange near the center, but it got wetter the closer to the outside of the wax seal one looked. That would imply moisture was exterior to the wax seal. Where? The rest of the floor and wall are dry. Maybe I will carry a humidity meter into the area and see if one area is higher. Don't know if mine is that sensitive. I also used a bore scope to inspect the elbow and pipe for missing ABS, cracks etc.. My plumber scoped the whole house a couple years ago and all seemed Ok. Concrete is dry with flooring up, or carpet up.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

My condolences to Bert on this mystery!…….. Very frustrating!
Replacing the toilet along with a good wax seal would be my choice and this would be an investment for the future. A 25- 30 year old "water saver" toilet is outdated and the new toilets are designed to flush completely. I have toured a few times (over the last 20 years) the American Standard testing facility in Piscataway, NJ and it is amazing the engineering and testing that goes into a toilet. The American Standard Champion is tested over and over again by flushing golf balls. I replaced ALL my 25 year old water savers that clogged on a regular basis with the American Standard Champion and never had to plunge a toilet again…….. Buy and install with confidence!

The Champion Toilet

The Champion line of toilets meet the highest industry standard for flush performance. These premier toilets virtually eliminate clogs, while the low-consumption toilet uses 20% less water than traditional toilets to help conserve water.

www.americanstandard-us.com

 

[FullRaceMerc]

The seal if under the outlet hole in the toilet so there should be zero pressure there.

Are you using the wax seal with the plastic horn? I've quit using those in favor of the wax ring only. No reason for a funnel to direct a 2" opening into a 4" pipe. It can be a point of restriction, or cause years of unnecessary splashing against the wax.

 

[BurtEggley]

Are you using the wax seal with the plastic horn? I've quit using those in favor of the wax ring only. No reason for a funnel to direct a 2" opening into a 4" pipe. It can be a point of restriction, or cause years of unnecessary splashing against the wax.

extra thick wax ring last time, best Ferguson had. It was room temp and I used straws over the bolts to get the location as it was set down. This time the plumber is setting it. No horn this last time, but one the time before. Both leaked but this time worse and quicker. That leads me to believe the toilet is letting moisture thru but the plumber says impossible. Once the clay is fired moisture cannot seep thru. The porcelain on the inside of the bowl is worn out because it is dull and matte, and it gets mold in a couple days.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

extra thick wax ring last time, best Ferguson had. It was room temp and I used straws over the bolts to get the location as it was set down. This time the plumber is setting it. No horn this last time, but one the time before. Both leaked but this time worse and quicker. That leads me to believe the toilet is letting moisture thru but the plumber says impossible. Once the clay is fired moisture cannot seep thru. The porcelain on the inside of the bowl is worn out because it is dull and matte, and it gets mold in a couple days.

The glaze is "toast" and the ceramic is now porous……….. Time for a new toilet.

 

[BurtEggley]

that is what I am thinking, the humidity filters thru it and condenses under it. That is why the area between the wax and flange was dry but outside it wet. As I indicated, there are two Toto Drake toilets waiting to be installed tomorrow. Using the plunger created pressure in the passage that helps moisture move thru the ceramic. But since there are no stains or flourescence on the underside, I am not 100% sure this is the cause.

 

[FullRaceMerc]

Do you still have the old toilets? I would think you could set them up on sawhorses, fill them with water, then use the moisture meter underneath to see if moisture is migrating thru the worn glaze. It wouldn't need to be much, since that's a trapped location

 

[BurtEggley]

Do you still have the old toilets? I would think you could set them up on sawhorses, fill them with water, then use the moisture meter underneath to see if moisture is migrating thru the worn glaze. It wouldn't need to be much, since that's a trapped location

Interesting idea. Depends on how the arthritis in my back feels tomorrow. Maybe my plumber can set it up for me as an experiment.

 

[BurtEggley]

Mystery may be solved. Didn't even have to put one up on saw horses. These were pressure washed free of all dirt etc., 2 years ago before they were put back on. There is no reason there should be signs of water drips on the inside surface. I believe that the porcelain wore out and let water migrate. The drain is lower than these areas so water did not run uphill from the wax seal.

 

[dscheidt]

Mystery may be solved. Didn't even have to put one up on saw horses. These were pressure washed free of all dirt etc., 2 years ago before they were put back on. There is no reason there should be signs of water drips on the inside surface. I believe that the porcelain wore out and let water migrate. The drain is lower than these areas so water did not run uphill from the wax seal.

I recently replaced a kohler toilet of similar vintage because the tank was leaking. I didn’t see any cracks, it just seemed to be porous. I also didn’t spend any time trying to figure it out, because I hated the thing….